The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on February 20, 2011, 06:53:40 PM
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I started to place this in the rifle forum, but its purpose is for "tactical" issues not hunting. Let me state from the start I'm not a hunter, so I am not taking a position. I just think this might be something hunters on this board may find interesting.
The podcast is very short (< 3 mins) so this is an easy listen:
http://traffic.libsyn.com/guntalk/Magnum_rifles_2.15.11.mp3
-FA
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Yes, interesting...
I've never used anything other than a .30-30 or .32 Winchester for deer, never had need for anything else. My brother used a .30-06 but for where we hunted, it wasn't really needed.
Magnums might have their place where dangerous game is present but I'd suspect it's unnecessary in North America.
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What does need have to do with it ?
Technically, for hunters , no, you don't need a magnum caliber.
But for for all shooters, if they want one it's no business of any one but themselves and their dealer.
I posted the above before listening to the podcast, first time I tried it locked up my computer.
Now I understand the point, I would agree with TG that the object is a clean kill, not seeing how much abuse you can inflict on yourself.
I have a prejudice for .30 caliber so I would stick with 7.62X39 or .308 due to cheap surplus practice ammo, but I grew up with every one having a 30/30.
This crap of every body needing a 300 Win Mag to go squirrel hunting is nothing more than marketing hype. I've been around hunters my entire life and with two exceptions none even owned anything larger than .308 .
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Speaking of not needing something. My SIL recently bought a rifle in .270 WSM.
He buys the fun stuff and I get to shoot it! ;D ;D
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Unless range is an issue a good rule of thumb is any one carry more than a 30/06 (It does have a cult following though it can't do anything a 308 won't do ) Is the Fudd version of a mall ninja. More concerned with impressing every one with some gun writers latest and greatest than with making a clean kill. Those are usually also the ones who can't shoot for crap but always have an excuse.
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OK. What do y'all think about his statement on the .243? I mentioned this to some friends who are hunters and it was like they thought I had become possessed by a demonic spirit! ;D
Their contention is the caliber is not "potent" enough to the job on whitetail deer. When I mentioned that FL deer are no bigger than large dogs, they wouldn't budge; maybe they shoot deer over in the panhandle (west Florida) where they are a little bigger.
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My uncle used to take deer quite regularly with a .22 LR but he could hit was he was aiming at. It wasn't exactly legal nor was the time of year when he was doing it but he didn't miss.
I suspect it's more than enough for whitetail but I'm no expert either. Probably up around 3000 FPS and 2000lbs of energy, do the math...
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My first and currently only hunting rifle is a .270 WSM. I have shot several deer with it and farthest any one of them has run is about 30 feet; most drop in place. Do I think it's necessary to have a magnum for deer hunting, no. However, the recoil from my rifle isn't that bad, and I like it. The main advantage to short magnums and similar is that you get a powerful round in a smaller lighter rifle.
I do wish I had a more common caliber, .270 or .308 etc., when ammo gets low.
I agree with the guy in the podcast in that hitting the target accurately is the most important thing.
I really don't care what folks use to hunt as long as they do it ethically and get children, wives, friends, etc. involved. My employment depends on hunting.
OK. What do y'all think about his statement on the .243? I mentioned this to some friends who are hunters and it was like they thought I had become possessed by a demonic spirit! ;D
Their contention is the caliber is not "potent" enough to the job on whitetail deer. When I mentioned that FL deer are no bigger than large dogs, they wouldn't budge; maybe they shoot deer over in the panhandle (west Florida) where they are a little bigger.
It's should be more than enough in the South, but I personally like larger calibers. It should be a great rifle for women and children.
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I think hunting women and children is illegal in most parts of the country!
;D ;D
Just kidding pal!
;)
Time for bed...
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I don't want or need a mag, more so when its in a ultra light weigth rifle...
cracks me up to see a 5lb 300 win mag...
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I think hunting women and children is illegal in most parts of the country!
;D ;D
Just kidding pal!
;)
Time for bed...
In what part is it not illegal? ???
And, don't we spend most of our lives "hunting" women? ;) ;D
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In what part is it not illegal? ???
Newark, NJ...
:D
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Newark, NJ...
:D
Learn something new every day.
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i personally dont care what others think I need to hunt with. Soemtimes I get the urge to use a 300 win mag with 110 v-max at around 3700 fps for coyotes. But then again the next day I might use a 223 for deer. just pick your flavor and hunt.
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I think magnums are overkill for most of North America. If I was hunting mountainous terran, with long range shots the norm, then I'd probably want one. But for the areas I hunt, 30-06 is more than enough.
If you got it, and you're happy with it, enough said.
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My recommendation to people is handle guns, and find one that is comfortable. Next is to shoot guns, and shoot the most powerful you can comfortably shoot.
All of that said there are sizes, both large and small, that are the limits for game. I know many people take a lot of deer with .22 centerfire. However I wouldn't go below .270. Heavier bullet is more what I'm looking at over diameter. The other end of the spectrum is looking at a sub 100 yard shot with .30 caliber. Do you really need a magnum? And as you shorten the range will a magnum actually add speed that does not allow even the best bullet to expand and do its job? For most game in the contiguous 48 I feel a .30-06 or .308 would be the best all around. I have often wondered what would happen in our under 200 yard hunting if we could get a 180 grain .270 ::) (Not having to having the last name Gresham and worrying about sponsor money I can ask stupid stuff like that)
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Myself, I've never had to use anything bigger than 8mm Mauser.
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Why 180 grain? ;D I have yet to met a deer or hog that I couldn't drop in one shot from a .270 Ruger M77 with 130 grain Remington soft points, and the total is probably around thirty. That's not bragging on me as a marksman, as`I don't like to shoot over 100 yards for personal reasons (just what makes the game fun to me, you play it your way). Still the rifle and el cheapo cartridge works well. If elk were on the menu, I'd be right there with you with the 30-06 and 180 grains. Hell, the only reason I own a .270 rather than an '06 is because that's what the gun shop had in the day I chose to buy, and I didn't think there was anything in Texas it wouldn't kill. ;)
Lets get back to the OP. Do you want a magnum for TACTICAL, not hunting purposes? Well, what is a magnum? Its basically a way to get more powder than normal behind a standard grade bullet be that 7mm, .38 (.357 mag), .44 (.44 mag), .30 (.300 win mag) etc. Why do you do that? You do it for greater velocity and more foot pounds delivered. But do you need it? Tactically, you are looking at taking down a 200 pound mammal inside of 500 yards unless you are playing in a whole different leauge (hell, playing a dfferent sport) than most of us. Surveys says no, you don't need one. Will .300 mag or 7mm mag work as a sniper weapon? Hell yes. Will you get the same results with less bang and recoil with .308 or .270, or .762x54? Pretty much. So unless you want to shoot far and flat, which means a small bullet and lots of powder, leave the mags alone. If you need this, the not so pacifist Quaker would suggest a 7mm mag, .300 Win mag and .338 Lapua in reverse order. Otherwise, I think my 130 grain .270s are enough to keep someone off the lawn and venison in the freezer. ;D
FQ13
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Never shot a .243 but according to NH game laws .223 is big enough for our 200 Lb white tails. And while I would not do it I know of several old time poachers that swore by 22LR.
BODEAN, you obviously made the same mistake I did and answered the title of the thread.
Listen to the podcast he linked. It's not about "Do people need magnum rifles", the point is" is it sensible to kill mosquito's with a cannon".
FQ, listen to the podcast before you start pontificating. He's talking about for hunting, Where did you wander off into all this tactical and gaming crap ?
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Never shot a .243 but according to NH game laws .223 is big enough for our 200 Lb white tails. And while I would not do it I know of several old time poachers that swore by 22LR.
BODEAN, you obviously made the same mistake I did and answered the title of the thread.
Listen to the podcast he linked. It's not about "Do people need magnum rifles", the point is" is it sensible to kill mosquito's with a cannon".
FQ, listen to the podcast before you start pontificating.
I was listening to the OP. Reread FAs post. The podcast was spot on. FA saidf he wasn't a hunter and wanted advice for tactical stuff. I addressed the podcast and M58's very good points in thefirst part. The second was devoted to the OP. Do you need a magnum in tactical applications? My less than expert opnion is that inside of 500 yards the answer is no. No pontificating, just answering a question to the best of my ability. ;)
FQ13
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I was listening to the OP. Reread FAs post. The podcast was spot on. FA saidf he wasn't a hunter and wanted advice for tactical stuff. I addressed the podcast and M58's very good points in thefirst part. The second was devoted to the OP. Do you need a magnum in tactical applications? My less than expert opnion is that inside of 500 yards the answer is no. No pontificating, just answering a question to the best of my ability. ;)
FQ13
He didn't say he was looking for advice for tactical stuff. He said he was originally going to post in the rifle section of the forum, but IT'S for tactical stuff. which is why he placed it in the Downrange Cafe. You did get the part about him not being a hunter correct, though.
I started to place this in the rifle forum, but its purpose is for "tactical" issues not hunting. Let me state from the start I'm not a hunter, so I am not taking a position. I just think this might be something hunters on this board may find interesting.
The podcast is very short (< 3 mins) so this is an easy listen:
http://traffic.libsyn.com/guntalk/Magnum_rifles_2.15.11.mp3
-FA
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Why 180 grain? ;D I have yet to met a deer or hog that I couldn't drop in one shot from a .270 Ruger M77 with 130 grain Remington soft points, and the total is probably around thirty.
.270 in 180 grain would be a heavy slow moving mass that would hit hard and be slow enough to expand early, and it would do so with less recoil that the 165 grain .30 calibers. The biggest thing I see with the fast moving bullets is that on 100 yard and under shots they pass through black bear, deer, elk and moose too easily. Pass through means tracking. Whitetails aren't a big issue, but I have friends that spend a day and a half tracking a moose in the Boundary Waters a few years back. It was a lung shot with a .270 that didn't expand. It took three more shots to put it down (once they hit the heart it dropped). When they dressed the moose out they could not find more than a very small channel where the bullet cut through, and the lack of size and damage told them the bullets weren't expanding. I don't recall what brand, but these guys use quality stuff.
I haven't taken the the muzzleloader to the chrony, but those .250 grain bullets with one Hogdon pellet will drop a whitetail where it stands with no pass through.
That is my train of thought on this.
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.270 in 180 grain would be a heavy slow moving mass that would hit hard and be slow enough to expand early, and it would do so with less recoil that the 165 grain .30 calibers. The biggest thing I see with the fast moving bullets is that on 100 yard and under shots they pass through black bear, deer, elk and moose too easily. Pass through means tracking. Whitetails aren't a big issue, but I have friends that spend a day and a half tracking a moose in the Boundary Waters a few years back. It was a lung shot with a .270 that didn't expand. It took three more shots to put it down (once they hit the heart it dropped). When they dressed the moose out they could not find more than a very small channel where the bullet cut through, and the lack of size and damage told them the bullets weren't expanding. I don't recall what brand, but these guys use quality stuff.
I haven't taken the the muzzleloader to the chrony, but those .250 grain bullets with one Hogdon pellet will drop a whitetail where it stands with no pass through.
That is my train of thought on this.
I agree with your points. I would say this though. I tend to shoot at 100 yards and under (I just like the stalk). I also have a very nice , but reasonably priced B@L Elite 3000 (about $350 if you can find one on Gunbroker or Ebay, same specs as the Nikon, and better light gathering IMHO) on top of the gun and was lucky enough to get an M77 that will let me hit a coke can seated on my butt at 200 yards. Its not me or the ammo, its the rifle and the glass. Like all Rugers, some are great, some are good enough. I got lucky. It will take a whitetail with one shot. A moose? I'd be shopping for high end Barne's bullets or looking at an '06 or .300 Win Mag. I guess it's about horses for courses. At under 300 yards, the .270 with 130gr soft points will do the job. When I say under, I mean like fifty feet. One shot and dead as a hammer on an 80 pound Texas deer or a 300 pound Florida pig. But if I was shooting at a 500 pound elk or an 800 pound moose? I'd bring a bigger gun. If I'm shooting at you as FA implied (I might have misunderstood his post)? Well, I'm happy where I am. My. .270 will keep him busy :-\ :-X
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And as you shorten the range will a magnum actually add speed that does not allow even the best bullet to expand and do its job?
No.
Higher velocity will enhance bullet upset at the expense of penetration.
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I compleatly get what he is saying
over here there is NO animal that can not be shot with a 308, from Rabbits to Buffs and everything in between
however it is not a need it is more of a want ;)
OK. What do y'all think about his statement on the .243?
no issue there, I am a big fan of the Pope Cartridge,
just to clarify the Pop Gun
Until I became a regular member of the Australian Hunting Net (AHN), I never realised just how hated and loved the .243 Winchester is amongst the members of that forum. To me, it was always a reliable and readily available cartridge that did the job well on pretty well all Australian game outside the big bovines. The term "Pope Gun" has now become synonymous with the .243 Winchester thanks to the many heated and often humorous and lively discussions on AHN concerning this cartridge. Everybody knows what a Pope Gun is, but the most often asked question is "how did it become to be known as the Pope Gun?"
Well it soon became obvious that people were using their .243's on all creatures great and small from Hares to Bears and it seemed no muff was too tough for the .243. Then it was revealed that Pope John Paul II himself was a regular user of the .243 as he loved to pop Pigeons across the vast courtyards of the Vatican and having survived an earlier assasination attempt, he liked the idea of a cartridge flat enough for the courtyard but with enough grunt to say hello to any non-believers. Seems the Pope was right, the .243 was all anyone needed in this life or the next (and he should know) so the .243 was canonised and is known as the Pope Gun.
Of course the detractors believe none of this, and would have you believe that a Rabbit will often require several follow up shots if a kid's toy like the .243 is used! The subject is a constant source of ongoing amusement on AHN and no doubt provides a good deal of entertainment for both sides of the argument. But on many occasions, those new to shooting and asking for helpful advice find it hard to navigate past the well intentioned but not very helpful responses of the obviously one eyed supporters and detractors. And so, after many requests by members to give a realistic rundown on this cartridge in the AHN journal without the distraction of ongoing arguments....here it is. And just remember this isn't a religious document, just my experience with the Pope Gun.
more of the story at the link ;D
http://www.australianhunting.net/AHN_Journal/Articles/008%20Saint%20Or%20Sinner.htm
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What does need have to do with it ?
However it is not a need it is more of a want.
This sums it all up. No one "needs" to justify ownership of a Magnum rifle anymore than they have to justify the "need" to own a Z-06 Corvette, or a 540 H.P. Shelby Mustang. They are avaliable, they perform well, and they they are fun to shoot. Most cannot extract the range potential from them anymore than most drivers are capable of extracting the performance of many of these high performance cars. That in itself doesn't hamper sales or demand for them.
I own many Magnum rifles up to and including the .50 BMG, even though it is not considered a Magnum in spite of the fact it outperforms most all of them. It takes more discipline to shoot a magnum rifle well because there is more to deal with in terms of recoil and blast. I find that to be challenging when compared to shooting group after group with a .223. Simply put, Magnum rifles, again much like high performance automobiles, put some excitement back into life. Life is short enough without having to live it boring. Magnum rifles, fast cars, and hot women all help prevent that. Bill T.
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This sums it all up. No one "needs" to justify ownership of a Magnum rifle any firearm
well I still need to every time I want to.. :(
I own many Magnum rifles up to and including the .50 BMG,
and that is why I hate you :P
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Life is short enough without having to live it boring. . Bill T.
There used to be a commercial on the hunting shows for an air carving tool based on a dentist drill that used the tag line: "Life is too short to hunt with a boring gun."
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Never shot a .243 but according to NH game laws .223 is big enough for our 200 Lb white tails. And while I would not do it I know of several old time poachers that swore by 22LR.
BODEAN, you obviously made the same mistake I did and answered the title of the thread.
Listen to the podcast he linked. It's not about "Do people need magnum rifles", the point is" is it sensible to kill mosquito's with a cannon".
FQ, listen to the podcast before you start pontificating. He's talking about for hunting, Where did you wander off into all this tactical and gaming crap ?
If I want to use a magnum to kill a mosquito thats my choice. Do I need the magnum to do it? No, but I will use it. Life is too short to use what everyone thinks you should use to hunt when you want to use something else.
As far as I am concerned the only difference between hunting and the tactical is that your game is on two feet and can shoot back. I would go for the biggest thing I can handle and it would be a magnum. If i ever had to use it, i would want the guy next to him saying "What the f*** was that. Im getting the hell outa here."
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Phil and Bill, You are not saying anything I did not say in my first post.
THEN I LISTENED TO Gresham's PODCAST.
It has nothing to do with ownership, it is about the PRACTICALITY of using hugely recoiling cannons, when most people shoot much better, and have a much better chance of a clean kill, with lighter recoiling calibers.
The answer to what the OP ACTUALLY is asking is NO, if all you have is Grand Dad's 30/30 You have all the rifle you need TO MAKE A CLEAN ( humane ) KILL. You do not need to beat yourself up with with a .50 BMG to drop Bambi.
Obviously there are exceptions for long range, or African game.
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Obviously there are exceptions for long range, or African game.
This was going to be my ONLY point. As a long range shooter, I am hugely interested in a .338 LM. Simply for the fact that you can get accuracy out to a mile. From a tactical standpoint, this is a good thing. For me this would be a play gun and I would never hunt with it, as the terminal ballistics would destroy anything that I would hunt. I agree with you about having a lighter recoil help with accuracy. Although as an experienced shooter I have learned to compensate for recoil. This is not a rifle that I would recommend for a new shooter, or a hunter. But if you dropped me into Afghanistan tomorrow, I would give my left nut for a .338.
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If I want to use a magnum to kill a mosquito thats my choice. Do I need the magnum to do it? No, but I will use it. Life is too short to use what everyone thinks you should use to hunt when you want to use something else.
As far as I am concerned the only difference between hunting and the tactical is that your game is on two feet and can shoot back. I would go for the biggest thing I can handle and it would be a magnum. If i ever had to use it, i would want the guy next to him saying "What the f*** was that. Im getting the hell outa here."
And THAT is the point.
There is another thing you are ignoring, An ethical hunter goes for the cleanest kill possible. In a "tactical situation if your recoil induced flinch means you hit Abdul in the balls instead of between the eyes no one much gives a crap.
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And THAT is the point.
There is another thing you are ignoring, An ethical hunter goes for the cleanest kill possible. In a "tactical situation if your recoil induced flinch means you hit Abdul in the balls instead of between the eyes no one much gives a crap.
if i flinched that bad I wouldnt use it for either purpose. If I made a bad shot I would rather it be with a magnum. I give a crap because I didnt hit where I was aiming and the next time it could be a complete miss. I think i stated that wrong. I want to use a magnum therefore i need a magnum.
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If we support the, ".243 is all you need" philosophy, we would all be driving 4 cylinder Ford Focus's as well. We don't. Bill T.
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If we support the, ".243 is all you need" philosophy, we would all be driving 4 cylinder Ford Focus's as well. We don't. Bill T.
Here is what I want to know: How do you and KPR ever make it out to shoot? If I had your gun rooms I'd never make it out the door. 8 hours later I'd still be standing there scratching my head going "which one do I want to play with today?"
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If we support the, ".243 is all you need" philosophy, we would all be driving 4 cylinder Ford Focus's as well. We don't. Bill T.
Need is a relative word Bill. The point of the podcast is to let people know that "what you need" is both easily manageable and cheap, if all you want to do is put venison in the freezer. Too many folks think they need the latest magnum whackinator done up in cammo with a hideously expensive piece of glass on it to go hunting. The point was to say "Relax, that $300 savage with a Simmons scope or your gandad's old 30-30 with iron sights is just fine". Its like me and my computer search. I know I COULD buy some $2k wonder machine that would let me fly a preadator drone, but its nice to hear someone say "you really don't need that, here's a nice one for $500". Beyond that, its what your wallet and recoil tolerance will take.
FQ13 who is not hating magnums, I just think its nice to remind newbies, and reremind us older folks who sometimes suffer from the "Igottahaveit" syndrome that simpler will work just fine.
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Need is a relative word Bill. The point of the podcast is to let people know that "what you need" is both easily manageable and cheap, if all you want to do is put venison in the freezer. FQ13
Most all meat hunters already know that. Car enthusiasts drive high powered, expensive automobiles. Gun enthusiasts shoot big, expensive, high powered rifles. It's that way with most everything. The reason you see so many flashbulbs going off in the stands at football games, is because there are so many people there with $75.00 cameras who just want a picture. It's the pros on the sidelines who have the $3,000.00 cameras with the $7,000.00 lenses attached. Bill T.
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Don't bother FQ, They can't grasp the concept .
You and I are stupid because we can't can't comprehend that you just can't get the job done with out spending a small fortune on what this months gun magazines are claiming is the latest greatest.
Funny part is that a lot of Buffalo (13 MILLION in 2 years ) were taken with black powder, quite a few with black powder PISTOLS.
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Don't bother FQ, They can't grasp the concept .
You and I are stupid because we can't can't comprehend that you just can't get the job done with out spending a small fortune on what this months gun magazines are claiming is the latest greatest.
Funny part is that a lot of Buffalo (13 MILLION in 2 years ) were taken with black powder, quite a few with black powder PISTOLS.
I grasp the concept. I'm going to use whatever round i want to use.Dont take this the wrong way but I dont care what someone on the internet said I need or should use. If i want to spend 3 or 4 dollars a round on a weatherby i will. ( but i dont, its cheaper to reload). i dont know what you have against magnums but I have never saide everyone should use them. All i have said is to use what you want and not worry about what someone else believes you should use.If balckpowder is your thing then use it. The most importatnt part is that your outside and hunting.
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Bodean, I'll put this in little words, use whatever the f*ck you want, it is not necessary to use magnum rounds. that is a matter of your choice which has nothing to do with the first post.
No body gives a crap what you want to use, The post was about can you get the damned job done with a smaller round.
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Grab ya a beer and calm down. I've got mine its a tall boy (the magnum of beers). i was just discussin my point of view.
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Mom's not even gone for a whole day and you guys are fighting already?
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Mom's not even gone for a whole day and you guys are fighting already?
Told Phil he should have installed a mud wrestling cage in the corner.
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I get pissy when I have to say basically the same thing thing over and over.
Do I want to shoot a .50 BMG ? Hell yeah, give me an appropriate backstop and I'll shoot off a freaking nuke.
But practicalities of reality mean that I have to make do with less, and I can still get the job done.
Mom's not even gone for a whole day and you guys are fighting already?
Oh quit bitchin', I waited long enough to make sure they didn't forget something and come back ;D
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I get pissy when I have to say basically the same thing thing over and over.
Do I want to shoot a .50 BMG ? Hell yeah, give me an appropriate backstop and I'll shoot off a freaking nuke.
But practicalities of reality mean that I have to make do with less, and I can still get the job done.
Oh quit bitchin', I waited long enough to make sure they didn't forget something and come back ;D
That time of the month? ;D
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I get pissy when I have to say basically the same thing thing over and over.
Do I want to shoot a .50 BMG ? Hell yeah, give me an appropriate backstop and I'll shoot off a freaking nuke.
But practicalities of reality mean that I have to make do with less, and I can still get the job done.
Oh quit bitchin', I waited long enough to make sure they didn't forget something and come back ;D
I see it as more of a challenge to get the job done with something smaller. Due to less penetration and tissue damage. ( as a general rule not an absolute)
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If we support the, ".243 is all you need" philosophy, we would all be driving 4 cylinder Ford Focus's as well. We don't. Bill T.
I do!
;D
It's a real screamer too!
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Grab ya a beer and calm down. I've got mine its a tall boy (the magnum of beers). i was just discussin my point of view.
ROFL on the tall boy thing. I, true to my post, am making do with a normal can. I figured since you'd started, it must be close enough to five o'clock. ;D
FQ13
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When I go the pharmacy, why are all the Magnums always sold out? I gotta get there earlier I guess...
;D
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When I go the pharmacy, why are all the Magnums always sold out? I gotta get there earlier I guess...
;D
I got nothing to add.
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When I go the pharmacy, why are all the Magnums always sold out? I gotta get there earlier I guess...
;D
Go with the magnums!
One of my buddies in college actually did his thesis project on the labeling of condoms. His results: There is absolutely no difference in size. They are all the same. While the design may vary slightly and the thickness of the latex, overall diameter was no different from "normal" to the supposed "magnum". However the sales volume of the magnum has outpaced the normal size. His conclusion was that this was nothing more than a marketing ploy.
"hey baby, I have to use the magnums, cause the other ones just can't contain me" ;)
I was going to say something about thread drift here, but I guess guns to condoms isn't really a stretch.
STFU I caught that as soon as I typed it.
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I get a kick out of this place....
The question posed was, "Do you need a magnum rifle (to hunt with)".
Simple answer is "technically NO!"
But, use what ever the f..k you want....no one cares. If there is any way the BillT could buy a Phalanx CIWS 20mm gun, HE WOULD! He's probably got one already anyway! Maybe two...
Five pages of argument for no good reason...
8)
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But without the argueing, we wouldnt be talking about condums now.
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But without the argueing, we wouldnt be talking about condums now.
True!
Mom left me in charge to moderate and humor is my only ammunition...
;D
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True!
Mom left me in charge to moderate and humor is my only ammunition...
;D
And THAT my friend is why you NEED a magnum! ;D
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And THAT my friend is why you NEED a magnum! ;D
I don't need anything, I have a SIL who will buy just about anything someone tells him he absolutely MUST own. He buys them, I shoot them and pay for ammo.
I'm sure he'll buy the Phalanx soon!
;)
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You and I are stupid because we can't can't comprehend that you just can't get the job done with out spending a small fortune on what this months gun magazines are claiming is the latest greatest.
The cost difference is totally meaningless and not worth mentioning. If you choose a Magnum chambering over a standard one in box stock rifles, the cost is the same, or else $30.00 or so more. Price a Weatherby Mark V DeLuxe, (high end gun) in .30-06, .300 or .340 Weatherby Magnum. Then do the same for a Savage or Remington 700, (low end gun). Scope, bases, rings are all the same. If the ammo cost is double for 2 or 3 boxes you will use on a hunt which includes sighting in, and actual rounds fired at game, it amounts to nothing compared to time off work, motels, meals, gas, guide fees, hunting licenses and tags, meat processing costs, Taxidermy fees, other gear, etc. Choosing a Magnum caliber rifle is the very least of your monitary worries on a hunting trip. It's easier to justify using a Magnum than it is to justify not using one. Cost simply doesn't enter into the equation. At least not enough to make any sort of difference. Bill T.
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Most hunters don't stay in hotels, use guides, need a taxidermist, a butcher or "other gear". Most hunters just throw their gear into the PU and go to the woods.
While a trip you describe SOUNDS interesting, to me it's entirely too extravagant for the "average" hunter. I get just as much enjoyment out of hunting rabbits as I do hunting anything else but then I'm a simple guy.
While I can certainly afford to do more, I find it completely insane what well off people piss away on a hunting trip. I had a boss who went out west to hunt bison. They led the damn animal out of a barn so he could "hunt"!
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I'm all in favor of good hunts (not the canned crap Timothy was talking about :P), but fair chase for wild game. Most hunters do stay in a motel if not a hotel or in a campground (unless you are lucky enough to live within a short srive of a good hunting area). We also tend to send large game to a processor. The fifty to a hundred bucks it costs is less than the amount of meat I'd lose if I did it myself. Skinning is different than being a good butcher. As far as guides and stuff? Its also sometimes cheaper. I'm a big fan of DIY when it comes to hunting and fishing, but I also believe in knowing your limitations. If you are only going to be somewhere a short while, you can't properly scout the area. Plus, you might not have all the gear you need (remember baggage fees and ever tried to rent a 4 wheel drive pickup wih off road tires and the tools needed to get it out of the mud if you get stuck?). Plus if you just bumble around all the money you spent getting there might be wasted. If you can't afford a guide go anyway. But sometimes it is the cheaper option. The last guy I went off shore with charged $350 a day. I liked his boat and asked about the price. He said it was about 40k. I started asking about reliability and such. He said, you know, for the price of the boat you could hire me a hundred times and not pay for fuel repairs, storage or have to clean it up at the ed of the day. Hard to arue with that. ;D
FQ13
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Most hunters don't stay in hotels, use guides, need a taxidermist, a butcher or "other gear". Most hunters just throw their gear into the PU and go to the woods.
While a trip you describe SOUNDS interesting, to me it's entirely too extravagant for the "average" hunter. I get just as much enjoyment out of hunting rabbits as I do hunting anything else but then I'm a simple guy.
+1
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I live in the center of town and some of the best hunting around here is with in walking distance. If I carried a long gun to work I could have bagged moose, deer, bear, and turkey, gees and ducks are so plentiful I could get them with a well thrown rock. Then of course the "Varmints" Fox, woodchuck, and more squirrels than I could carry ammo for.
All within a mile and a half. No one up here uses any of that stuff Bill mentioned, (except the butcher ) Mostly they just throw the 30/30 in the vehicle and keep their eyes open on the way to and from work.
Oh, for you unfortunates, the Magnum condoms are LONGER than regular ones.
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I'm all in favor of good hunts (not the canned crap Timothy was talking about :P), but fair chase for wild game. Most hunters do stay in a motel if not a hotel or in a campground (unless you are lucky enough to live within a short srive of a good hunting area).
FQ13
I have access to private land of 50 acres here in CT, about 1000 in upper Michigan and another 300 in central Missouri. Sure, I'd drive for a day or more but the out of state fees aren't too bad for either and I'm pretty much assured of at least a few pigs in my sights. Both MI and MO have shoot on sight laws for hogs.
My Missouri buddy has been bugging me to come out for a few years now and my oldest (54 years, this June), bestest friend from Michigan is one of the few people I'd trust with my life. I'll get there, just need the time. Hell, I could even go goose hunting in MN with my sister if'n I felt like it.
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I have access to private land of 50 acres here in CT, about 1000 in upper Michigan and another 300 in central Missouri. Sure, I'd drive for a day or more but the out of state fees aren't too bad for either and I'm pretty much assured of at least a few pigs in my sights. Both MI and MO have shoot on sight laws for hogs.
My Missouri buddy has been bugging me to come out for a few years now and my oldest (54 years, this June), bestest friend from Michigan is one of the few people I'd trust with my life. I'll get there, just need the time. Hell, I could even go goose hunting in MN with my sister if'n I felt like it.
If that's the "crazy Liberal" I'd think twice about that one. ;D
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If that's the "crazy Liberal" I'd think twice about that one. ;D
No, she's just crazy like me! Hell, she even voted for "The Body!"...can't stand Senator "Smalley"...Al Frankensense and Mur!
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Back to the question!
Does anyone other than me find it ironic that the guy that asked if we need magnum rifles was......
FullAuto
;D
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Back to the question!
Does anyone other than me find it ironic that the guy that asked if we need magnum rifles was......
FullAuto
;D
Well you have me there, Timothy!! I am guilty as charged.....ROFLMAO..... ;D ;D
Holy Toledo! I never thought this thread would generate this much comment. I certainly learned a bunch from the discussion and I think I need to clarify a few things....
Quaker,
I wasn't asking about tactical applications, just hunting. But your comments about tactical apps was kind of what I was thinking too.
In the podcast, Gresham mentions he owns several magnum rifles; I don't think he was judging anyone for owning one. I think he posted this because he may have been getting questions about buying a magnum rifle from neophytes like me; just my guess....But the point he raised about being able to shoot one well seemed to resonate with me. There's a podcast out there from ProArms (http://proarmspodcast.com/ (http://proarmspodcast.com/)) about a LEO from Indiana that carries 629 for his duty gun - :o He claims anyone can get used to one if they practice long enough; I guess the same applies to a magnum rifle too.
As far as the magnum condoms go, does anyone know what the numbers mean on the condoms. If you don't know it's because you haven't needed to "fully deploy" your prophylactic..... ;)
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Yeah, I was 20 once. We drove out to Colorado from Illinois. I bounced all the way there in the back of a old Mustang that had the leg room of a dog crate built for a poodle. We "ate" at places like Stuckey's and Waffle House. When we got there we slept in a cheap $hit Coleman sleeping bag and froze our asses off. "Breakfast" was a cold potato left on a rock the night before next to the campfire. The next mornings slime on your teeth was washed away by a can of pop in a cooler that didn't need any ice.
Now I'm 58. My back and knees hurt. If there is a hotel within 50 miles, I'll be in it! I want a nice hot breakfast brought to me by a bleached blonde waitress in a short skirt with too much eye makeup, young enough to be my daughter, or grand daughter. I want some guy who's lived there for his whole life with 5 teeth in his entire mouth to show me where the game is. I don't give a rat's ass what he charges me to find it. After I shoot it, I want to pay someone else to haul it out, butcher it, and mount it, and send it to me in a nice, well packed box.
After I get older I will pay for someone to push my old fat ass out in a wheelchair, let the "game" out of the pen, and I'll blast it with my $8,000.00 Super Magnum. Then do the other things. You may call that "spoiled". In reality it is just getting old and having more money than ability. Trust me, we'll all be there some day. Bill T.
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Bill....your four years older than me. I have a artificial hip, broken back, metal face, more scars than a scarecrow, limp like crazy, hurt like hell and I've got plenty of money! I just don't know where my wife put it!
;D
We just have a different perspective of the sport. I'm a no frills kind of guy regardless of what I'm doing. I'm content to do more with less. I'd actually get more enjoyment using a bow because it ain't about how far away you can hit something, it's about how CLOSE you can get before your detected.
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It's about how CLOSE you can get before your detected.
For me it's not close enough! Bill T.
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'Nuther consideration about magnumitis...you gotta have ammo.
Wife called from work about a month ago asking if I knew where one of her coworkers could get 300 Ultramag ammo in Flagstaff.
He hadn't planned very well and had 3 rounds to hunt elk with....the next day. (dumb!) Theoretically, that should be plenty, but he wanted a box to be sure he had enough.
Just about everyplace that sells ammo will have 30-30, 308 and '06. They may not have the means though to stock every new round that hits the marketplace.
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There is zero excuse to go hunting without the proper amount of ammunition. I don't care if you shoot a .30-30 or a .338 Norma. That is like going fishing without enough bait. A .243 wouldn't have saved him from poor preparedness. Bill T.
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'Nuther consideration about magnumitis...you gotta have ammo.
Wife called from work about a month ago asking if I knew where one of her coworkers could get 300 Ultramag ammo in Flagstaff.
He hadn't planned very well and had 3 rounds to hunt elk with....the next day. (dumb!) Theoretically, that should be plenty, but he wanted a box to be sure he had enough.
Just about everyplace that sells ammo will have 30-30, 308 and '06. They may not have the means though to stock every new round that hits the marketplace.
Its because I'm a hunter and still young enough to pile in the truck and drive 500 miles to hunt, more than paranoia, that makes me say if I can't buy ammo at Wally World (or Circle K in Texas , the only place I've ever routinely seen things like .243 and 7mm mag at a covience store ;)), I don't want to own the gun. If you buy one of the usual suspects, you'll always find ammo. Maybe not what you want, but something. Its a big plus in my book. There's always room for the oddball, but cheap and easily found ammo are my first criteria for buying a gun. By no means are they the only one's, and I will buy unusual calibers, or chamberings (I had a 2 1/2 inch Webley and Sons for about ten minutes :-\ :'(), but I am conservative by nature. If I can't make it go bang, I've wasted money.
FQ13
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We don't call it "Sport" up here, we call it getting dinner. ::)
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There is zero excuse to go hunting without the proper amount of ammunition. I don't care if you shoot a .30-30 or a .338 Norma. That is like going fishing without enough bait. A .243 wouldn't have saved him from poor preparedness. Bill T.
Yeah, the guy wasn't prepared, (he was in Phx), but if you have ever flown to a hunt, it's EASY to not get there with ammo or even the guns.
(Or your scivvies.) BTDT.
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There is zero excuse to go hunting without the proper amount of ammunition. I don't care if you shoot a .30-30 or a .338 Norma. That is like going fishing without enough bait. A .243 wouldn't have saved him from poor preparedness. Bill T.
there is no reason not to bring atleast a wallet full( 10 rounds) That way you can check and reset your zero and still have enough ammo for a hunt.
BTW, you only need 1 round to check your zero and at most 2 more to reset it( assuming you are on the paper and do your part shooting.)
Here is how you do it.
lets say you zeroed your rifle at 1" under at 100 yds. Fire a shot at 100 yds, using a stable shooting platform. if you are still 1" under at 100 you are good to go. If you are not, reaim the rifle with the cross hairs at the same point of aim( should be the center of the target). keep the rifle still, adjust the scope so its aiming at the bullet hole. if you still want to be 1" under, adjust out X number of clicks to get you there. Refire the weapon. If you did every thing well, you should be back on zero.
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Call me paranoid but I've always been a freak about ammo. Let's face facts, a gun without ammo is like a car without gasoline in the tank. In short worthless. I've always stockpiled more ammo for my weapons than I'll ever need for any given purpose, be it hunting, target shooting, informal plinking, or just plain blasting in the desert. You can't stockpile gas, but you can ammo quite easily. In the big Super Magnums you can keep enough in a small closet to burn out a barrel. And properly stored the stuff will outlast it's owner.
There is just no excuse, even cost. Some of the highest priced ammunition on the market is for the big Weatherby Magnums and some of the European Express Cartridges like the .416 Rigby. They can cost upward of well over $100.00 for a box of 20. The beauty is you can accumulate it one box at a time. Or else you can buy the brass and dies and handload it yourself. The big Magnums are one of the few cartridges where it actually pays to build them from scratch rather than to save up a bunch of once fired factory brass. Once you do have the brass, they are relatively cheap to shoot. Powder, primers, and bullets are the same, except if you load premium hunting bullets, but again they always cost more regardless of caliber.
Like most people it bothers me to run out and dump a small fortune on ammo. I'll grab as much as possible if a really good deal comes along, but for the most part I'll "average buy", much like a cheap stock that no one wants. 9 MM FMJ is a perfect example of this. We hit Wal-Mart on the average of twice a week. Sometimes more if I'm going to change the oil in the cars, or pick up some weed or bug killer. Every time I do I try to pick up a few boxes of 9 MM as well. You don't notice it so much when you buy it that way, and at the same time you'll be surprised at how much of it you can accumulate over time. I probably have over 10,000 rounds of Federal FMJ from Wal-Mart this way.
I don't know what the future is going to bring price wise when it comes to ammunition cost, but I'm willing to bet it isn't going to be good with inflation hovering over us like a dark cloud. If 9 MM takes a big jump like .22 rimfire and .45 ACP has in recent years, I'll be covered. And in the meantime if I die in a flaming car wreck, the stuff is easy enough to sell off if Melanie chose to do so. Through the years I've heard all of the "I'm out of ammo" stories much like everyone else. I have never run a car, truck, or motorcycle out of gas in over 42 years of driving. I certainly won't ever run a gun out of ammo. It is just too easy not to. Bill T.
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I'm going to give Bill an "atta boy". I don't have his wallet and I don't reload. Still, I can't imagine starting a deer hunt without ten rounds, or a bird hunt without two boxes, giving me 50. I know I'll never fire all those (at least if I'm sober), but still, Its better to have and not need than......, well, that other thing. :P. I just always want extra rounds. If the situation is serious enough that I'm outside with a loaded gun (hunting, targets or SD) I sure as hell don't want to run out of ammo. Skimping on that makes about as mch sense as buying a nice stereo and pimp lights for your car and not getting the oil changed.
FQ13 who might lose a gunfight, but it won't be because I ran out of bullets. ;D
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Unless range is an issue a good rule of thumb is any one carry more than a 30/06 (It does have a cult following though it can't do anything a 308 won't do ) Is the Fudd version of a mall ninja. More concerned with impressing every one with some gun writers latest and greatest than with making a clean kill. Those are usually also the ones who can't shoot for crap but always have an excuse.
HIERATIC - BURN HIM!
wait - the carbon footprint of that ;D
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HIERATIC - BURN HIM!
wait - the carbon footprint of that ;D
I was hoping someone would go there.
The whole purpose of the 308 was to duplicate the performance of the 30/06 out to about 500 yards in a shorter cartridge.
Since they use the same bullet there is no difference between them unless range is a factor.
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I was hoping someone would go there.
The whole purpose of the 308 was to duplicate the performance of the 30/06 out to about 500 yards in a shorter cartridge.
Since they use the same bullet there is no difference between them unless range is a factor.
A pox on ewe ;D
of course you're absolutely correct - consider if the BAR and the M1 Garand had been .308 vs 30-06
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After the war the Navy converted several thousand Garand's to .308 and the Berreta BM 59 is nothing more than a .308 Garand adapted with a detachable box magazine. Also, the BAR was converted to .308 and widely used up to the early years of the Vietnam war. On top of that, nearly all the countries we supplied with surplus weapons converted them to NATO standard 7.62 X51.
Parts kits for the BAR when you can find them, are generally available in either caliber and Classic Arms offers M1 clips for 30/06, .308 and .243.