The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Pecos Bill on March 10, 2011, 08:20:27 PM
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I just read the thread started by Twyacht and since I don't want to hijack that thread I'll post this here.
What do you all say to abolishing ALL unions? I ask this in all sincerity. Since the unions seem to be filled with fat cats who don't want to work for their pay and demand too much for what little they do, let's abolish them by Federal edict and let the leaders of business and the government decide who should be allowed to work, who should be allowed to receive pay for that work, and if they should be allowed to continue ito work. After all, only the leaders of business and the government know what's best for this country and the people in it. The ordinary people have no right to have anything except what the "right thinking" leaders and the government want them to have. So I say ABOLISH ALL UNIONS! Clear up all this controversy! Put these money grubbing power hungry scumbags in their place!
What say you all?
Pecos
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Labor Unions are a Socialist creation that sets up an adversarial relationship between the people with money and ideas that create jobs, and the labor force that actually does them.
The main objective is not to better the life of the worker but to increase the economic and political power of the unions leadership at the expense of both groups.
People who say "Unions did away with child labor" fail to realize that those children were working because their families needed the money.
In reality Unions take food from the mouths of the poor.
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Believe it or not, there is a difference between "Public" and Private Unions...History shows for every Teamster, Dock Worker, Jimmy Hoffa, Trumka, AFL-CIO, UAW, NEA, type(s),,....there are just the tool box carrying workers that go to work like everyone else. HOWEVER, the MGT. of unions, got it all wrong.....and their Lib, Socialist agenda is all wrong.
We all worry about our families, our future, our retirement...
But when it comes at the expense of others, in this day and age, something has to give. Promises were made, by politicians, and union heads, that now cannot be met.
I am an electrician, solicited by the IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers), more than once, in more than one state, do they mean well?,....I Guess,..,....Do I want to pay them to advocate on my behalf? NO.
Unions are reliant on an employer....The give and take has to be there. Like S&W,...if they moved, folks would still buy them.
Why pay $38 an hour, for someone else, to do it just as well, for $20?
States are having to deal with the reality of NO MONEY,...the scam is over,....With no employer, there is NO union....
Moving to a non union state(s) seems to be more popular,....
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I've been a member of two unions in my lifetime. The United Auto, Aeronautical and Agriculture Workers (UAW) and the Marine Draftsman Association. I had no choice in the matter when I took the jobs though the MDA allowed me to resign after paying dues for three months.
I worked hard regardless of these affiliations and neither did me any favors. For the job I did working for GM, my $11.88/hr job in 1979 was about seven bucks over the average pay for the area. Way too much money for what I was doing to earn it. The MDA was a small semi professional union that should not have existed at all.
My Dad was a UAW, Teamsters member over the years but he worked hard during the fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties until he retired. He asked for nothing and took the layoffs to let the younger guys keep working. In 29 years with GM, they went out on strike once. Today, they threaten to strike with every new contract. Yes, my Dad was a staunch, WWII Vet and a Democrat but a Democrat in his day isn't what it's morphed into today!
Labor laws exist today to prevent the problems that existed in the forties and fifties. Their time is over and has been for a couple of decades. I have friends today that think otherwise but we refrain from these conversations because we each know the others position. Friendship is something that isn't worth arguing over such touchy subjects.
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Unions are why Detroit went from being the showcase of the industrialized world in 1961 to a 3rd world shit hole in 2011.
Unions are why the "Big Three" auto makers are now Japanese companies.
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Unions are why Detroit went from being the showcase of the industrialized world in 1961 to a 3rd world shit hole in 2011.
Unions are why the "Big Three" auto makers are now Japanese companies.
My Dads plant, and the plant I worked in is empty.
Fisher Body, Plant 1, Grand Rapids, MI. About two million square feet of sheet metal manufacturing collecting dust and pigeon poop!
The 2-million-square-foot Fisher Body plant, which came to be known by many as simply "No. 1," has been an economic engine in West Michigan since being announced during the Great Depression 73 years ago.
Dec. 20, 1935: GM's Fisher Body announces plans to build first metal fabrication plant, hire 2,000. Some earn $40 a week
July 1936: First products ship from 196,875-square-foot plant.
1940s: Commercial production halted, plant makes tank parts, weapons and subassemblies
1955: Expands by 265,000 square feet, employment over 3,000
1964: Expands to 1.3 million square feet, employment nears 2,600
1979: Work begins on $90 million, 382,000-square-foot expansion.
1984: Fisher Body name retired as part of GM reorganization
1998: $130 million in upgrades; employment tops 2,500
2001: Ranked among most productive stamping plants in nation
2003-2007: More than $100 million invested in upgrades, 1,000 job cut in restructuring
Oct. 13, 2008: Plant closure announced, 1,480 jobs to be lost
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I had to join a union one summer when I built vending machine doors (!!!!!). Initiation fee and 3 months dues - plus a mandatory 2 week layoff as they did PM on the plant and the top seniority people got to keep working. I got nothing other than that job - and into great shape as I had no car and had to bicycle about 15 miles each way.
I agree, most unions have outlived any semblance of usefulness. But, as a historian and a genealogists, I know there was a time in the country where people died - in some cases lots of people - because of company malfeasance. Some fo my ancestors came from Wales and were involved in mining in what is now WV. The unions made the miners' lives bearable once they had a chance to work.
BUT, having said that, the very idea of a union is un-American and anti-liberty. If we can solve the whole corporate malfeasance thing, unions would have no place in this country.
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So whats the definition of a "union"?
Would the American Medical Association (AMA) be defined as one, the (American Bar Association) ABA?
Should all of those type of "unions" be "banned" as well? Of does it change when you call something a professional members society?
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As a member of IAFF (Intenational Association of Fire Fighters) for 31.5 yrs, the union does have a place.
The city I worked for had a mayor when I started that hated us.
The city manager at that time said "Firefghters are nothing more than commodity's, like papers and pencils."
These are the types of dickheads that think you can just 'create' a fire dept when the need arises.
They don't seem to get the picture that when a calamitous event strikes, you just can't pull trained first responders out of thin air.
They would be happy to have 2 guys on a truck with 4 more undermanned trucks responding from many miles away.
Safety, (as well as OSHA) demands that you have at least the amount of responders on the trucks necessary to keep the crews safe.
Do I like the fact that it is part of AFL-CIO, one of the most crooked organizations since Al Capone? HELL NO!
Did I like it when the shitheads in high places in the union endorsed democrats for the highest elected offices? HELL NO!
Did I like the fact that the NEA was union so we were to support them in their quest for ever increasing funding - even with evidence that throwing money at schools is an obvious waste of money? HELL NO!
Did I like it when they negotiated for the highest standards of safety and equipment for my irish ass when I came upon hazardous chemicals or 'fireman killer' buildings, or psychos that wanted to maim anybody they could get to? HELL YES!
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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As a highschool kid in the mid-'60s I managed to get a great job as a bagboy in one of our local Southern California supermarkets. I made better than minimum wage, and enjoyed the work.
At the end of the third week, I was approached by the RCIA Local 1428 Rep who requested an initiation fee and asked me to sign something that gave the union dibs on my monthly dues. And, since I had two week's pay in my wallet, I had enough to comply. The initiation and dues took a chunk out of my stash, but I was informed that I needed to pay if I wanted to keep my job.
I worked hard, and was noticed by the boss. He offered me a nice promotion to Apprentice Clerk working in the produce department. It came with something like a 50-cent-an-hour raise. I jumped at the chance to better my lot in life.
The Union Goon was back at the end of my first week as Apprentice with a request for something outrageous--I think it was $400 for initiation and a bump in my monthly dues.
Recognize, I was working about 14 hours a week, and taking home around $30. The amount requested was well beyond my means to provide. But the Union Rep was used to this problem--He suggested that I could borrow the money from my parents.
Well, the reason I was working was because my parents had no money to let me borrow. Dad was going for his PhD at the time, and Mom was working as a private school teacher (summers off meant no income for 3 months).
Since the Union Goon seemed to understand my parents had no dough, he had an alternative suggestion: I could pay $20 per week for 20 weeks until the initiation fee was paid and that would leave me with a little more than enough to pay my monthly dues.
Essentially, I could work for nothing for nearly 5 months so the Union would allow me to keep my job.
I went to the boss with my problem, knowing that I had been doing an excellent job and that he would have a solution. The solution: Gotta let ya go. Don't want no union trouble.
So, that showed me how much these union guys were in it for the worker. I quit on the spot and have never taken a union job since.
Whatever benefit the unions may have offered at one time does not belie the fact that today they are an expense we cannot afford. They are a leftist/socialist parasitic infestation that shold be eradicated as quickly as is humanly possible if we have any hope of saving the host. And that is even more true of public sector unions that should have never been allowed to form in the first place.
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Never been in one, wouldn't join one. My Dad was a teamster (local 249) and ened ed having to sue the union to get his retirement.
Again and again I have watched unions drive companies out of business (and of course the members lose their jobs) but those union bosses keep raking in the money and screwing the worker and the dumbass workers keep thinking it is the companies fault!
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This topic makes for really fun large family gatherings as my wife's family is union, and I—well—let's just say I have learned how to employ "tactical" communication skills. :-X
My thoughts boil down to:
For public employees: no unions. Every perk and guarantee is at the expense of the taxpayer.
For private sector: let capitalism run its course.
I am not really sure how this works in other states, so I may be ignorant and have a differing opinion in other states, but I live in a right to work state. If unions prove to provide better quality labor (and in some cases they clearly do) then they get the work. (I realize this is an idealistic thought, but this is the theory anyway).
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I was member of two unions during college summer jobs, United Steel Workers and Operating Engineers. I was raised in a strongly pro- management home. I remember my dad locked in during steel strikes.
I had no choice in the matter but such was life. The jobs paid well so losing the dues did not hurt my savings.
Strangely my dealings with corporations recently make me think unions will start growing again. Corporations only care about share prices; management objectives are all short term and are driven by their bonuses. They would lay off their mothers and move the jobs to Cuba if it would get them a bigger bonus check.
Unions were formed because of these same market forces. Workers were pitted against each other so the bare minimum wages would be made. Public service employees could be dismissed at the whim of the new elect official, if you didn’t kick back some cash you were out on the street.
Yes I know big unions are just as corrupt as big business. It would be nice if the public sector unions were worried about productivity as they were about COLAs.
But trust me, this kind of screw the employees attitude is just what got unions started in the first place.
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Let's step back a minute.
First Amendment covers the right to associate (meet)
.... the right of the people peaceably to assemble....
So if workers, gun owners, hobbist, skill professionals, want to band together, for a common cause, (think, AFL/CIO, AARP, NRA, ARRL, AMA) that's protected.
WHAT's shouldn't happen is two things that have.
No group should be given exclusive control. Call it right to work, but only in the union area has this been granted. There are choices, both in social, hobby, and other skilled areas. But labor unions in some states and industries have been allowed to become the soul source of labor. That should not be. It is called in all other cases anti-trust.
The other thing is that while government employees can organize, BUT THEY should not allowed negotiate compensation and benefits, because there is no profit motive to keep things in check.
And the founders of AFL and CIO were very much anti-socialism. Gompers and Meany were definitely in favor of capitalism and very much against government employee unions.
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Alf, there are only 3 factions in the history of Labor Unions.
Socialists, Who introduced the concept in the first place.
Organized crime, who supply the "muscle" to enforce Union discipline, and skim the dues and pension funds.
Democrats, who have long benefited from large Union donations, and support from corrupt union management.
KMitch mentioned that Unions helped Fire Fighters. Thats BS, It is Union money that keeps those very azzhats in office.
Without Union campaign contributions they would be defeated by candidates who can actually manage a city efficiently with out taxing the residents out of their homes.
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Alf, there are only 3 factions in the history of Labor Unions.
Socialists, Who introduced the concept in the first place.
Organized crime, who supply the "muscle" to enforce Union discipline, and skim the dues and pension funds.
Democrats, who have long benefited from large Union donations, and support from corrupt union management.
KMitch mentioned that Unions helped Fire Fighters. Thats BS, It is Union money that keeps those very azzhats in office.
Without Union campaign contributions they would be defeated by candidates who can actually manage a city efficiently with out taxing the residents out of their homes.
Sorry Tom but your wrong.
Steelworkers and Mineworkers predate Marxs, the mob and the New Deal Democrats
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I hadn't intended to post on this thread this soon but hoo boy did I stir up a hornets nest! I can't and won't say that the unions are socialist but some of what I read sounded socialist to me, JMHO. I read a lot of statements about unions being corrupt, money grabbing grubbing and a general pain in the butt but no one answered my question. I SAY WE SHOULD ABOLISH ALL UNIONS. DO YOU, OUT THERE AGREE OR DISAGREE?
Since unions are considered the root of all that is evil in the business of our society SHOULD WE ABOLISH ALL UNIONS?
Come on guys and gals time to buck up and make a statement yes or no. I don't care if you give a reason or not and I don't want this to be poll put your forum name where your moth is, I have.
Pecos
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KMitch mentioned that Unions helped Fire Fighters. Thats BS, It is Union money that keeps those very azzhats in office.
Without Union campaign contributions they would be defeated by candidates who can actually manage a city efficiently with out taxing the residents out of their homes.
In a word - no.
Minimum manning on first responding trucks is a safety issue. Period. One that bean counters would like to ignore.
The a/c unit isn't going to crush them after all, and it costs money to properly man trucks. My department follows regs that require 4 guys on the truck. 2 go in and 2 are in place for immediate rescue of the first 2 if needed. That would not be in place if it weren't for the union demanding it.
Rural Metro used to show up at fires with 2 guys on the truck who worked the fire as best they could until someone else showed up. By then, there was no safe way to do an interior attack because it was too far gone. Your house or business in now a parking lot.
Rural Metro was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance to NFPA 1710, 1720 by them going union.
Let me state I am NOT a union flag waver. I saw up close and personal how the union pets were treated, many should have been fired.
I was never one of the 'pets', I was one of the thorns in their side.
They waste a shitload of money, be it fed $ or local $. That has to stop.
I despise the fat cats that currently lead the IAFF. Their leftwing agenda is sickening. That was the reason I stopped my PAC contributions years ago. I wasn't going to pay extra for the IAFF to support a tax & spend DemoRat. They used part of my dues to support dems and I think it sucks.
The only thing I can and do support is safety issues for first responders.
Who is going to negotiate that? The City Council? The Finance dept bean counters?
Baby - Bathwater. Know the difference.
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In a word - no.
Minimum manning on first responding trucks is a safety issue. Period. One that bean counters would like to ignore.
The a/c unit isn't going to crush them after all, and it costs money to properly man trucks. My department follows regs that require 4 guys on the truck. 2 go in and 2 are in place for immediate rescue of the first 2 if needed. That would not be in place if it weren't for the union demanding it.
Rural Metro used to show up at fires with 2 guys on the truck who worked the fire as best they could until someone else showed up. By then, there was no safe way to do an interior attack because it was too far gone. Your house or business in now a parking lot.
Rural Metro was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance to NFPA 1710, 1720 by them going union.
Let me state I am NOT a union flag waver. I saw up close and personal how the union pets were treated, many should have been fired.
I was never one of the 'pets', I was one of the thorns in their side.
They waste a shitload of money, be it fed $ or local $. That has to stop.
I despise the fat cats that currently lead the IAFF. Their leftwing agenda is sickening. That was the reason I stopped my PAC contributions years ago. I wasn't going to pay extra for the IAFF to support a tax & spend DemoRat. They used part of my dues to support dems and I think it sucks.
The only thing I can and do support is safety issues for first responders.
Who is going to negotiate that? The City Council? The Finance dept bean counters?
Baby - Bathwater. Know the difference.
Your lucky then I have never seen or heard from anyone in the union. I'm thinking about not paying the dues and telling them to go to hell. Texas is an at will state and the unions dont have any power here, as far as I can tell. If they did do something they would only cause more problems. jmho.
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Sorry Tom but your wrong.
Steelworkers and Mineworkers predate Marxs, the mob and the New Deal Democrats
Wrong,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
Karl Heinrich Marx (May 5, 1818 – March 14, 1883)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Federation_of_Labor
The American Federation of Labor (AFL) was one of the first federations of labor unions in the United States. It was founded in 1886 by an alliance of craft unions disaffected from the Knights of Labor, a national labor association. Samuel Gompers (1850–1924) was elected president of the Federation at its founding convention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Gompers#Philosophy
Samuel Gompers began his labor career familiar with, and sympathetic to the precepts of socialism,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers
The UMW was founded in Columbus, Ohio, on January 22, 1890, with the merger of two old labor groups, the Knights of Labor Trade Assembly No. 135 and the National Progressive Miners Union [3]. Adopting the model of the American Federation of Labor (AFL), the union was initially established as a three-pronged labor tool: to develop mine safety; to improve mine workers' independence from the mine owners and the company store; and to provide miners with collective bargaining power. After passage of the National Recovery Act in 1933, organizers spread out throughout the United States to organize all coal miners into labor unions.
In other words they were a regional organization until given a boost by "New Deal " democrats Socialists
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the old school trade unions= good.
99.9999% unions now= crap.
by old school trade unions I mean the ones whre they provided training and assurance that you were hiring some one that knew what they were doing. None of this, you can't fire me, or there is no work today, but you still have to pay me crap.
My grandfather was the head of the local painters and tapers union for awhile. he didn't put up with that crap, and he would violate( kick or suspend) people all the time. he would also regularly take away people journymern statis and make them apprentices if thier work sucked. Yes they made alot of money ( infact a couple bucks more a hour then they do now this was the late 70s) but you knew what you were getting and you got production. I tell a bunch of modern painters about what the qoutas were and what the time frame to do X job was. They don't beleave me, untill I pull out the old union book. every thing had to be done with a brush. even owning a roller waws enough to get you tossed out of the union.
Infact the current union pres was my grandfathers last apprentice. he is also the guy that signed off my contractors lic. and has the same name as my grandfather.( no relation) Whne I went to sign up for the union, I put my self down as a journeymen hire. which requires a skill test, basicly paint a door and a casing. You then have to get approval by the pres. After watching me do the skill part of the test and then looking at my app, he asked me " are you related to jim and john "coonie" gordon?" "yeah, thats my grandfather and my great uncle" "you're in as a journeymen, I know damn well he trained you better then anyone here could"
then we had a bunch of great storys to tell we also talked about my grandfathers partner larry woods for a long time... good times.
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Tom,
As per your excellant research you are wrong. Both unions predated the influence of communist, mobs and the New Deal.
I would be the last person to say that those groups currently don't have sway in labor unions, but they had nothing to do with why they were formed.
It's a fact that today most big big unions are just another large business that feeds the top at the expense of it's workers. Animal Farm incarnate.
No I do not think unions should be banned.
No I don't think you should mandate closed shops either.
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http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=80
http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=349&series-id=89
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There is no reason for public sector employees to be unionized. We are their bosses and have NO representation in collective bargaining negotiations. Politicians work for whoever pays them the most, and union political contributions are massive.
Having said that, unionized workers in the private sector would be just fine if they promoted worker proficiancy in their industries. Does anyone remember the International Garment Workers commercials of the 70s? They wanted you to look for the "Union Lable" in an effort to promote the quality of union manufactured clothing. Unfortunately for them, union negotiators had already killed off the goose that laid the golden egg, and their jobs went to Thailand.
Unionism can be a good thing, but political considerations have destroyed the purpose of the idea. Promoting the wellbeing and compentency of their members.
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If unions are so great in the private sector why has membership been dropping for years ?
If it were not for Union only "right to work, (If you kick back to us ) laws" there would no longer be any Unions outside the Public sector.
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I've read through this thread and one poster has answered my question. One has referred us all to some place whose relevance I couldn't figure out. There were a bunch of rants about the usefulness or uselessness of unions etc. but only one vote other than mine. Every time something bad happens in this country there is a plethora of ranting and raving that it's the "unions" fault. That doesn't help anything. Ranting and raving blows a lot of smoke but dumps the problem onto someone else. Come on buck up be part of the solution not part of the problem. Should we work to abolish unions or not? I've stated my position now it's time for all these ranters to state theirs. A simple yes or no is easy to put into a post sign in and VOTE.
Come on guys and gals. Let's see a show of hands.
Pecos
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I see no good reason for unions to exist with existing labor laws.
Abolish them and promote excellence in the workforce rather than mediocrity. If you don't like your working environment, find another occupation!
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I see no good reason for unions to exist with existing labor laws.
Abolish them and promote excellence in the workforce rather than mediocrity. If you don't like your working environment, find another occupation!
Thank you! Another brave soul!
Pecos
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Abolish
I thought my posts would have made my opinion fairly clear. Unions are essentially unAmerican and the slide into Socialism can be traced to their emergence in this country.
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There is no reason for public sector employees to be unionized. We are their bosses and have NO representation in collective bargaining negotiations. Politicians work for whoever pays them the most, and union political contributions are massive.
Having said that, unionized workers in the private sector would be just fine if they promoted worker proficiancy in their industries.
I see no good reason for unions to exist with existing labor laws.
Does that mean you go to the Home Depot parking lot when you need a plumber or an electrician? Habla espaniol? Union certification means you actually get a master plumber or master electrician. No we don't need unionized maids or dishwashers, but a union (guild) is essential for some trades.
If you want to talk about getting rid of manditory union membership, that's a different subject. Then you you need to support "Right to Work laws".
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Does that mean you go to the Home Depot parking lot when you need a plumber or an electrician? Habla espaniol? Union certification means you actually get a master plumber or master electrician. No we don't need unionized maids or dishwashers, but a union (guild) is essential for some trades.
Not at all true. You can not find Union plumbers or electricians in Me. or NH. Except at the ship yard which is notorious for inefficiency.
There may be some Spanish speakers in the 2 bigger cities but in the other 98% of the state it's all American.
A lot of people here just do their own, and have the Building inspector OK it. Very few fires from electrical work.
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Does that mean you go to the Home Depot parking lot when you need a plumber or an electrician? Habla espaniol? Union certification means you actually get a master plumber or master electrician. No we don't need unionized maids or dishwashers, but a union (guild) is essential for some trades.
We don't have these issues here. Are there illegals doing this type of work? Probably, but even if I needed an electrician or plumber, I'd just look in the phone book and verify the trade license of the guy or gal I hire for the work. Licensing in the trade is sufficient which nullifies the reason for a union.
Personally, I do my own electrical work, plumbing work, rough carpentry, mechanical systems, etc....always have as these are the things that any man should be able to accomplish with a bit of study and a decent manual or guide. Here, we can do the work, with a valid permit and just get it blessed by the Inspector. I've done several homes electrical work and none have burned down yet. Plumbing is no different, roofing, you name it.
My father was a journeyman tool and die maker at GM. It was pretty well known that if you earned your Journeyman card at GM, which he did, he probably wasn't qualified to work in an independent tool and die shop. He would have had to start at the bottom and learn the trade all over again. Mediocrity....
I know this to be true as my two closet friends, men I've known for 53 years, own tool and die shops in MI and wouldn't hire a laid off GM die maker if they could avoid it.
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Okay, let me be perfectly clear... Here in the South, the very word union is not highly thought of. Ever since the War of Northern Aggression, union has meant pillage, rape, destruction. From the activity in Wisconson, it would appear that nothing has changed.
This Rabbit has no use for anything union. Eliminate them all, and let the market sort out the proper wage and benefit for somebody's job skills.
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We don't have these issues here. Are there illegals doing this type of work? Probably, but even if I needed an electrician or plumber, I'd just look in the phone book and verify the trade license of the guy or gal I hire for the work. Licensing in the trade is sufficient which nullifies the reason for a union.
Personally, I do my own electrical work, plumbing work, rough carpentry, mechanical systems, etc....always have as these are the things that any man should be able to accomplish with a bit of study and a decent manual or guide. Here, we can do the work, with a valid permit and just get it blessed by the Inspector. I've done several homes electrical work and none have burned down yet. Plumbing is no different, roofing, you name it.
My father was a journeyman tool and die maker at GM. It was pretty well known that if you earned your Journeyman card at GM, which he did, he probably wasn't qualified to work in an independent tool and die shop. He would have had to start at the bottom and learn the trade all over again. Mediocrity....
I know this to be true as my two closet friends, men I've known for 53 years, own tool and die shops in MI and wouldn't hire a laid off GM die maker if they could avoid it.
I was not sure about Ma. and Ct.
All you have to know about plumbing is 4 things any idiot can remember.
Hot on the left
Cold on the right
Sh!t runs down hill
Don't bite your fingernails ;D
Okay, let me be perfectly clear... Here in the South, the very word union is not highly thought of. Ever since the War of Northern Aggression, union has meant pillage, rape, destruction. From the activity in Wisconson, it would appear that nothing has changed.
This Rabbit has no use for anything union. Eliminate them all, and let the market sort out the proper wage and benefit for somebody's job skills.
You're just jealous. ;D
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Thanks for all the replies, guys I hope no one took any of this too much to heart, none of this was meant to get personal.
Let me clarify a bit some of what I wrote: I am in favor of abolishing the unions as they are now. The idea of a "union" is, I think, good. What we have now is not good. I grew up in a union household. I was a member of two unions, one only briefly the other for more years than I care to count sometimes. The first had my boss on the union board, the second was run locally by people who worked for the company. Neither were very effective. I have worked the last several years in a non-union environment and let me tell you in two of those I and my fellow workers were treated like dirt. The last, where I still work, is a good place. We need to completely revamp the union system in this country and go back to what they were originally. To completely abolish the unions and never have anything as such again would be a major mistake and would only put us back to the pre depression era and the "company store" attitude of business leaders. A major step back!
Should we have closed shops? I don't think so though I will say that one of the union jobs I had was not a closed shop and those who didn't join the union and didn't pay dues got the same pay and benefits I did. Is that fair? Frankly I don't think so but I had to live with it.
Are unions socialist? I don't think so. Do they take food away from the poor? I don't think so. Now before Tombogan blows a fuse let me remind you this is not meant to be personal. I don't think unions are any more socialist than is the present system of government we now have. Think guys, our government is taking a good portion of our taxes and giving it to people who don't seem to want to work. The government is also encouraging corporate america to move jobs off shore and the major reason is that the unions have priced themselves out of the market. I don't know if that's socialism or not but it doesn't seem to be too good for the country. Perhaps we need to have business and labor get together and figure out that if the corporate heads give up their multi-million dollar salaries and labor would agree to a reduction we could afford to have most of these jobs back and everyone would benefit. Is that socialist or is that a good idea? I don't know.
Before I close this rant let's go to a little history. There was some heated discussion about the start of unions and how they became what they are and when. If you all take a close look at history you will find that the first "unions" were the guilds in Europe. They set the standard for work quality, price for goods and services, and tended to force non-members out of the business. Sounds a lot like our present unions.
Now I've tried to explain my position on unions and I hope I made my self clear. If not my apologies. This is the last I will post on unions so I hope I'm understood.
Pecos
I did stir the pot though didn't I?
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Thing is Pecos, Guilds not only set the prices but they also maintained standards of quality and required their members to achieve certain skill levels in order to qualify for higher wages.
A master piece was a piece the guild member did for his guild to demonstrate that he had mastered his craft.
The purpose of the Guild was to improve and promote a skill, craft or trade.
Union workers simply show up every day to milk whatever the Union managed to guage out of the employer, doing just enough, good enough work to not get fired until they can go out on a shady disability , or if they have to stick it out that long, a pension.
Mean while WE are paying for it higher prices, for lower quality. While Union money goes into every single one of the political items that we bitch about here.
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Unions in general are a lot like sex, drugs, and alcohol. Just because a little is good, it doesn't mean more is better, and too much is just enough. Much like the above, unions are very easily abused to the point of causing destruction. If everyone could moderate their intake of drugs and alcohol, as well as their desire for sex, there would be no problem with any of it. The problems come from over indulgence, (Charlie Sheen). Labor unions operate much the same. Good in concept, (fair wage for equally fair labor), but quickly get out of control in practice. Bill T.
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In a word - no.
Minimum manning on first responding trucks is a safety issue. Period. One that bean counters would like to ignore.
The a/c unit isn't going to crush them after all, and it costs money to properly man trucks. My department follows regs that require 4 guys on the truck. 2 go in and 2 are in place for immediate rescue of the first 2 if needed. That would not be in place if it weren't for the union demanding it.
Rural Metro used to show up at fires with 2 guys on the truck who worked the fire as best they could until someone else showed up. By then, there was no safe way to do an interior attack because it was too far gone. Your house or business in now a parking lot.
Rural Metro was dragged kicking and screaming into compliance to NFPA 1710, 1720 by them going union.
Let me state I am NOT a union flag waver. I saw up close and personal how the union pets were treated, many should have been fired.
I was never one of the 'pets', I was one of the thorns in their side.
They waste a shitload of money, be it fed $ or local $. That has to stop.
I despise the fat cats that currently lead the IAFF. Their leftwing agenda is sickening. That was the reason I stopped my PAC contributions years ago. I wasn't going to pay extra for the IAFF to support a tax & spend DemoRat. They used part of my dues to support dems and I think it sucks.
The only thing I can and do support is safety issues for first responders.
Who is going to negotiate that? The City Council? The Finance dept bean counters?
Baby - Bathwater. Know the difference.
Hey Kmitch - I'm with ya Brother, member IAFF for 29 yrs. If we didn't have the IAFF yours and my safety fighting fires would be questionable. This is where I feel the IAFF differs from say the UAW, IBEW and other unions. I don't suppot the PAC funds because they give my $ to stupid politicians. Most people in America don't have a clue what is involved and what we are exposed to on a daily basis ie: fires with many carcinogens present, handling Haz/Mats - chemicals, bombs, radiological exposure, meth labs and much more, the EMS calls with blood born pathogens Hep-A, HEP-B & C, AIDS, tuberculosus, and many other unknowns.
It's funny because the citizens call us they damn well want us there ASAP to save their house, their business, save their loved ones with the heart attack and more. I'm not berating any volunteers by any means, but larger cities usually have paid fulltime F/F's and when cities get larger the mayor and other so called leaders want to penny pinch our safety and our lives, our equipment and training.