The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on March 11, 2011, 01:41:36 AM
-
8.9...
bad stuff happening. tsumani warnings thru out the pacific... I have a frined in guam right now. I hope he is ok.
-
It doesn't look very good. I think I'll be up all night watching it.
-
certainly is a nasty one, not unexpected I would think, the bali tsunami was preceeded by a huge earthquake south of us and with the recent christchurch one occurring, it was bound to cause a shift elsewhere.
Poor bastards, ya cant fight nature.
-
Ha! They actually had school closures in Washington state for fear of the 1 ft. tsunami waves reaching our shore. Pathetic.
-
Ha! They actually had school closures in Washington state for fear of the 1 ft. tsunami waves reaching our shore. Pathetic.
1 ft wave, possibly traveling at speeds over 500 MPH is nothing to f*ck around with. Also, that is 1 ft in the open ocean, when it gets into shallower coastal areas it piles up. When it actually hits land the height , depending on bottom contour, could be 20-30 feet or even more.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110312/ap_on_re_us/us_japan_earthquake_pacific
CRESCENT CITY, Calif. – The warnings traveled quickly across the Pacific in the middle of the night: An 8.9-magnitude earthquake in Japan spawned a deadly tsunami, and it was racing east Friday as fast as a jetliner.
Sirens blared in Hawaii. The West Coast pulled back from the shoreline, fearing the worst. People were warned to stay away from the beaches. Fishermen took their boats out to sea and safety.
The alerts moved faster than the waves, giving millions of people across the Pacific Rim hours to prepare.
In the end, harbors and marinas in California and Oregon bore the brunt of the damage, estimated by authorities to be in the millions of dollars.
Boats crashed into each other, some vessels were pulled out to sea and docks were ripped out. Rescue crews searched hours for a man who was swept out to sea while taking pictures.
None of the damage — in the U.S., South America or Canada — was anything like the devastation in Japan.
-------------------- snip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the tsunami raced across the Pacific at 500 mph, the first sirens began sounding across Hawaii late
Thursday night.
--------------------------------------------- snip ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Their beachfront house was unscathed.
Many other Pacific islands also evacuated their shorelines for a time. In Guam, the waves broke two U.S. Navy submarines from their moorings, but tug boats brought them back to their pier.
In Oregon, the first swells to hit the U.S. mainland were barely noticeable.
Sirens pierced the air in Seaside, a popular tourist town near the Washington state line. Restaurants, gift shops and other beachfront businesses stayed shuttered. Some residents moved to the hills nearby, gathering behind a house.
-------------------------------------------- snip ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Outside Brookings, Ore., just north of the California border, four people went to a beach to watch the waves and were swept into the sea. Two got out on their own, and the others were rescued, authorities said.
In Crescent City, Calif., miles to the south, the Coast Guard suspended their hours-long search at dark for a man who was swept out to sea. He was taking photos near the mouth of the Klamath River. Two people with him jumped in to rescue him. They were able to get back to land, authorities said.
Sheriff's deputies went door to door at dawn to urge residents to seek higher ground.
An 8-foot wave rushed into the harbor, destroying about 35 boats and ripping chunks off the wooden docks, as marina workers and fishermen scrambled between surges to secure property. Officials estimated millions of dollars in damage.
When the water returned, someone would yell "Here comes another one!" to clear the area.
Ted Scott, a retired mill worker who lived in the city when a 1964 tsunami killed 17 people on the West Coast, including 11 in Crescent City, watched the water pour into the harbor.
"This is just devastating. I never thought I'd see this again," he said. "I watched the docks bust apart. It buckled like a graham cracker."
-
News channel today showed the California dumbasses lined up on the pier to see the tsunami. ::)
One can only hope...
-
Like I said, in WA, nothing. But thanks for lesson in wave dynamics.
-
News channel today showed the California dumbasses lined up on the pier to see the tsunami. ::)
One can only hope...
they get washed away or cali breaks away from the US? Win/Win??
-
Got up this morning to the news that one of their nuclear reactors had blown its roof and walls out. It may be beginning a core meltdown.
Japanese government claims there is no danger, but has evacuated 45,000 people and stocked up on iodine just in case. They have said that 5 more nuke reactors are in danger.
Late last night I also heard that 5 people from Crescent City had been swept out to sea. One has apparently been rescued and our Coasties are looking for the others.
Seems unconscionable that our CG heroes would have to place themselves in jeopardy to save the sorry butts of stupid people who willingly walk in harm's way.
Nobody has to worry about any of this, though. Our fearless leader Jugears Odamna said the resourceful Japanese will certainly recover, "...hopefully, with our help."
Yeah, they could do it on their own, but we have so much money and so many resources that we need to force our help on them.
-
9 AM Sat. the Japs are (according to Fox ) handing out Iodine in the area of the Nuke plant, however they say the steel structure containing the reactor is intact with radiation levels falling.
I have 2 comments to make about this, 1st, Any one who would even think about building nuke plants in an area as prone to earthquakes as Japan is a f*cking idiot. They were just begging for this type of incident.
On the other hand, the drones in New Orleans and Haiti should take notes on how Japan reacts.
They will get out and start working like ants instead of demanding others fix their problems.
In 6 months things will be nearly back to normal. They will not sit on their butts whining for 2 years like those pissants in Haiti, or 5 years like the democrat vote cattle in N.O..
Note for CR, The USS Ronald Reagan is heading into the area to assist. With its nuclear reactors it can supply large amounts of electricity which means people who need refrigerated medicines such as insulin will have an option besides dying next week.
According to the Fox program I was watching earlier most aid from the US will be provided by the military, this will cost very little since we are paying them any way. People who ridicule the use of military force in disasters fail to take into account that those forces excel at things like logistics, and search and rescue . Along with its reactors supplying power the Ronald Reagan has 5 fully equipped sick bays and Helicopters to aid in evacuating the injured.
The remainder of the aid is expected to come from non Govt. groups such as Churches and other charities supported not by Tax dollars, but by private donations.
-
Any one who would even think about building nuke plants in an area as prone to earthquakes as Japan is a f*cking idiot. They were just begging for this type of incident.
Diablo Canyon outside San Lois Obispo
San Onofre, outside San Clemente
Both are in fracture zones..
-
So, you're saying that Ca engineers are "f*cking idiots" ?
It's Ca. That's not news.
-
So, you're saying that Ca engineers are "f*cking idiots" ?
It's Ca. That's not news.
;D ;)
-
One of our local radio stations has a "Question of The Day" on their website. The daily question concerned the readiness of US emergency services to handle a similar natural tragedy here in the US. More than any other country, the Japanesse are prepared to handle earthquakes and tsunamis, but the scope of the disaster has overloaded their emergency services. Can you imagine this happening on the US west coast. What do you think would happen to SanFran with a 30 meter wave rushing into the bay (aside from the flushing effect)? What would happen on the East Coast?
-
San Francisco would not be severely harmed, It is sheltered by a headland .
The only damage might be on the Oakland waterfront directly in line with the mouth of the bay most of the Bay are would suffer some very temporary flooding until the water receded, but nothing like in Japan.
In the Bay area by the time you got through to 911 it would be over and the roads would be drying out.
-
not good at all :(
they are now saying in the media that there are 2 reactors in "meltdown"
6.28pm Japan's top government spokesman Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano has has warned of the risk of a second explosion at the quake-hit Fukushima nuclear plant, but said that reactor three could withstand it as reactor one did a day earlier.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/magnitude-quake-strikes-japan/story-e6frfkyi-1226019903430#ixzz1GTUgLZsp
A JAPANESE man who was swept 15km out to sea by Japan's deadly tsunami was plucked to safety today after being spotted clinging to a piece of wreckage, officials said.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/japanese-man-rescued-far-out-to-sea-after-quake-and-tsunami/story-e6frfku0-1226020701604#ixzz1GTU686lq
JAPAN'S recent massive earthquake, one of the largest ever recorded, appears to have moved the island by about 2.4 metres, the US Geological Survey said yesterday.
Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world/quake-moved-japan-by-24-metres-says-the-us-geological-survey/story-e6frfkyi-1226020678641#ixzz1GTUDbdbG
-
not good at all :(
they are now saying in the media that there are 2 reactors in "meltdown"
How long before the toxic cloud hits the west coast?
-
How long before the toxic cloud hits the west coast?
I read somewhere they don't think it will happen
here are some before and after picks
http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?hp
-
Got up this morning to the news that one of their nuclear reactors had blown its roof and walls out. It may be beginning a core meltdown. Japanese government claims there is no danger, but has evacuated 45,000 people and stocked up on iodine just in case.
I put the Japs one notch down in the arrogance dept. over the Russians. These total ass hats think they have this over ability to engineer anything and everything. They build nuclear reactors on unstable, earthquake prone ground, and don't build them inside a RUPTURE PROOF containment building like we do here. The same with the Russians. Then when they fail, the whole world has to pay the price by being placed in danger because of their foolishness.
The japs aren't exactly being forthright about this either. Just like the Russians you have to drag the truth out of them. It was almost 72 hours before the Russians admitted to a major disaster at Chernobyl. By that time Sweden was picking up vast amounts of radiation that ended up contaminating milk in their dairy supply. The japs are being equally evasive. This is not the time for these people to worry about pride and ego. That time has passed long ago. They brag about their fast choo choo trains, while we were stomping around on the Moon 42 years ago. Enough with their nonsense! Bill T.
-
Any one who would even think about building nuke plants in an area as prone to earthquakes as Japan is a f*cking idiot. They were just begging for this type of incident.
I have to totally agree. While the japs design is somewhat better than the Russians, they don't build containment facilities anywhere near strong enough to insure safety considering the conditions that exist in that country. They also did not have a fresh water back up cooling system. Redundancy in systems is the key to safety in aircraft, as well as nuclear power. The japs cut too many corners and simply did not have enough. The result will be another mess the world will be required to pay the price for. Much like New Orleans, Japan has been operating on borrowed time. It looks as if that time has just run out. Bill T.
-
Fox News is now reporting that 3 reactors are in full meltdown. This is going to be a mess of unprecedented magnitude. Bill T.
-
Fox News is now reporting that 3 reactors are in full meltdown. This is going to be a mess of unprecedented magnitude. Bill T.
If it ain't, it'll do until a mess gets here.
Prayer for those folks and all involved.
-
Fox News is now reporting that 3 reactors are in full meltdown. This is going to be a mess of unprecedented magnitude. Bill T.
some info
o At 11:01AM on March 14, an explosion occurred at Fukushima
Daiichi Unit 3 reactor damaging the roof of the secondary
containment building. Caused by the interaction of hydrogen
and oxygen vapor, in a fashion to Unit 1 reactor, the
explosion *did not damage the primary containment vessel* or
the reactor core.
o As of 12:38AM (JST) on March 15, the injection of seawater
has been suspended.
* Fukushima Daini Unit 1 reactor
o As of 1:24AM on March 14, TEPCO commenced the cooling
process after the pumping system was restored.
o At 10:15AM on March 14, TEPCO confirmed that the average
water temperature held constant below 212 degrees Fahrenheit.
* Fukushima Daini Unit 2 reactor
o At 7:13AM on March 14, TEPCO commenced the cooling process.
o As of 3:52PM on March 14, the cooling function was restored
and the core temperature was stabilized below 212 degrees
Fahrenheit.
* Fukushima Daini Unit 3 reactor
o As of 12:15PM on March 13, reactor has been cooled down and
stabilized.
* Fukushima Daini Unit 4 reactor__
o At 3:42PM on March 14, cooling of the reactor commenced,
with TEPCO engineers working to achieve cold shutdown.
more info here http://mitnse.com/
-
Fox reported tonight that the core containment vessels have held in Japan.
These were not built like the russkies Chernobyl plant that are built without a containment structure for the core.
The report I saw said that the seawater being pumped in is not good for the reactor, (I imagine due to corrosion), but was engineered in as a last resort backup.
Of course, we have to rely on some 'don't blame it on me' lying sons a bitches for the latest status report, much like the 3 mile island disaster.....
-
I have to totally agree. While the japs design is somewhat better than the Russians, they don't build containment facilities anywhere near strong enough to insure safety considering the conditions that exist in that country. They also did not have a fresh water back up cooling system. Redundancy in systems is the key to safety in aircraft, as well as nuclear power. The japs cut too many corners and simply did not have enough. The result will be another mess the world will be required to pay the price for. Much like New Orleans, Japan has been operating on borrowed time. It looks as if that time has just run out. Bill T.
Apparently they did.
Sounds like they have a lot of crap to clean up but for all intents and purposes the emergency portion is over.
-
http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110315-red-alert-radiation-rising-and-heading-south-japan?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110315&utm_content=readmore&elq=b7e8610023bd4d389c095afb9e5b4e5b
Somehow I don't think this is anywhere near over. Bill T.
-
http://www.foxnews.com/
And it just keeps getting worse. Bill T.
-
All the reports have been sketchy. Apparently nobody is voluteering to walk into the reactor and see the damage first hand.
K iodide running low...bye bye thyroid.
We won't know the truth for some time and it won't be pretty.
-
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/03/15/fuel-rod-fire/
Fuel rod fire?
While I was asleep, there was a new and unhappy event at Fukushima Daiichi: stored spent fuel rods apparently caught fire. At least right now, this is considerably more exciting than the actual reactor problems. Here’s what the IAEA says:
As reported earlier, a 400 millisieverts (mSv) per hour radiation dose observed at Fukushima Daiichi occurred between units 3 and 4. This is a high dose-level value, but it is a local value at a single location and at a certain point in time. The IAEA continues to confirm the evolution and value of this dose rate. It should be noted that because of this detected value, non-indispensible staff was evacuated from the plant, in line with the Emergency Response Plan, and that the population around the plant is already evacuated.
As they say, that’s in one nasty spot in the plant, and unlike most of the radiation panic, this really is a kind of nasty dose. In the US, we more commonly do dose rates in “rem” — Roentgen Equivalent Man — and one rem is roughly 1/100 Sievert. So this is 40 rem/hr, and that’s not a neighborhood you want to be in a long time. 50 rem is about where you start seeing observable radiation changes, 100 rem in a short time will actually make you sick.
That being said, the dose rate at the gate they report is this:
At 00:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 11.9 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed. Six hours later, at 06:00 UTC on 15 March a dose rate of 0.6 millisieverts (mSv) per hour was observed.
That’s 1.2 rem/hr, going down to 0.06 rem/hr.
The frustrating part about writing on this stuff is that people don’t seem to have any middle setting between “everything is fine” and “run in circles scream and shout”. So saying “no, it’s not Chernobyl” is interpreted as “it’s nothing.”
So let’s go ahead and make this clear: no, it’s still not Chernobyl. But no, it’s not nothing.
Posted at 8:03 am on March 15th, 2011 by
-
The frustrating part about writing on this stuff is that people don’t seem to have any middle setting between “everything is fine” and “run in circles scream and shout”. So saying “no, it’s not Chernobyl” is interpreted as “it’s nothing. It’s still not Chernobyl. But no, it’s not nothing.
The reporting on this stinks at best. One minute it's not so bad, the next it's head for the hills! This is long way from over. Tokyo reported a 6.0 this morning. That in itself would have made the headlines a week ago. Bill T.
-
I does seem like it's nothing at all or it's the China syndrome. The truth has got to be somewhere in between.
-
Having spent a decade working in and around nuclear power, it's pretty easy to separate the wheat from the chaff on whats accurate reporting or pure BS. Unfortunately, TV news will put anyone in front of a camera.
I don't watch much news on the TV anymore because of that.
In a nutshell, this is very serious business we're dealing with. The doses being reported, as Tom noted, are not acutely dangerous but, if I had no need to be there, I'd be leaving. I sponged radiation for eleven years and made a pretty shitty living doing it while contractors were making a 100K to my 30....
This will take decades to clean up. TMI took 14 years and 800 million bucks between 1979 and 1993. Imagine what this will cost!
-
This will take decades to clean up. TMI took 14 years and 800 million bucks between 1979 and 1993. Imagine what this will cost!
Where does all the money go in the clean up process? Bill T.
-
Where does all the money go in the clean up process? Bill T.
Just a sampling. Nothing is cheap in this industry.
July 1980 Approximately 43,000 curies of krypton were vented from the reactor building.
July 1980 The first manned entry into the reactor building took place.
July 1984 The reactor vessel head (top) was removed.
Oct. 1985 Defueling began.
July 1986 The off-site shipment of reactor core debris began.
Jan. 1990 Defueling was completed.
July 1990 GPU submitted its funding plan for placing $229 million in escrow for radiological decommissioning of the plant.
Jan. 1991 The evaporation of accident-generated water began.
Aug. 1993 The processing of 2.23 million gallons accident‑generated water was completed.
Today, the TMI‑2 reactor is permanently shut down and defueled, with the reactor coolant system drained, the radioactive water decontaminated and evaporated, radioactive waste shipped off‑site to an appropriate disposal site, reactor fuel and core debris shipped off‑site to a Department of Energy facility, and the remainder of the site being monitored. In 2001, FirstEnergy acquired TMI-2 from GPU. FirstEnergy has contracted the monitoring of TMI-2 to Exelon, the current owner and operator of TMI-1. The companies plan to keep the TMI-2 facility in long‑term, monitored storage until the operating license for the TMI‑1 plant expires, at which time both plants will be decommissioned.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/3mile-isle.html
Keep in mind that all of this has to monitored constantly and Health Physics Techs in the industry are making 100 bucks an hour or more depending on their contract. Multiply that by several thousand over the years and as with anything else, labor is your largest expense. A janitor at a utility is clearing 50-60K a year easy!
Several GOOD men and GOOD friends I worked with were part of the initial assessment back in 1979-80.
-
I have another thought on costs.
Consider this, for a one day visit to work on my equipment at Susquehanna in PA, I would drive one day, go to the plant and train, get my bio assay, body scan, visitor paperwork done on the second day, enter the plant with an escort for about three or four hours to tune up the gear, process out and drive home the next day!
Four days billable at 800 bucks a day, plus expenses for about four hours of on-site work. Some plants and the DOE sites were even worse.
I was badged at a few sites to reduce the costs to the utility.
Multiply that evolution by an exponent or two...
-
The Japs will go broke after this. Bill T.
-
The Japs will go broke after this. Bill T.
They already have been since the 90's.
But they will get the job done in 1/2 the time or less.
Other than that one plant this whole earth quake thing will be a memory in 6 months.
They will put refugees into work gangs and get the job done, Unlike those whiny drones in New Orleans, (Govt. had to allow illegals to work since the locals were to f*cking lazy ) and Haiti. The only thing wrong with the Haiti earth quake was that it did not kill enough of those lazy SOB's.
-
The cost will be nothing anyone has ever considered in our lifetimes.
Japan has 54 reactors in an area the size of California. California has four.....
One thing that will help is the amount of dry storage available for them and the ability to ship the stuff over the ocean rather than over the road as with our transport problems. Not every state likes having spent fuel running over the road. Only in extreme circumstances has that happened. Most spent fuel is stored on site because the Feds dropped the ball, again, on a repository.
-
They already have been since the 90's.
But they will get the job done in 1/2 the time or less.
Other than that one plant this whole earth quake thing will be a memory in 6 months.
They will put refugees into work gangs and get the job done, Unlike those whiny drones in New Orleans, (Govt. had to allow illegals to work since the locals were to f*cking lazy ) and Haiti. The only thing wrong with the Haiti earth quake was that it did not kill enough of those lazy SOB's.
They COULD just take the stuff out to sea and dump it like the Soviets and Russians STILL do!
The Mariana Trench should suffice...
;)
-
Lots of damned deep water handy if they go that route.
-
Tim, why can't these things be shut down instantly? You know, a "Panic Button" that would dump all of the control rods in and do a complete cold shutdown? How and why does it take so long to shut these things down so they can't melt? Bill T.
-
Technically that is what a "SCRAM" is . A crash stop where the fuel rods drop out of position.
But there is still a butt load of heat to deal with. Something like the temperature of the suns surface, That isn't going to dissipate quickly.
-
Tom's right, all reports are that the automatic scram worked properly (Tom, it's a BWR so the control rods are beneath the core and are inserted upward, the fuel is fixed in place.). They lost the ability to pump coolant water when they lost power and emergency generators were damaged in the flooding.
TMI was operator error, they were misreading the sensors and deliberately pumped coolant out of the core. The exact opposite of what they should have done but they never lost containment.
-
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/17/helicopters-dump-water-japans-crippled-nuclear-power-plant/#dsq-new-post
If the Japanese are such a well disciplined people, why do they need water cannons? Bill T.
-
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/17/helicopters-dump-water-japans-crippled-nuclear-power-plant/#dsq-new-post
If the Japanese are such a well disciplined people, why do they need water cannons? Bill T.
Would imagine they would have them like any other civilised country to put out large fires? Just guessing.