The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: hodman on March 05, 2008, 12:28:00 PM
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I will begin this by first saying that I am not a 380 ACP hater. I have owned all three of Colt’s (government model, Mustang, Pony) 380’s in addition to several Walther’s and a few other ones that don't even need mentioning here. However, what is brought me to bring this question to the board is all the renewed interest in the 380 caliber as a carry gun. First Ruger, then Karr and I even hear rumblings of Glock are now on the 380 bandwagon (I've actually shot both of the Glock’s in 380 and liked them).
My good friend, Mas Ayoob said to me when I showed him my Colt 380. “That's cute, and it's better than a sharp stick” followed by” friends don't let friends carry mouse guns” this hurt my feelings. So I said, what is it you have against 380? He explained to me that the 380 was a killer, but not a stopper at least not consistently. He said there are many incidences were people shot with 380s will continue to fight and harm you and then bleed out and die 15 to 20 minutes after being shot. His philosophy is that you shoot to stop the threat not kill. After I had this discussion with Mas I ask a friend of mine who was a paramedic on an ambulance in a high crime city, his experiences with the 380 were similar about the effectiveness of 380.
I have since adjusted my carry gun to be a Karr PM9 in a pocket holster. This gives me seven rounds of 9mm +P I supplement that with a Karr P45 carried on the belt or a wilderness packer.
I am very pragmatic and would obviously say that the gun in your pocket beats the gun in the car the gun in the car beats the gun at home and the gun at home beats the gun in the gun safe. So the argument is a 380 or no gun. I guess now I side with 380.
Now, I know that there's going to be the crowd that says either it's all about ammunition. Or it's all about shot placement. I can tell you that I have watched a large animal dropped to the ground with one shot from a Sea Camp 32 firing Silver tips. This was quite impressive, but I wonder how many people have the ability to consistently have the right shot placement in a stress fire environment? I am a confessed shooting school junkie and I shoot most of the handgun disciplines weekly (ICORE, IDPA IPSC, ECT) and I can tell you that the vast majority of shooters don't practice enough to produce cold on demand hits in the vital areas.
So, with all this said, I asked the question, what is the minimum caliber for self defense. And what does that criteria add up to in quantifiable data. I mean do we have a minimum energy coefficient. Or perhaps a sustainable wound cavity in ballistic gelatin or is it penetration in gelatin.
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I firmly believe that anything smaller than .38 or 9mm should not be a primary carry gun. But, I have no problem with a .380 as a bug, the right round and shot placement are important. What you can hit and how many times you can hit it in a high stress situation are key factors. Big heavy slow moving expanding bullets are your friend. Fast small bullets that penetrate are what I would carry in a bug.
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Hodman, I Ithink that you answered your own question (And I aggree!) 9mm +p. I shoot IDPA and I think that I am a pretty fair shot. That being said, I have never been in a gun fight. I don't know if I could make perfect shots in a stressfull situation. I would hope that I could, but I just don't know. That's why I carry a 40 s&w. The answer to the question of small gun or no gun is, I would carry a 22 short if that's all I had.
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My (short) answer?
The minimum caliber is one that you can shoot effectively AND will carry with you ALL OF THE TIME.
My (long) answer?
I carry the P3AT in my pocket always. Would I like maybe a larger caliber, saya 'micro' .45 that is controllable, holds 8 rounds and weighs 15 oz or less? Sure! Tell me where to get it for poor mans money.
Do I feel 'under gunned' with my .380? Nope, cause my shots will be (most likely) from 10 feet and shorter range.
Is shot placement important? Yep, ALWAYS. For as many 'too small a gun' to stop the guy stories you can find, I can find one where a .45 didn't stop a guy either.
I respect Ayoob, Raush, Bane, et al but they are not the be all and end all. I also follow common sense, personal experience, self testing of guns/ammo etc, when forming my opinions
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P3AT4ME2! Always there.
Mac.
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I think everyone pretty much answered the question, carry the largest caliber that you will actually carry.
For me, that's a question I've never been able to adequately answer for myself. I've tried more guns than I like to think about.
In the winter, when I have a heavy coat, I carry a .38 snubbie with +P's. In the summer the best I can do is a Davis derringer in .32ACP. I'd really like to carry my 4" barrel Dan Wesson .357, but that's not going to happen.
What you can carry depends a lot on how you carry, which depends on how you dress, and where you're going. I can carry a good size gun in my coat pocket, but what if I go somewhere where I have to check my coat?
I went to a magic show one time, wore my .45 Colt Officer's in a shoulder holster, under a sport coat. We were sitting in the second row and the magician wanted to take my coat to perform a trick. PANIC I got out of it, but it was embarrassing.
I've bought too many guns because I really wanted that gun, only to find out I really couldn't carry it.
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So Hodman;
You do know this is the single most contentious issue in the entire history of shooting, right????
I have occasionally taken issue with my old friend Mas on this whole mouse gun thingie. I believe that there is no such thing as "stopping power" in the Real World when we talk about handguns. Several factors play into this belief, but the biggest is the collision of bullet and body is the very definition of a chaos event, that is, an event in which there are so many factors acting on the system that it defies both prediction and repeatability.
We ideally rate a bullet's stopping power based on observed incapacitation of subjects hit by said bullet in said Real World. It certainly makes sense to choose caliber and ammo that has worked on the street...the problem is that we start thinking that the caliber/ammo were the decisive factor in the shootout, as opposed to SHOT PLACEMENT. When we say something like "Whammo-Zammo Ammo stopped the subject like he/she was hit by a nuclear cluster bomb in 87.67% of the observed cases," how do we factor in shot placement? The short answer is that we don't. Different law enforcement agencies have different standards of training...I would suppose that LAPD SWAT skews the effectiveness standards for their issue ammo because they know how to shoot real well. It might also be fair to note that people who agonize over their ammo choice probably do a bit more training than the average bear, so you get another set of skewed numbers.
So, shoot the ammo you're the most comfortable with and concentrate on getting the hits. I carry 9mm Hornady TAPS in my two primary carry guns. I am confident that I can deliver 3 very, very quick center mass shots with that gun/ammo combination, as well as a fast follow-up "failure drill."
I tend to think in terms of "personal threat levels." I have organized my life so that my general threat level is pretty low — I live in a small town in a rural area; I work out of the house; I don't drink to excess or frequent bars; I don't frequent prostitutes or purchase illegal drugs; I try to practice what I preach in terms of training and preparedness...ie, if I am out of my house, I am armed. In summertimes shorts and t-shirts around home turf, I tend to carry mouse guns, which I would define as any firearms .38 caliber — including the sainted J-frame revolvers — and less, including .380, 9 X 18 Mak, ,32 H&R Magnum, .32 ACP, .25 and the various flavors of .22 rimfire. It can be the J-frame by the door or one of my .380s in a pocket holster.
When I carry a subcaliber gun, I accept that my TACTICS need to change:
1) My targeting focus moves from center mass to head/neck.
2) Fire until the subject stops
3) Either beat feet and/or continue the fight when your gun is empty and subject has not stopped
We did a fascinating scenario in Portland for SG a few seasons back...the 45-Second Drill, based on the fact that it takes a shot person an average of 45 seconds to "shut down." In the drill, you had to continue fighting for 45 seconds after you'd fired what should have been a good "stopper" — in my case, 3 center mass followed by head shots. The drill taught you not to stand around waiting for a bad guy to fall down like a severed tree limb but to constantly keep either fighting or escaping (or both).
When my personal risk factors increase, my carry strategy changes. For example, when I go into Boulder or Denver — even in shorts — it's time for the gun belt, the regular carry gun in a holster and a spare magazine. If there is anything in the environment that worries me in advance — say I'm going into a notoriously bad section of Denver or driving to a city I've never been to before, I up my personal threat level, which means at the very least a second gun in the pocket and possibly a different carry gun (for instance, I have exchanged my usual Sig Sauer P225 single stack for a P226 9mm with higher capacity magazines. In the worst cases, when I've been forced to travel during times of what I think of as social upheaval, I have added a rifle, either a folding stock Mini 14 or my yellow collapsable-stock AR, to the mix.
On driving trips, I generally use my ridiculous Bond Arms .410/.45 Colt derringer in a radical cross-draw driving holster and my regular carry 9mm and extra ammo in a SafePacker between the seats. That way, I always have a gun on my person, even at a quickie gasoline/burrito stop, which can get me back to the 9mm in the car.
I assume that whatever gun/ammo I am using, it is not going to "stop dead" a determined adversary and I have planned accordingly.
I believe the absolute worst thing you can do is trust your magic bullet, magic caliber, magic whatever. I base this on my understanding of decision-making processes under potentially lethal stress, a field in which I am, perversely, recognized nationally as an expert. If I work from the position that there's no such thing as stopping power, I am not going to be surprised when it turns out I'm right. If the bad person stops like he/she ran into a Terminator on a bad day, all the better for me...it's a bluebird...
Here's the disclaimer — these techniques work for me; they might not work for you (or Mas, who has his own set of proven techniques); objects in the rearview mirror may be closer than they appear...
Michael B
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Hmmm...I'm one of those who believes that rarely will a gunfight arise where you have the luxury of arming yourself for the task at hand. So therefore you go into the fight with the gun that's at hand. That said, my preferred guns in the home are a Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge, a Stag Arms lefty AR, the Glock model 30, Ruger P90, Dan Wesson model 14-2 and my Colt King Cobra loaded with either .357 or .38 +P. Carrying outside the home means I'm packing either the G30 or the King Cobra. I was more than bit disturbed by the FBI report on gun shot stopping power when I read that the .45 ACP (why, all you have to do is hit 'em in the shoulder) brings the same amount of kinetic energy to the human body as a thrown baseball. If I'm not mistaken, I picked the link to the report up here on the Down Range forums. (http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm)
Once I read that report, I realized that if you have to fight, you need two things. First and foremost is the warrior attitude that you will not fail; and second is a firearm that will fire every time you pull the trigger and will shoot where you point it without a lot of compensation. I'm revising my practice drills based on what I learn from Clint Smith each week and am concentrating on being able to stay in the fight until the other guy is no longer a threat. I've also brought my practice distances in to a maximum of 15 yards with a lot more concentration on ten yards to belt-buckle range. The wife and I now practice evasive maneuvers in the parking lot at Sam's Club or the grocery store.
I've been bidding on Browning BDA's on GunBroker and AuctionArms for a while but think I'll go ahead and pick up a pair of LCP's and an ACOG with my stimulus check. There are so many variables to consider that I'd say a choice for carry weapons is a very, very regional decision. Here in Vegas, it's not unusual to see nothing more than a tank top or no top in the summer and nothing more than a light-weight shirt nine months out of the year. I'm sure that's very different from Wisconsin, Minnesota or North Dakota so a year-round heavier power cartridge would make more sense. But with less clothing out here comes less concealment.
So, as always the best advice is old advice. Better to have a gun and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
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All the stopping power in the world won't help if you don't back it up with practice. Thats sound advice. The subjects that are brought up for discussion on DRTV just keep getting better. Keep it coming.
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IMO the gun itself is at least as important as its chambering. For me, most really small guns are out of the question. My hands are just too big for anything much smaller than a J-frame. As a couple of examples, Walther's PPK draws blood in the web of my hand after one or two magazines and I once actually jammed a Beretta mini auto with the meat between thumb and forefinger after just two shots. OUCH! This is one of the reasons why I personally prefer a .38 snubbie to all the smallish self-loaders.
I won't compromise functional reliability. It easily trumps all "stopping power" power concerns. So if I had my choice between a 100% reliable .32 or a 9mm that jams on occasion, the mousegun wins hands-down.
As far as ammunition goes, I'm not convinced we get consistent expansion with most loads under 1000 fps. I've tested lots of pistol rounds in wetpack and water jugs over the years and feel confident in this opinion. A lot of the real world shooting reports appear to back me up in this. To that end I think penetration is key for slower loads. If I were limited to a .32 or .380, I'd very seriously think about using the hottest Ball load I could find. In the .38 snubbie I often carry, it was the 158-grain LSWCHP +P for many years. To my way of thinking if the bullet didn't open up, I'd at least have a good amount of penetration. I've since switched to the 135-grain Speer Gold Dot. It still has more mass than anything available in cartridges smaller than 9x19 while giving good expansion in my backyard test media. From the little I've read on this round, NYPD is pleased with the cartridge's performance since adopting it for BUG use a couple of years ago. That's good enough for me.
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I voted .38 +P. I'm assuming you are talking about the snubbie since most of the other calibers are primarily pocket gun chamberings. In my experience, it's harder to get bullet expansion from a 2" .38 +p than a 3" standard pressure 9mm and rate the 9mm higher than the .38 snub. I do feel fairly comfortable a snub .38+P or a small 9mm will have some "terminal effect".
.22s, .22lr, .25acp, .32acp, .380acp? I've carried most of them comfortably without feeling comforted. The Beretta 950bs in .25acp is a great pistol, for a .25. It's an 8+1 capacity gun, used to carry it with FMJ. 9 rounds is nice, but how many times would I have to fire to stop the threat? Double tap, triple tap, tap, tap tap tap? Shoot it dry then throw the gun at his head? I do admit it is one of the easiest guns in the world to conceal well.
I see some more milk jugs being ventilated in the future...with mouseguns!
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.22 LR : CCI's Stinger and Velocitor fired from 4" M-63 into water filled plastic milk jugs.
Approx. H2O penetrations: Stinger 9", Velocitor 13".
Looks like the Velocitor is designed to expand at rifle velocities.
The smaller the gun and caliber, the more careful you have to be about ammo selection.
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In my opinion, carrying a .25, or .22 LR or .22 Short is worse than not carrying at all, because you FALSELY think you have the means to protect yourself when you are in fact defenseless. .25 and .22 short bullets have been known to bounce off CLOTHES. Yes, I know, The CIA and Mossad use .22's so what. Are you planning to put your popgun against an assailants head and execute him ? Why not just carry a pellet pistol, the ammo is ALOT cheaper, you get just as much protection and they are quiet. .32 or .22 Magnum MIGHT do the job, but it's your LIFE you're protecting, is MIGHT good enough? Use something that will actually give you a chance to survive for crying out loud, never trust your life to anything smaller than a .380, if THAT bounces off an attackers thick skull at least it will give him a concussion.
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I sometimes carry a Sig 232 with +p personal protection rounds with two extra mags. When reasonably concealable I carry an XD9 with similiar ammo and an extra hi cap mag
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I sometimes carry a Sig 232 with +p personal protection rounds with two extra mags. When reasonably concealable I carry an XD9 with similiar ammo and an extra hi cap mag
Yeah, but you're an OUTLAW! ;D
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.22s, .22lr, .25acp, .32acp, .380acp? I've carried most of them comfortably without feeling comforted.
I think this is how I feel with a smaller cal. gun.
Jon
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One of my brother-in-laws shot a guy breaking into his car with a .22 LR pistol. He fired one time (at about 25 to 30 yards from a balcony) , hit the guy in the stomach, and the gentle-crook breaking into the car stopped what he was doing. Then, the thief looked at my brother-in-law and asked him not to fire any more and ran away. I guess anything is better than nothing. Needless to say, I don't mess with him at family get togethers. Myself, I won't carry anything under a .32 acp. I know many famous and not so famous officers in WWII carried Colt .32 acp pocket pistols.
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Hazcat! I resemble that remark ;D
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I know many famous and not so famous officers in WWII carried Colt .32 acp pocket pistols.
How many of them actually needed to USE them ? The thinking behind issuing smaller calibers to Generals etc. was that there was no point wasting real pistol ammo on someones who's assigned weapon was several thousand troops. A .32 may be fine for putting against your head to atone for the loss of a battle but it's not something to trust your life to. Years ago I worked in a sheet metal shop and we used to take disks 2-4 inches in diameter from the Punch press scrap bin for targets, 9mm, .38/.357, .45 would go through 1/16 inch steel, .32 and .30 carbine would not, thats about the thickness of the metal on your car door. By the way, 9mm,.357 Mag, went through 1/4 aluminum plates as well, did not try .38's or .45's that day
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What do ya all think about the 7.62 x 25 round?
Seems good to me and is available as a C&R gun and ammo as cheap as .13 per round.
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I vacillate (sp?) about the 10MM and 5.7 x 28 for full size carry. 5.7 in the mall where background is a big worry as it "won't" do much on the other side of sheetrock....10MM on the road. On a trip...5.56 M4 is always carried when heading back home between Baton Rouge and New Orleans....used to keep an SKS in the truck at all times in New Orleans and actually had to get it out along the interstate in the last century.....we both lived, he left and I stayed with my broken down truck!
Another point...even crack heads wouldn't steal the SKS down in New Orleans....too visible I guess, wouldn't fit in those baggy pants...but leave a pistol or revolver in the car and it's gone within a few months. Also...back in the 80's 1/2 the women I worked with carried guns in their purses. It's worse there now.
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I put my two cents in on a 9mm, however, ...
Marksmanship is what matters. Which is better, a .22lr that you can put ten rounds in a six inch circle from twenty feet, or a 1911 in 45 acp that you couldn't hit with from ten feet? We've practiced at our range with law enforcement that was using 40 s&w. They were shooting at 12" steel. They started at 50' and walked towards it firing all the time. You would be amazed how many didn't hit until they were within 5 to 10 feet. We finally stopped them, because they were using jacketed, and we were afraid they were going to get hit with splatter.
I carry a J frame in .38 +P, and a 1911 in .45 ACP. I also have available a 9 mm (new) and a .40 s&w (that I used to carry). However, the gun that is hidden in our bedroom is a .22 lr. This is a gun that my wife feels very comfortable with, and I would rather have her use a handgun that makes noise than to be more afraid of it than the guy that just kicked in the front door. If she is feeling Romboesque, there is a 12 ga Benelli M1 with 8+1 on the back of the headboard.
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I put my two cents in on a 9mm, however, ...
Marksmanship is what matters. Which is better, a .22lr that you can put ten rounds in a six inch circle from twenty feet, or a 1911 in 45 acp that you couldn't hit with from ten feet? We've practiced at our range with law enforcement that was using 40 s&w. They were shooting at 12" steel. They started at 50' and walked towards it firing all the time. You would be amazed how many didn't hit until they were within 5 to 10 feet. We finally stopped them, because they were using jacketed, and we were afraid they were going to get hit with splatter.
I carry a J frame in .38 +P, and a 1911 in .45 ACP. I also have available a 9 mm (new) and a .40 s&w (that I used to carry). However, the gun that is hidden in our bedroom is a .22 lr. This is a gun that my wife feels very comfortable with, and I would rather have her use a handgun that makes noise than to be more afraid of it than the guy that just kicked in the front door. If she is feeling Romboesque, there is a 12 ga Benelli M1 with 8+1 on the back of the headboard.
+1
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What do ya all think about the 7.62 x 25 round?
Seems good to me and is available as a C&R gun and ammo as cheap as .13 per round.
I personally like this round, I have a box of hollow points in 7.62x25 for my TT-33...
makes for a devastating last shot on wild hogs in texas!!
How about a SR9 chambered in 7.62x25?
I'll take one please!
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A .500 S&W ain`t worth a hoot if`n it`s at home. I carry a P3AT most always. I worked with a guy that got shot in the stomach with a .22 short. He crapped in a bag for three years while they did several surgeries to reconstruct his intestines. He is now a vegetarian. With eight feet of bowels left, he can`t digest meat of any kind!
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The only one I out of that group that I would NOT carry is the 25 acp. I would be fine with any of the others.
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How many times have we heard of well trained police doing the "spray and pray routine" ? In a situation, keeping your "self dicipline" in check, is far harder than one can imagine.I was trained in the Marine Corps and fought in Viet Nam, and although I had exelent training, I can't guarintee if I were on the street, in a shoot out, I could react like I would like to. I think the best was to remedy that is training and constant practice. With self dicipline the caliber won't make too much difference.We are talking about the real world, and if you run up against one of those individuals who murder people for entertainment, they will have the upper hand right off the bat....after all, we are the ones with the morals, right? I just pray to God if I'm in that situation, I still have the self dicipline I once had. So botton line...I agree with most, carry what you feel comfortable with, and maybe seek additional training.Training is like insurance...if you have it, you won't need it, but if you don't.....right!
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I look at it this way, it comes down to what you can shoot and to what you can carry.
Myself I have owned two J-Frames but because of my bear paws I just can not shoot them well enough to count on them if I needed to. Yes I can shoot them but not the same every time. It also comes down to what will you carry, if you have a heavy gun and you leave it home because its hot out (or something like that) it does you no good there.
I have also come down to carrying an OWB holster as all the IWB holsters I have tryed just do not wear on me with out wearing me out due to my body style (yes love handles).
As pointed out in other answers it comes down to what you can shoot and carry well.
Well that's my 2 1/2 cents worth of thoughts on this.
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I will begin this by first saying that I am not a 380 ACP hater. I have owned all three of Colts (government model, Mustang, Pony) 380s in addition to several Walthers and a few other ones that don't even need mentioning here. However, what is brought me to bring this question to the board is all the renewed interest in the 380 caliber as a carry gun. First Ruger, then Karr and I even hear rumblings of Glock are now on the 380 bandwagon (I've actually shot both of the Glocks in 380 and liked them).
My good friend, Mas Ayoob said to me when I showed him my Colt 380. That's cute, and it's better than a sharp stick followed by friends don't let friends carry mouse guns this hurt my feelings. So I said, what is it you have against 380? He explained to me that the 380 was a killer, but not a stopper at least not consistently. He said there are many incidences were people shot with 380s will continue to fight and harm you and then bleed out and die 15 to 20 minutes after being shot. His philosophy is that you shoot to stop the threat not kill. After I had this discussion with Mas I ask a friend of mine who was a paramedic on an ambulance in a high crime city, his experiences with the 380 were similar about the effectiveness of 380.
I have since adjusted my carry gun to be a Karr PM9 in a pocket holster. This gives me seven rounds of 9mm +P I supplement that with a Karr P45 carried on the belt or a wilderness packer.
I am very pragmatic and would obviously say that the gun in your pocket beats the gun in the car the gun in the car beats the gun at home and the gun at home beats the gun in the gun safe. So the argument is a 380 or no gun. I guess now I side with 380.
Now, I know that there's going to be the crowd that says either it's all about ammunition. Or it's all about shot placement. I can tell you that I have watched a large animal dropped to the ground with one shot from a Sea Camp 32 firing Silver tips. This was quite impressive, but I wonder how many people have the ability to consistently have the right shot placement in a stress fire environment? I am a confessed shooting school junkie and I shoot most of the handgun disciplines weekly (ICORE, IDPA IPSC, ECT) and I can tell you that the vast majority of shooters don't practice enough to produce cold on demand hits in the vital areas.
So, with all this said, I asked the question, what is the minimum caliber for self defense. And what does that criteria add up to in quantifiable data. I mean do we have a minimum energy coefficient. Or perhaps a sustainable wound cavity in ballistic gelatin or is it penetration in gelatin.
If it doesn't start with 4 it isn't a "real " gun, it's just a toy.
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I have to say that if I hit you in the right spot with a rock, you will go down!!!
If you are going to spend alot of money on it I would have to say go big. 9mm or .40, however I would go to war with my 10/22 if it was between that and a .45 High Point!!!
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Anything smaller than .38 +P should not be a primary carry gun.
But, your backup gun could be any calibre down to .380 .
I have no problem with a .380 ... you just must understand that
the right round and shot placement are very important.
Vince
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.380 Hey, It was good enough for "Bond, James Bond"!.....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/BondGun.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/bond_gun1.gif)
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A lot of good comments from readers on this topic. There's a whole passel (that's Southern for a lot) of variables, some of which you can't know beforehand. For myself, I'd have to go with the 1st rule of a gunfight - have a gun. That means something that you'll actually carry as close to 100% of your waking hours as possible. Having said that, I'd still like a caliber that might get someone's attention, so I guess a workable trade-off is the .380. However, you can now get 9mm's that are just nearly as small and concealable as the smallest .380, and that's a big step up.
Just keep in mind there are no magic bullets, and don't expect one-shot stops. I enjoyed Clint Smith's comment that he only felt comfortable with the stopping power of a crew served weapon. A hit is always better than a miss, so take your time quick and get that first hit in, then work on fine-tuning your hits or evacuating the area at a high rate of speed.
jk
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More people die from the .22LR does that mean it would be the best carry round?
It just means all guns can do the same things, but it all comes down to placement. If you can't kill a target in self defense that is user error.
Carry what fits the clothing, and nothing larger than what you can handle. I personally carry a .380 in my pocket/back pocket since it can be done in t-shirt and shorts. It is very hot in the south and I don't need extra clothing to hide a gun. If you can't get it done with 7 shots of .380 ACP you'd better invest in good running shoes.
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I agree that it is whatever the person can carry comfortably and effectively use. For me the perfect small yet powerful carry gun is the S & W 640 357 Magnum. Theres no hammer to snag on clothing.
I also like the Sig Sauer 239 chambered in 357 Sig. as far as semi autos go.
Yes, Im a 357 fan.
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.380 Hey, It was good enough for "Bond, James Bond"!.....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/BondGun.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/bond_gun1.gif)
I remember when he reluctantly gave up his Beretta .25 for the "...much more powerful 7.65 millimeter" (a.k.a. .32 ACP). ;D
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Yes, I believe the quote from Q was, "The Walther PPK 7.65 mm, with stopping power like a brick through a pane glass window." Maybe we should be carrying Bricks!
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In Ian Flemings Books it was a Mauser Hsc in 7.65. He carried that for the same reason some of you carry Kel Tec's, A mouse gun is better than no gun.
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The minimum caliber is one that you can shoot effectively AND will carry with you ALL OF THE TIME.
I think Hazcat nailed it in the 4th post in this thread with the above sentence.
If you WILL carry it and can hit with it, it doesn't matter what it is!!!
Gunzines will tell you:
It has to start with a "4" to be a "real" handgun, you need a 338 UltraWideShortMagnum to down a whitetail deer, ad nauseum.....
The 'biggest' truth I've read in a gunzine - "Nobody likes to leak."
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I think Hazcat nailed it in the 4th post in this thread with the above sentence.
If you WILL carry it and can hit with it, it doesn't matter what it is!!!
Gunzines will tell you:
It has to start with a "4" to be a "real" handgun, you need a 338 UltraWideShortMagnum to down a whitetail deer, ad nauseum.....
The 'biggest' truth I've read in a gunzine - "Nobody likes to leak."
Why, thank you, Sir! (http://www.mazeguy.net/outfitted/tophat.gif)
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How small is too small?......... It depends on so many factors. What you are shooting at, where you hit whatever your are shooting at, how close you are to what you are shooting at, what kinda of ammo you were using, etc. etc. If you were close enough to shoot " a bad guy trying to kill you", in the eye for example..a .22lr would work. However, if the "bad guy" was hocked up on meth.. or some of these other more modern/ potent drugs.. that .22 or anything small isn't going to work right away.. and maybe you have to shooting him/her (political correctness..sorry i forgot above lol) in the chest etc.. even some people (that's generic enough) will keep coming after you ..after being hit with a .45acp. How is this possible.. DRUGS.. Ask some veterns from their war experience about enemies charges there after being shot several times.. and they keep coming... Therefore, I would not.. consider anything below a 9mm worthy of a decent chance at saving my life in "kill or be killed" situation. I know it could happen with a .22 for example.. I'm just saying ..day in and day out.. the way the world is now.. I wouldn't rely on anything small than a 9mm on being ideal for a legitimate self defense situation. 9mm/.38 special is the smallest I will ever carry for a defense gun.
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so the votes are in .380 is minimum that most people will trust to cary, i however prefer the time old legend of the 9mm... but when i am unable to cary it.. (currently it has been recalled) i cary a taurus .38 special. however when that is un available i refer to my rossi .357 mag... each of these 3 caliburs are proven to stop most targets, however an individual cracked up on pcp or another adrenalin enhancing narcotic will more than likely continue going until blood loss is to great or until massive system failure... so to go along with michael... to many factors determine what you should cary, it comes down to personel prefense and what you feel safe with
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No caliber is too small, if it is the only thing available, or it is the only thing you can reasonably carry or hide. On your person or off your person. I do have and carry a North American Arms 5 shot mini-revolver, 1st choice NO, something I can put on a string and hang around my neck, YES! Put in a watch pocket of my jeans, YES. As the old saying go's, " Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but barely ". The man I bought it from, carried it in a vinyl eyeglass case, in his front shirt pocket. He glued the lower part of the case together and just left room for the little pistol. Pretty clever. :o
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I'll go along with Hazcat. In Florida it's not always practical to carry concealed unless it's something you can pocket. I carry the P3AT as my primary with a PMC Starfire in the tube and FMJ in the mag. If I can wear a cover garment I'll move up to a 9mm or 38 special.
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No caliber is too small, if it is the only thing available, or it is the only thing you can reasonably carry or hide. On your person or off your person. I do have and carry a North American Arms 5 shot mini-revolver, 1st choice NO, something I can put on a string and hang around my neck, YES! Put in a watch pocket of my jeans, YES. As the old saying go's, " Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but barely ". The man I bought it from, carried it in a vinyl eyeglass case, in his front shirt pocket. He glued the lower part of the case together and just left room for the little pistol. Pretty clever. :o
I'll have to agree with m25operator...check out the following. From the video, it looks like a NAA mini revolver in .22 short. I carry one chambered in .22 Magnum when I can't conceal my CZ 75B.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html (http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html)
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No caliber is too small, if it is the only thing available, or it is the only thing you can reasonably carry or hide. On your person or off your person. I do have and carry a North American Arms 5 shot mini-revolver, 1st choice NO, something I can put on a string and hang around my neck, YES! Put in a watch pocket of my jeans, YES. As the old saying go's, " Better than a sharp stick in the eye, but barely ". The man I bought it from, carried it in a vinyl eyeglass case, in his front shirt pocket. He glued the lower part of the case together and just left room for the little pistol. Pretty clever. :o
+10 & Like the man said, the best gun is the one you will have on you.
Life demands tradeoffs: maybe you have to live in a less than ideal neighborhood for now, maybe you have business that takes you through some nasty areas, or maybe you live on 100 acres of mountain with a nice field of vision and ready made killzones and hardly ever need go beyond a quiet little town.. you make adjustments (as has already been said) to suit your situation.
I mean if we all knew when we would be attacked, we'd all opt to carry enough armament to scare the shorts off of Rambo that day or just not be there when it was supposed to happen. We don't, so we make judgement calls and assess things as we go along as to what to pack, what to keep near, what to leave in the safe that day.
The worst thing would be to get in a habit of just carrying one gun one way; with the awareness here, I'd say nobody on this board is likely to succumb to that, but people do get comfy with their habits. When in Rome, have something that should stop a Roman, and some basic plans.
While the .380 isn't what I'd prefer to have between me and eternity (I want a Seal Team between harm's way and my valuable hide!) it IS what I find I can carry everywhere in all weather, in the launching tube of a P3AT tucked into a pants or shorts pocket.
The .380 is my most basic loadout, but if I am likely to be in a bad area, or if my attire and the weather is friendly, you can bet there's a little something nice and comforting in a .40 S&W near abouts.
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I voted for 9mm or .38 being minimum.
Days past I carried a Kel Tec P32 and was very happy with it. When I began to realize I could carry my G26 in 99 percent of the same situations I realized I was settling for less caliber than I was able to carry.
For my body style, clothing, activities and training the .40 and .45 are the minimum I now carry.
Through many a crime scene and through observed field results I think I am well armed with a .40 but I can get by with the 9mm +p in a pinch.
Sorry mousegun fans,I was once lost but now I am a believer in the "full strength" only carry gun principle.
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By itself, the .380 is minimum.
Were the communist government of my state to allow its subjects to defend themselves, I'd be carrying a P-32 in a pocket as a fast reload for something 9mm.
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My duty gun is a P229 40 S&W. So to keep it simple for me, I carry a P239 in 40 S&W. I did and still do have my Sig P220 in 45 ACP, but it is a little more difficult to conceal.
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I personally use 9mm as my cut-off for personal defense. That said, any of the choices would be better than nothing.
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Any caliber is better than no caliber, but the question of what is too small should be on your mind when you purchase the firearm. I just purchased a 50 year old 25ACP, but only as a collector piece. 38+P or 380 would be the absolute minimum to bet your life on, in any situation.
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I guess it would depend on why I am carrying it. Going fishing at the pond, a 22LR or 22WMR is fine, will take care of the snakes and other like things. The .32ACP was used by many countries for military and police duty and you can get ammo just about anywhere, so I vote for the .32ACP
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No minimum on the "BackupCarryGun", but your "PrimaryCarryGun" should start with a 4 IMHO. As you can see, I always carry two, one in the pocket (RugerLCP) and one wherever I can find room that day (Taurus PT145).
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I would generally say that I fall into the 9/38 minimum group, but sometimes whatever you'll carry is most important. I'm a little excited about the Ruger SP101 in 327 mag., but being that I'm in Kalifornia, I might never see one. I hope it gets a chance to catch on.
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As Michael does, the gun I carry is based upon my personal threat assessment for any given day. My normal every day carry gun is a 9mm Kel-Tec P11. This is a very easily concealable weapon whether it's carried in an inside the waistband holster, a pants pocket, or a fanny pack. On the days when I am doing something or going somewhere outside my ordinary threat level, I carry the Kel-Tec in my pocket and my S&W M&P .40 in a strong-side, inside the waistband holster. After all, to quote Clint Smith, "One is none, two is one."
As many posters have correctly asserted, the perfect carry gun is the one that you'll carry every day. "Leftit" guns (you know...leftit in the car...leftit in the house, etc) are worse than useless. I can't think of a more sickening feeling in the pit of one's stomach than, in a serious social encounter, to reach for the gun you normally carry only to find nothing there but waistband.
And if you choose to carry, PLEASE be certain you have what it takes to make the damn thing go "boom" if the siutation calls for it!! As much as I do NOT want to be killed by some hulking cretin, I even more do NOT want to be killed by some hulking cretin using my own damn gun!!
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As Michael does, the gun I carry is based upon my personal threat assessment for any given day. My normal every day carry gun is a 9mm Kel-Tec P11. This is a very easily concealable weapon whether it's carried in an inside the waistband holster, a pants pocket, or a fanny pack. On the days when I am doing something or going somewhere outside my ordinary threat level, I carry the Kel-Tec in my pocket and my S&W M&P .40 in a strong-side, inside the waistband holster. After all, to quote Clint Smith, "One is none, two is one."
As many posters have correctly asserted, the perfect carry gun is the one that you'll carry every day. "Leftit" guns (you know...leftit in the car...leftit in the house, etc) are worse than useless. I can't think of a more sickening feeling in the pit of one's stomach than, in a serious social encounter, to reach for the gun you normally carry only to find nothing there but waistband.
And if you choose to carry, PLEASE be certain you have what it takes to make the damn thing go "boom" if the siutation calls for it!! As much as I do NOT want to be killed by some hulking cretin, I even more do NOT want to be killed by some hulking cretin using my own damn gun!!
You have hit on a major hitch in the defense stratagies of many people who think "Oh, I'm safe, I have a gun."
The proper mindset of course is "I'm safER, I have the TRAINING and mindset to USE my gun to protect myself and family.
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You have hit on a major hitch in the defense stratagies of many people who think "Oh, I'm safe, I have a gun."
The proper mindset of course is "I'm safER, I have the TRAINING and mindset to USE my gun to protect myself and family.
excellent point. while I would do almost anything to keep from having to shoot someone, I know I could if I need to. a large part of self defense is planning, awareness and the mindset to do what is necessary. My circumstances no longer put me in positions or places where self defense is likely to be needed. while my preference is still 9mm or larger, I feel a .380 would do the job if I do mine.
you can easily what-if yourself into an .500SW but is that going to be practical for carry? not for most. I spend a good deal of time in the woods and would choose my Delta or 1006 or one of the other large caliber guns I have. concealment is not an issue. but if for some reason, I had to be in a high crime environment (not likely for me), I would choose the largest caliber I could conceal effectively, even if I had to put up with some discomfort. In the summer, even my Kahr P9 is sometimes not the right choice as it requires a holster and attire that doesn't work for me in some situations. those kinds of conditions usually dictate a minimum caliber...and a pocket .380 is small enough for most anyone to hide...unless you wear a speedo or vacation at a nudist colony.
I will seriously consider a Kahr in .380 when I can find one. it will make a nice summer gun. I will feel safe simply because I am sure I will hit what I shoot at...and it will be at least twice.
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I personally carry all the above......32acp that is. I like carrying bigger guns but especially in summer have a hard time concealing them. I usually have a larger calibur 9 thru 45acp in the car. But if going in the store or our gun friendly Walmart I usually just have my Keltec 32 in my front pocket. I agree this isnt perfect but then what in this world is. If going to a gunfight.....I just like to have a gun too.
Hope you can forgive me for all this .....I am new to the forum!
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We were all just talking about this tonight.
The fact of being in the mindset to hope you can do everything in your power NOT to have to pull that gun.. but if you do.. don;'t just shoot once.. ya better unload it on 'em.
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Considering that even with the heart destroyed by a .30-06 bullet still has enough oxygen in the bloodstream to continue to act and attempt to kill you for 30 seconds, even .45 ACP is "too small."
Hit your target early and hit your target often. ;)
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We were all just talking about this tonight.
The fact of being in the mindset to hope you can do everything in your power NOT to have to pull that gun.. but if you do.. don;'t just shoot once.. ya better unload it on 'em.
Amen, especially about being responsible.
When I got my CC permit it was a REAL sobering moment. The first time I slid my .380 in my pocket I realized just how very much I don't want to have to kill someone, especially if it were because I was so stupid or careless as to get myself or my loved ones into a situation where it couldn't be avoided. I am a LOT more cautious now than when I didn't have the permit, even when I'm not with my family, because I believe it's even more my responsibility to avoid a confrontation now.
Spidey had it right: "With great power comes great responsibiliy"
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It seems that concealed carry not only helps prevent crime but also enhances the the sense of personal responsibility, that has to be a good thing.
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It seems that concealed carry not only helps prevent crime but also enhances the the sense of personal responsibility, that has to be a good thing.
Roger that and +10
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1st time responder, new memeber....
I choose my pistol like I choose my shoes…I don’t wear combat boots to church and I don’t wear dress shoes hunting.
I agree with the member that said, the best one is the one you can shoot and the one you commit to carrying. I have a variety of weapons, including one I call my “West Plano” gun (West Plano is a shooshie suburb of Dallas). It is a .25 magnum derringer that I jokingly say I could wear in a Speedo and no one could tell. I practice with and shoot all of my weapons well and I have purchased and carry one of them every day in the hope that I will never have to use it for defense.
Bottom line is, you can always be outgunned and the unknown is the unknown.
I have a decked out AR-15, but it is not practical to carry that slung across my chest daily…
:)
Good topic!
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I carry a Glock 30 with two full magazines year round in Las Vegas. I will confess to changing clothes twice a day during those delightful summer months, but the G30, under a camp shirt on a Wilderness Tactical belt in 1 3/4" gives me a ton of confidence.
I am seriously contemplating a pair of Ruger LCP's (one for the wife) for those get up and go moments. But the entire process of putting the holster and mag carrier on is short and I've never gotten so lazy that I've gone without.
The wife carries a S & W J-Frame 66 in a Galco holster purse (one of a collection) and has been pleased.
But the minimum carry caliber is the one that you will never, ever leave home without. I'd actually be fairly confident with my old Colt Challenger plus a spare mag. Got my new springs from Numrich last week so am just about ready to re-spring the old Colt and have a wonderful $10 day on the range. You can't beat a .22 LR for practice.
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:o I carry a Glock 27 all the time, Just the size of the hole in the barrel will get some BG's running, I find it conceals find for my life style, I do construction and A/C repair and in the summer I wear loose fitting shirts (button-up)that don't need to be tucked in ( vacation style) with different patterns on them that help in not printing but it does a little, I carry it in a Blackhawk sportster Serpa & Paddle,
No one has ever made the weapon & I am around people all day long, Even local police never have made it!
I carry it from the minute I put on my pants till I take them off,
I don't feel comfortable with anything less than a 9mm which I have a XD-9 Comp, I it stays home most of the time!
Just my carry :P
http://www.endtime.com
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My daily carry gun is a Colt Defender with CT's loaded with 7 rounds of Hornady TAP plus one spare mag in the front left pants pocket. I also have a Colt govt. 380 that I carry when I am down to shorts and a T-shirt. For me the clip draw in the beltline is the only way to carry in the warm seasons. When it gets cooler I tend to carry in a Galco belt holster which fits nicely under an untucked shirt. I will say that the first gun I bought to carry was a Para-ordnance P-13, (thinking bigger and more bullets...) Mistake. I found myself leaving it in the truck more often than not as it was too heavy to comfortably carry. Now I think as so many others have stated that your daily piece needs to be the one you will actually carry to where it may be needed, rather than the one you will leave in the truck.
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I carry 9mm Hornady TAPS in my two primary carry guns.
I carry 147 gr Hornady TAPS in my Glock 26. It loves them!
I tend to think in terms of "personal threat levels." I have organized my life so that my general threat level is pretty low — I live in a small town in a rural area; I work out of the house; I don't drink to excess or frequent bars; I don't frequent prostitutes or purchase illegal drugs;
Is frequent the operative word there? ;D
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I was very glad to see that most agreed on a .380. Living in Key West FL shorts, t-shirt and flip flops are considered business attire. Size does matter with a cary gun. I love the Ruger LCP but am worried that .380 won't be enough. Looks like most readers here feel it is. I'm going to rent one at my range and give it a try before I buy. Any readers have one they can share experiences on?
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KW,
Fisrt...Welcome aboard from another FL cat! ;D
Second...look around a bit and you will find several threads on the LCP. Try especially the Handgun forum.
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There are also a few user ratings on the LCP at the Reviews section of the website.
http://www.downrange.tv/reviews/
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:o I have a Larcin .380 and it is a straight shooter. But I carry a 357 Taurus 651SS2 so I can be the guy who goes home. I pratice regularly and prey I do not have to use it.
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If she says, "What are you doing?" ... It's too small.
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If she says, "What are you doing?" ... It's too small.
No, you just have to respond - "Pleasuring you?"
And hope she doesn't respond - "well, stop it, it's annoying!"
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Ya heard about the guy with the small Johnson went to a whore house. When he undressed the woman laughed and said "Honey. who do you expect to please with that?" To which he answered "ME, BITCH! ME!"
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This thread sounds like it's going towards "Show Me Your Snubby". Please ... no pictures. :o
To this thread, I had an experience that goes to whatever you can carry on you.
Was living in Houston and had just come out of my customer's office which was located in a not-so-good part of town. Had to mail a letter and across the street from their office was a mail box in a bank parking lot. Normally, I would have had my HKP7 (or a custom tuned S&W 3906) on me. But because I was at my customer’s office it was stored securely in my car between my seat and console.
As soon as I park and walk over to the mail box, a car pulls up between me and my car. Loud rap music is being pumped out of the oversized speakers in the trunk. The driver smiles at me. He either had a piece of pepperoni or a ruby on his tooth. Just when I was wondering if they didn’t see too many 5’9” blue eyed blondes wearing nice suits and driving new cars in their hood that it dawned on me that they were not going to mail a letter.
Just as I see the driver reach for his door handle the passenger who was scanning the parking lot taps him on the shoulder and they leave … smiling at me like a Cheshire Cat. A Houston PD car had just pulled into the bank parking lot.
Moral of the story. Carry the gun on you. In the car or in the safe will not do you any good. Carry what you can shoot reliably and carry comfortably.
I am in the market for a smaller handgun. Would get a S&W “J” frame tomorrow if I didn’t distrust the internal lock so much. As to caliber and this thread, I would not have an issue with a 32ACP if it was reliable and on the right platform.
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I sure wish I could be a Liberal. World peace, harmony, food for all, no disease, gluttony, greed..
Guess I'll just have to settle for going "GREEN" for the environment.
AND I blend in well in the produce section of my grocery. Right Ron J, always carry.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj211/DMACK_2008/gardenGuns.jpg)
PF9-P3AT.
Mac.
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So, how many rounds do you have through that PF9? Snappy to shoot?
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Haz, I put 300 rds of WWB through it and 50 rounds of Federal Hydra-Shoks. Then I Dura Coated both slides OD green and test fired with no malfunctions.
Snappy? Oh Yea, but manageable at close in ranges. ALMOST as easy to carry as the .380, and when you fire them side by side, you really experience the extra "thump" you get with the 9mm. Now I am both comfortable AND comforted. It's the same carry size as a Model 60 S&W, and a few ounces lighter.
Mac.
ps. IMHO, forget the belt clip and trigger shoe options. The clip removes meat from your big knuckle under recoil and the trigger shoe is significantly wider than the trigger guard, making holstering or pocket carry certain disaster. I have both items for sale at half price if anybody just has to have them. PM me, please. DM.
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Mac-
Those Kel Tecs sure look sharp in OD Green...... nice choice.
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Thanks. GREEN-My favorite color. My wife says I'm a closet Forest Ranger.
Mac.
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"I am in the market for a smaller handgun. Would get a S&W “J” frame tomorrow if I didn’t distrust the internal lock so much."
Ron J: Keep your hopes up and keep checking the gun stores. I was all set to put my deposit down on the new S&W classic series M-40 when the counterperson said, "Well, if you are looking for a Centennial, I've got one at home you can buy...".
It's a 1995 640, .38, smooth wood grips, no internal lock, and immaculate...and almost 1/2 the price of a new Centennial...Sold. I'm doing the California waiting period now. I might put my M-60 up on consignment after I get this one....
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Haven't seen any J frames. S&W mod 15 4" 38 for 230.00 though.
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"I am in the market for a smaller handgun. Would get a S&W J frame tomorrow if I didnt distrust the internal lock so much."
Ron J: Keep your hopes up and keep checking the gun stores. I was all set to put my deposit down on the new S&W classic series M-40 when the counterperson said, "Well, if you are looking for a Centennial, I've got one at home you can buy...".
It's a 1995 640, .38, smooth wood grips, no internal lock, and immaculate...and almost 1/2 the price of a new Centennial...Sold. I'm doing the California waiting period now. I might put my M-60 up on consignment after I get this one....
Freind of mine has an S&W J frame no problems at all.
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How about the Rossi .357? Old school revolver, low price.
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How about the Rossi .357? Old school revolver, low price.
I'd go with the Taurus .357 snubbie...... about the same price point
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It seems that the "clean" pre-IL J frames go pretty quickly. That's a good reason to check out gun stores too!
I do like the S&W 340MP but having read of IL lock failures (didn't MB post an experience with one?) with various S&W wheelguns at the S&W forum, I tend to be a little "gun shy".
Maybe when the LCP doesn't have a 100 deep waiting list I will check them out.
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a .22 might be a great toy and a cheap way to fire off 500 rounds a day but wouldn't ever use as my primary carry gun. Looking for one to buy as a play in the woods gun now.
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My thinking is two fold.. Effectiveness equals placement. Any caliber in the head will get the bad guys attention. Might not stop him but the damage is done, if he takes you out he is not far behind you or at least be in jail after the doctors get done with him. The sight of a gun or the sound of a gun firing will also get the bad guys attention. Maybe to the point of them turning tail and running away.
I am no expert so this is my opinion. 380 is the lowest caliber I will carry. The frame size of the P3AT and LCP will fit in any adults pocket. The is no reason for me to go lower then that in caliber.
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My thinking is two fold.. Effectiveness equals placement. Any caliber in the head will get the bad guys attention. Might not stop him but the damage is done, if he takes you out he is not far behind you or at least be in jail after the doctors get done with him. The sight of a gun or the sound of a gun firing will also get the bad guys attention. Maybe to the point of them turning tail and running away.
I am no expert so this is my opinion. 380 is the lowest caliber I will carry. The frame size of the P3AT and LCP will fit in any adults pocket. The is no reason for me to go lower then that in caliber.
Having them dead or caught Later is pointless. The whole purpose of self defense is to stop the attack NOW, and survive. If you don't survive whats the point ?
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Since .22 Magnum for my NAA Mini isn't listed, I voted for .380, the next smallest caliber I own. I don't have a Concealed Pistol License yet, but I think I would be more like to carry a .45 than anything else.
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??? Surprised you didn't include the .22 Mag. A North American mini revolver with 2" barrel will send a bullet through a 3" phone book, through a !" pine plank and rattle around in 18" of empty shotshell hulls. Not a man stopper but better than no gun at all. Plus you can slip it into your pocket with nary a bulge
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??? Surprised you didn't include the .22 Mag. A North American mini revolver with 2" barrel will send a bullet through a 3" phone book, through a !" pine plank and rattle around in 18" of empty shotshell hulls. Not a man stopper but better than no gun at all. Plus you can slip it into your pocket with nary a bulge
Depends on what you want to do, do you want to kill some one ? or do you want to make them stop doing what made you shoot them in the first place ? .22 and .22 mag are good for killing but much less effective in making some one stop in the middle of their particular crime.
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The first thing in my right front pants pocket every morning is a NAA .22LR revolver.
It is there everyday, all day.
It is a back-up to my Glock 27 .40 that goes with me any time I leave the house during our 10 months of summer here in the south. I would prefer my 1911 .45 ACP Commander, but the Glock does conceal better under a plain t-shirt in a Serpa holster. And, it is lighter. When it does get cold enough to wear a jacket, the Commander is there.
The biggest thing I've ever had to use the NAA .22 for is snakes. The first 2 shots are CCI snakeshot, followed by Aguilla high velocity hollowpoints.
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.380 Hey, It was good enough for "Bond, James Bond"!.....
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/BondGun.jpg)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Fun%20Stuff/bond_gun1.gif)
James Bond never used a .380. His PPK was a .32 ACP. Mine is twice as good as his.
Okay, I see now that this was already pointed out.
Some .22 magnums out of a handgun have more muzzle energy than some .38 Special standard velocity loads. But that's with a 6.5" barrel. Out of a NAA Mini they probably have about the same muzzle energy as an average .32 Auto, or double that of a .25 ACP. I don't want to get shot with one.