The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Paraguy on March 19, 2011, 07:25:17 AM
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Saw this video of an armed robbery where the store clerk was armed as well and fought back. I am interested in learning what observations people have of this real world situation and what lessons can be learned from it. Obviously, it is easy to second guess when not under the same pressure but that is not my point. This could happen to anyone either as an active participant or bystander so this footage made me think of what would have been the ideal response. For example, the blind shots may have scared the BG away but it also cost valuable rounds which may have been needed later. Thoughts?
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/raw-video-shootout-with-store-robbers-24562273
PS - I tried to find a version without the commercial before it but no luck.
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Found a couple more links.
http://www.wsmv.com/news/27219781/detail.html (http://www.wsmv.com/news/27219781/detail.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVN3nqlIIzo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVN3nqlIIzo)
Comments/thoughts:
Glad he fought back and he wasn't hurt.
Amazing no one was hit.
He jacks a live round out of his gun initially.
Does he reload as they are leaving?
Probably not a good idea to keep shooting at them once they left the store.
He needs to get to the range a little more often.
This almost looks like suppressing fire.
Good example of not being able to get a proper sight picture on your target.
Spray and pray is better suited for an AK than a handgun.
I hope the DA does not feel the need to press charges against him.
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1. The clerk is appears to be attempting to reach his weapon but is unable because they are upon him. He did deflect the bad guy's gun before he was overwhelmed. They pistol whip him instead of shooting him...not sure why...perhaps to subdue the other person in the next aisle.
2. He "pushes" his gun forward with each shot...sort of like we did as kids playing cowboy, bring it down from a recoil position when pulling the trigger.
3. His unaimed shots were effective in keeping the bad guys "suppressed" . The clerk stayed on his knees and out of view until the bad guys started to withdraw. The bad guys did seem to have some trouble locating him. They were always on the reactive side of the curve and never had a chance to consider a counter offensive. The bad guy did appear fire at least one shot at the clerk over the racks, but stopped when the clerk returned fire. Waiting for a clear shot may have allowed the bad guys time to take the offensive.
4. He shot at them while they were attempting to flee the store, but since at least one was armed with a firearm, that action hinder them from taking parting shots or making a stand at the doorway. The bad guy did point his gun back inside and fire twice as he was about to exit.
5. Had the outside camera been monitored, it would have been obvious that they were entering with at least one weapon being concealed and ready for quick use.
6. The clerk appeared to be starting to work the action of his pistol at the end of the video....perhaps as part of a reload
7. It didn't appear as if there were any hits .
Added: I see from one of Ichiban's links that they did actively go after the other clerk and more shots were fired.
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Glad he didn't get blown away after the initial failed gun grab.
Dumb luck he didn't shoot the other clerk.
He REALLY doesn't know how to run that pistol, dropping the mag on the draw.
Sight picture? What's a sight picture?
Those bullets flying out the door and into street are million dollar lawsuits looking for a place land. Had one hit an innocent, he might be in prison for long, long time and all gun owners would be demonized yet again.
Spray and pray is better suited for an AK than a handgun.
From the the WSMV link:
So that's why the man who served seven years in the Iraq Army usually stands outside each night keeping an eye on who is around.
“But last night, I forgot. We were busy or something for some reason,” said Alakabi.
I think an AK is what he is more familiar with...along with every other Iraqi over the age of 7.
His situational awareness got sidetracked. Nearly cost him his life.
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1. I'd say that the video shows the value of being armed, as it made the goblins flee. Much better than unarmed and at the mercy of thugs.
2. It's hard to guess how stress and adrenaline affected his gun handling, but my 2nd point was that it shows the value of more practice/training under stress.
3. I'm glad no good guys were injured and hope the goblins consider a new line of work.
The little old lady with the .38 in a recent post missed too, but having a gun kept her from molestation and annoyance.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=15814.0 (http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=15814.0)
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Holes in the merchandise, walls, ceiling????
At least 5.
BG's hit????
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Glad it deterred the crime, however, this is how innocent bystanders, and 5 year olds get shot.
He needs to realize training, and range time, can go a long way...Shooting randomly "in that direction" is irresponsible in a scenario like the vid.
Armchair quarterbacking is tough as we weren't there under those circumstances, however, everything I've seen, read, been taught, and listened to, is not just shooting over my head "toward the BG"....
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Well, he sure does need training.
While I'll not judge his "suppressive fire" because it looks as if that almost surely prevented harm from coming to the other store occupant and perhaps himself as it put the bad guys on the defensive.
However, he appeared to have clear shots at the two as they scrambled for the door and still made no hits.
Shooting at the retreating bad guys seemed justified to me because one of them still carried his firearm and did turn to fire twice as he was leaving. In my opinion they were threats until they were out of the shop.
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The news story said he learned to shoot in the Iraqi army.
Why am I not surprised?
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It worked. It could have been prettier. But his objectives were to defend himself and his friend. He suceeded. He laid down suppresive fire and the BGs left. Could a civilian have been hurt? Yeah. Does any army in the world train you to honestly give a damn in that kind of situation? No. Maybe he should have shot throgh the shelves, it was concealment not cover. Maybe he shouldn't have fired blind. Maybe he shouldn't have kept shooting when they ran. BUT, they ran and kept running. Problem solved. If a five year old had been hit, as far as I am concerned, it should be on the heads of the robbers and no one else. Felony murder is on the books for a reason. Just thinking out loud.
FQ13
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It probably will surprise many of you who think I belong to the "Kill'em all, God can sort them out" school of thought but I don't really agree with what FQ posted. Any responsible shooter has to take responsibility for where his rounds end up.
If I get shot, I want it to be because some one was mad at me, not because some loser tried to rob a store 2 blocks away.
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I'm just glad to see them fight back. His gun play was sloppy but I hate it when they interview the authorities and they say "Just don't fight back give them what they want you could get hurt" I say thats the reason crime is as bad as it is. Any one who owns a gun has a responsability to get training and keep up the training. But just being a scared sheep among wolves just invites the wolves to a free lunch.
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Well put
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It probably will surprise many of you who think I belong to the "Kill'em all, God can sort them out" school of thought but I don't really agree with what FQ posted. Any responsible shooter has to take responsibility for where his rounds end up.
If I get shot, I want it to be because some one was mad at me, not because some loser tried to rob a store 2 blocks away.
With you, there is probably a decent chance of you getting your wish. ;D Actually in a smalltown like yours the odds of stray fire are low. In an urban environment? I am amazed that more folks aren't killed by stray rounds. Everytime I red "cops fire 24 rounds at gunman" and then read that the guy was hit twice I wonder where the other 22 went. This is doubly true if the shooter is on a roof, or in an apartment building, or behind a glass window. I ouldn't reccomed doing what the shooter did, but if that widow backed up to a field verus say a busy street, I'm not goining to be too hard him.
FQ13
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With you, there is probably a decent chance of you getting your wish. ;D Actually in a smalltown like yours the odds of stray fire are low. In an urban environment? I am amazed that more folks aren't killed by stray rounds. Everytime I red "cops fire 24 rounds at gunman" and then read that the guy was hit twice I wonder where the other 22 went. This is doubly true if the shooter is on a roof, or in an apartment building, or behind a glass window. I ouldn't reccomed doing what the shooter did, but if that widow backed up to a field verus say a busy street, I'm not goining to be too hard him.
FQ13
I better double check my Medication, I actually agree with FQ . :o
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The ultimate lesson from the video? It is much better to be armed than not.
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The ultimate lesson from the video? It is much better to be armed than not.
Amen!