The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on February 21, 2011, 07:28:15 AM
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http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/article_142cfb8b-22bb-5a66-8631-48fcb2f1ec27.html
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/02/20/20110220arizona-rifle-sale-law.html
This is all over the papers here. There was even a cover story yesterday in the Sunday Arizona Republic. The owner of Lone Wolf Trading Company admits he's working with the ATF on helping to sting these guys, so it's totally silly the way the media is trying to spin the whole thing like it's so easy to buy large numbers of guns for straw resale.
I've been to Lone Wolf, and have even bought a few guns from him. It's a small operation with pretty good people. I can't imagine a mexican walking in there with $40,000.00 cash and buying 80 AK-47's, and walking out the door like it was nothing. That would never happen without the ATF being involved from the get go. The guy would lose his FFL, and find himself in jail in a heartbeat. Especially with all of the alleged mexican gunrunning going on. The Republic is a liberal rag, and it's getting old seeing this kind of silly crap on an ongoing basis.
They even published the names of the guys, along with the amount of weapons they bought on what day. The only way they could have gotten that information is off the 4473. The ATF had to be on this from minute one, so I'm not seeing the big story here, except for how they are trying to frame it up like this goes on every day without anyone shrugging a shoulder. A sting is a sting and it should be reported as such. Not like this happens every day like it's nothing. Leave it to the liberal media to distort. Bill T.
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Leave it to the liberal media to distort. Bill T.
I'm confused here, Bill. This surprises you why, 'zackly???? ???
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This part of an ATF 'sting' gone bad that Sen Grassely is investigating.
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I'm confused here, Bill. This surprises you why, 'zackly???? ???
It's a well known fact how the liberal media distorts things. But my God, a fifth grader could see there is more here than what meets the eye. The biggest problem most of these liberal staff writers have that are employed by these socialist newspapers is they think everyone is as dumb as they are. Bill T.
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so you did not do a buy up recently then ???
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The mere fact Lone Wolf is still open for business and operating as a legitimate gun store says everything. A couple of years back the ATF shut down Cavalry Arms for months and confiscated every weapon in the joint, including customer owned rifles, and they were ultimately found to have done nothing wrong. If Lone Wolf, or any other gun shop in the state for that matter, was knowingly doing illegal straw sales, the ATF would shut them down in a New York second. It's the same story with J&G Sales up in Prescott. They turn down multiple sales all the time unless it's a dealer purchase. As the owner of J&G said in the article, "Why don't they go after the people who are actually committing the straw purchases instead of highlighting the dealers?" You know they are, it's just the papers aren't reporting it.
Just last year the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, (i.e. Joe Arpaio), had a large billboard on I-17 that read, "Do a straw gun purchase and get 10 years in jail". Now they, (the newspapers), act like this goes on every day without incident. Bill T.
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These two articles are so left leaning that they are actually laying on their left sides! The Republic article sounds like it was written by the Brady Campaign, and the Star pushes BATF's latest move so boldly that it should have a disclaimer at the bottom that states it is paid for by the Brady Campaign.
As I read the number of guns purchased I can see him getting by with purchase number one. However I do not see the system allowing number two or beyond so quickly. I agree with the comments concerning the sting.
One winter I purchased several guns. I actually purchased a matched pair of handguns from one shop, then two weeks later picked up two different handguns from another shop that had bought out an estate. I then purchased a couple more guns within a month. Between these I picked up my limited gun, but as I recall that purchase had been run through the system two weeks before the first purchase. The matched pair took longer to clear than I expected, and I was asked if I had purchased any guns within the past "five days," "ten days," and then "thirty days." When I purchased the two guns from the estate it took over an hour to get approval. Not denied, but the dealer was told to call back twice, and after verifying things on call number three I was cleared. The two purchases the next month were single gun transfers, but more questions like the matched pair.
That recount is how I know that #1 The system is paying attention to what is going on with transfers, and #2 Can dig back through at least our recent transfers and knows what we are up to out here. The only way I can see that this was allowed to continue is that they were giving this guy enough rope to hang himself, and hopefully take someone with him.
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The only way I can see that this was allowed to continue is that they were giving this guy enough rope to hang himself, and hopefully take someone with him.
I'll bet any amount of money that is exactly what is happening. This is no different than DEA undercover dope deals. They want to nail the guy, any guy, to see where it leads. Who is he buying the guns for? Who will he give them to? How will they be smuggled over the border, and by who? Who's running the operation on this side of the border? Where is the money coming from?
Of course, none of that is being reported. One guy bought a lot of guns................And? Bill T.
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"For advocates of tougher gun control, Patino's purchases represent a shortcoming in federal and state laws that allows people to buy as many rifles as they can carry out the door at a time - without any report to law-enforcement agencies."
How can it "represent a shortcoming" when the guy was caught, arrested, and prosecuted? Sounds to me like everything worked just as it was supposed to. Bill T.
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I've been to Lone Wolf, and have even bought a few guns from him. It's a small operation with pretty good people. I can't imagine a mexican walking in there with $40,000.00 cash and buying 80 AK-47's, and walking out the door like it was nothing.
That comment says a lot right there! Any of us that buy guns and deal with FFLs frequently learns the mindset of the dealer quickly. If you would ask me about the dealers I have dealt with if they would do something legal or illegal I could give you a good idea.
We all hate the restrictions, but there is a difference between the dealers that work within the system to best protect our Rights and the dealers that work the system to make a buck.
I once traded a Parker Wyoming Arms 1911 in 10mm with a dealer. He treated me very fairly, so I was going to support him with more deals. However when I was in his shop looking at guns a month later I noticed my old gun wasn't there. I commented on him turning it over quickly. His reply was that he had a gunshow in the Twin Cities the weekend after our deal, and the "gang bangers" love anything "mm" and a ten is like gold. BIG RED FLAG!!! I went back a few more times, and I talk to him at shows, but the more I talk with him the less comfortable I am with his tactics to move guns. I could be wrong, but I don't need to be tied to someone that may cross the line for a buck.
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M58, if you buy more then 2 or more hand guns with in 7 days at the same FFL, they have to fill out another form and send it strait to the ATF.
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M58, if you buy more then 2 or more hand guns with in 7 days at the same FFL, they have to fill out another form and send it strait to the ATF.
I have heard that, but never asked an FFL about it. One dealer that I deal with will always ask if I have purchased a gun within the last five days and are reluctant to deal if you say yes. I brought that up with the dealer on the two estate guns (they are only two blocks apart), and they explained that the other dealer is over stating the rule and CYAing themselves out of deals.
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I just hope ATF doesn't lose track of these like they did the ones that wound up being used to kill a Border Patrolman.
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I just hope ATF doesn't lose track of these like they did the ones that wound up being used to kill a Border Patrolman.
Guns, what guns, I thought you had the guns ???
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Something is ROTTEN in
Denmark, the ATF. Grassley is fighting a wall of red tape, but won't stop.
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/02/memo-to-atf-grassley-not-impressed-with.html
Wednesday, February 16, 2011
Memo To ATF - Grassley Not Impressed With Your Dog And Pony Show
Senator Chuck Grassley is like a dog after a bone when it comes to investigations. It is a point of pride for the Senator. He even puts this on his website when describing himself:
As Iowa's hired hand in Washington, Grassley immerses himself in the nitty-gritty work of rigorous government oversight. Grassley is a leader when it comes to shedding light on the federal bureaucracy and bringing transparency to the people's business.
In fact, Grassley's whistleblower laws have become the federal government's #1 anti-fraud tool. Thanks to his ongoing legislative victories to protect whistleblowers, taxpayers have gotten back more than $22 billion that would otherwise have been lost to fraud .
So when the ATF sent Asst. Director McDormand and a delegation of ATF heavies to brief Sen. Grassley on Operation Gunrunner, I'm guessing they thought they could blow smoke and he'd buy it. According to an internal report presented at a meeting of Special Agents in Charge, they thought it went well.
Gee, don't see this anywhere in the MSM do you?
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"For advocates of tougher gun control, Patino's purchases represent a shortcoming in federal and state laws that allows people to buy as many rifles as they can carry out the door at a time - without any report to law-enforcement agencies."
How can it "represent a shortcoming" when the guy was caught, arrested, and prosecuted? Sounds to me like everything worked just as it was supposed to. Bill T.
There's no story in the truth.
Another reason why I don't get the Arizona Repulsive. I won't send a nickle to them and I hope they go bankrupt.
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Nothing illegal about buying a truckload of guns. Suspicious, but not illegal.
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We have posters on here that buy them by the case.
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We have posters on here that buy them by the case.
Case? Hell, I thought it was shipping crateS
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I have heard that, but never asked an FFL about it. One dealer that I deal with will always ask if I have purchased a gun within the last five days and are reluctant to deal if you say yes. I brought that up with the dealer on the two estate guns (they are only two blocks apart), and they explained that the other dealer is over stating the rule and CYAing themselves out of deals.
its only if you buy from teh same FFL.
I'd do a bunch of CYA stuff if I was a FFL... way to easy to F up and get screwed.
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So what exactly do they need to file? I've never had to do anything myself.
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no the dealer has to fill it out.
if you read the 4473..
its right between 30(c) and 31
"complete ATF form 3310.4 for multiple purchuse of handguns with in 5 consecutive business days."
here is a link to the form...
http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf
it was 5 not 7.( for some reason I always remember 7 days)
Its only for hand guns.
I hope that cleared things up
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, not a form I need to mess with so outside of the typical questioning of why the hell they need to know what I bought anyway it don't matter.
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straw buyers...
Its been around for longer then I've been alive.
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You know, none of the checks bother me thart much. As long as its cash and carry (ideally concealed carry) if you pass the backrgound check, I can live with it.If you buy ten, maybe they ought to flag you. Its not a problem for you if you are honest (assuming an ideal world, but work with me :-\). What is a problem is guns in the hands of thugs. Its bad because of what thugs do and its bad because it fuels the antis. So yeah, I'll fill out my form, let them run the check and even drop a dime on a dealer I know is selling to straw buyers.(Don't think, but know, is selling to folks he shouldn't be selling to.,I dealt with one when I was living in Maryland. Should have reported his ass, but I was young, stupid and a hard core Libertarian. In hindsight, he was a scum bag. At the time, ideology blinded me. :-\ :-[). Those guys hurt all of us. All I ask is that any law abiding citizen can buy a gun and walk out with it the same day. If the price for that is making sure I'm not a felon or fugitive, I can live with that.
FQ13
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I've purchased multiple handguns from the same dealer, at the same time. No one has ever came knocking on my door because of it, and I really don't care who filled out what forms because of it. They look for certain patterns. A guy buying 50, Raven .25 autos is going to send up a bigger red flag than a guy who buys 2 high end Springfields and a H&K on the same day. Bill T.
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Bill is right to a point. 2 facts remain however, first, it is de facto federal registration of those fire arms, secondly, applying it to long guns is a specific violation of the original law.
American Rifleman has an article on it this month, The title is "Power grab" by Cris Cox.
I'm not going to type all the pertinent portions, read it for yourself.
There is more info on it here http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6291
Seems like it's been shot down.