The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on March 25, 2011, 08:10:50 PM
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Take a listen.
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/robert-farago/open-carry-confrontation/
Philadelphia. It’s only a matter of time before the cops shoot an open carry advocate. Whose fault would that be? Who would that please?
The background conversation is interesting if you hear it.....
He was later exonerated...and all charges were dropped.
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Not surprising from the PD that burned down a complete city block about twenty years ago...
phuq them...
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The shield says "Honor-Service-Integrity"
It doesn't say anything about being able to read their own directives or laws.
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GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20
TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA
1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “FIREARMS” IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.
2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:
“OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.
“OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S
PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.
“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
VEHICLE.
3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.
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Arguing the law at gunpoint with a LEO is risky at best.
One perceived 'wrong' move and your family will be dealing with the consequences. This could have been handled better on both ends.
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The cop is an idiot and doesn't have the knowledge he needs, but the citizen needs to watch The Best Defense episode on not debating/arguing your Rights in this situation.
Cops were wrong and citizen handled it poorly ... Glad he lived ... But then again I was getting a headache from the sound quality and didn't make it all the way through.
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Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died defending his right of way.
His Right was clear,
His Will was strong
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
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The cop is an idiot and doesn't have the knowledge he needs, but the citizen needs to watch The Best Defense episode on not debating/arguing your Rights in this situation.
Cops were wrong and citizen handled it poorly ... Glad he lived ... But then again I was getting a headache from the sound quality and didn't make it all the way through.
BINGO!!! Something I've included in my gun permit classes, "The time to defend your actions, or question those of a LEO is NOT while you're looking down the business end of his firearm."
Here lies the body of John O'Day
Who died defending his right of way.
His Right was clear,
His Will was strong
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
VERY well stated!!
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The shield says "Honor-Service-Integrity"
It doesn't say anything about being able to read their own directives or laws.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20
TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA
1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “FIREARMS” IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.
2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:
“OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.
“OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S
PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.
“CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
VEHICLE.
3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arguing the law at gunpoint with a LEO is risky at best.
One perceived 'wrong' move and your family will be dealing with the consequences. This could have been handled better on both ends.
Problem with the above is that in PA the state occupies the whole field of firearm law and the city is NOT allowed to change it. If it is legal in PA it is legal in Philly!
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Problem with the above is that in PA the state occupies the whole field of firearm law and the city is NOT allowed to change it. If it is legal in PA it is legal in Philly!
Philly didn't change it.
The PA law created a 'special' requirement for population centers over a milliion, which there is only one - Philly.
That seems to be the gist of #3 above - telling the cops that open carry is now legal with a CCW. Too bad they don't know care about the law.
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Philadelphia. It’s only a matter of time before the cops shoot at.....
Fixed it for you. With the currently greatly reduce requirements to be a Philly cop, the chances of a hit on target are small.
Frank Rizzo spins in his grave.
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Good ole Frank, I thought I was the only one who remembered him.
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Good ole Frank, I thought I was the only one who remembered him.
The Cisco Kid would have beat the snot out of him with his nightstick, sold the gun and given the money to Rev. Sullivian. (maybe just bought a nice present for his own mom).
Arguing with a police officer who is pointing a firearm at you is stupid.
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I agree that it is stuiped ta argue wiht an officer if heis pointing a gun at you. While at the same time, it would make the hair on the back of my neck stand up if the officer is irrate such as this one was ande told me to get on my knees. I can not honestly say how I would have handled that
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No matter WHO it is, it's stupid to argue with some one pointing a gun at you, either comply or shoot, the time for words is gone.
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Or another cop is going to get his taser out. They wont go all "Rodney King" on you but you are still going to be sorry, it you don't get shot first.
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A few things come to mind after listening to the whole audio.
1) The cops were IGNORANT OF THE LAW and/or Directive 137
2) The Lawful Gun Owner, was a little too mouthy arguing with an IGNORANT cop with an attitude problem, and a drawn weapon. Escalating the situation, that only led to the second cop "forcing him to comply".
3) With several states becoming/considering/passing, new open carry laws, this is becoming more common.
4) There will always be IGNORANT cops, not all, but some.
5) Until those cops become LESS IGNORANT, and you are lawfully openly carrying, DON"T ARGUE!
This all could have been avoided, if he put his hands on his head, got on his knees, let the IGNORANT cop take the weapon, than discuss the permit in his wallet, and directive 137, hopefully a Sgt. or Commander, would have shown up, he would have checked out OK, within the parameters of directive 137, got his gun back, and been on his way.
Pushing the envelope, with an IGNORANT cop pointing his gun at you, is NOT the way to go.
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The fact that he was able to record all of this tells me that most likely he was looking for a confrontation and stardom. It is a teaching tool (not a good one), but beyond that we have given him too much attention.
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Wait till after and sue the crap out of both Cop, and Community. Multi million dollar penalties have a tendency to focus the attention nicely.
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It's always seems the words ignorant and cops collide far too often in the same sentence when these type of situations take place. The downside is the citizen too often pays the price for the cops ignorance. It's time to start hiring smarter cops. Bill T.
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It's always seems the words ignorant and cops collide far too often in the same sentence when these type of situations take place. The downside is the citizen too often pays the price for the cops ignorance. It's time to start hiring smarter cops. Bill T.
I have read that some departments actually have a cap on the IQ for detectives. They limit it to average IQ of 100-110.
The explanation given was that they found folks with a higher IQ became dissatisfied with the job quickly and moved on.
This was just one source, so I'm not at all sure how accurate or wide spread the practice might be, if it is accurate.
Anyone have more insight?
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Wasn't it Dayton, Ohio that was going to lower the passing score for the test to become a police officer there so more blacks could pass? Too many blacks were failing it compared to white officers. So this was their "solution". ::) Bill T.
http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/local/dayton-police-exam-changed/
"Dayton is making it easier to pass its exam for police recruits as part of an agreement with the Department of Justice aimed at increasing the number of black officers in the Ohio city."
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There is a guy up here that forces confrontations with police. He did it with the Minneapolis and MSP Airport police to name a couple. If he gets touched after he has been asked to leave then he sues the officer and department.
A court order from September 2008, prohibited weapons from jail facilities, County Court facilities, and the Minneapolis City Hall which are part of the Federal Fourth Judicial District courthouse complex. The Officer disarmed the guy by removing the loaded magazine from the gun and the live round in the chamber. The gun was returned unloaded to and the officer asked him to leave.
The guy's wife was there to video tape the confrontation.
If you watch the video all the action takes place in the first two minutes.
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I'm not sure how the officer could have been any more patient or polite to this guy. As for the guy doing the arguing, the term "asshat" comes to mind.
There is a guy up here that forces confrontations with police. He did it with the Minneapolis and MSP Airport police to name a couple. If he gets touched after he has been asked to leave then he sues the officer and department.
A court order from September 2008, prohibited weapons from jail facilities, County Court facilities, and the Minneapolis City Hall which are part of the Federal Fourth Judicial District courthouse complex. The Officer disarmed the guy by removing the loaded magazine from the gun and the live round in the chamber. The gun was returned unloaded to and the officer asked him to leave.
The guy's wife was there to video tape the confrontation.
If you watch the video all the action takes place in the first two minutes.