The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Hazcat on March 09, 2008, 08:31:13 AM
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Any one have info / opinions on the 7.62 x 25 round?
There are C&R CZ52 and Romanian guns available that shoot this but I don't know anything about the round (although it is available at good prices).
MB (and others)
The Walther P-1 is also available.
MB is yours the P-1 or the P-38? What is the diff (other than when made)?
Thanks all!
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I have a CZ52 in 7.62x25. It is of excellent quality for a milsurp handgun at its price point. "The word" on some forums is the firing pin will snap and needs replacement. No biggie as replacements are available and afordable. My firing pin is still goin strong. I do not like shooting the CZ more than a couple of mags as the trigger pinches my finger. This seems to be a crapshoot as some report no problem with trigger pinching while others do.
The Romanian Tokarovs seem over priced to me for a Milsurp but I have not examined one. I have examined the Chinese Toks and a quality gun based on this design would make an interesting addition to the gun safe. The Chinese guns left much to be desired.
The 7.62x25 round itself seems reasonably accurate. It's just a hot 30 calibre which would be OK for short range varmint hunting if you were so inclined. The S&B stuff is good.
I have examined a couple of Walther P1's at the LGS. I understand they are West German police surplus. Both guns I examined had triggers that required two mules and a boy to pull. I wasn't interested at the price point. You may want to check out:
http://www.waltherforums.com/vb/
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Check out this site and demonstration. It seems that the 7.62x25 round is under rated. I know it shoots hard from my CZ52. You know you have fired more than a 9mm.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
Dave ;)
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Check out this site and demonstration. It seems that the 7.62x25 round is under rated. I know it shoots hard from my CZ52. You know you have fired more than a 9mm.
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
Dave ;)
WOW! Out did a .357! I may have to get one of these. Might be a good side arm when pig hunting as penetration is key and those hogs are TOUGH!
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dgray,
Have you ever shot or handled the Romanian Tokerov? On the Box O Truth site he says that the trigger is better and so are the sights. Whatcha think?
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The TT would be my choice, the 762x25 is said to be able to defeat body armor and some put it in the class of the .44 magnum. pretty hot round. I read the box report and I think Chuck Hawks says some good things about it. Cheap firepower. ;D
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Thanks 2HOW
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The difference between a P-38 and a P-1 is that the P-1 has an alloy frame. The Chinese Tokerevs that I've owned were 9 mm , crappy workmanship but they all shot well. I find the comments about 7.62 x 25 hard to believe, if some one told me the ballistics were similar to a .357 Sig (which it resembles, being a bottle necked pistol cartridge) I would find it easier to believe. Comparing it to a .357 or .44 Magnum seems ridiculous.
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Watch out for the decockers on the CZ52's as there are some documented mishaps with them. Other then that they are great pistols. Get the improved firing pin and new spare rollers just in case they need to be replaced any time soon. It is a very under rated cartridge for SD. The rollers are the only off the wall thing that you need to keep on eye on as far as maintenance. It would be nice if good SD ammo was more available for 7.62x25.
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The firing pins are cast and will break if dry-fired but should last a long time otherwise. The 7.62x25mm was the worlds highest velocity pistol round until the .357 mag displaced it. It still will do a job on most soft body armor, one test it went through 22 layers of Kevlar, a pine 4x4 and lodged in the 19th layer of the back section, it was a 2nd chance (IIRC). The CZ52 is one of the strongest pistols ever built for the round. IF I had the spare coin I would have a couple CZs and a couple cases of ammo.
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Watch out for the decockers on the CZ52's as there are some documented mishaps with them. Other then that they are great pistols. Get the improved firing pin and new spare rollers just in case they need to be replaced any time soon. It is a very under rated cartridge for SD. The rollers are the only off the wall thing that you need to keep on eye on as far as maintenance. It would be nice if good SD ammo was more available for 7.62x25.
That's part of the reason I'm leaning toward the Romanian Tokerov. Also the Tok breaks down very similar to a 1911.
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I hate the Tok, I have seen too many fail or malfunction, but that is just me.
For good info and links to parts for the CZ52;
http://www.makarov.com/cz52/ (http://www.makarov.com/cz52/)
just about anything you could want or need, they have links to reloading data for the 7.62x25mm as well. Sorry I didn't post this earlier, just found it again.
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I just found 7.62x25mm SD ammo. Wolf Gold-line 85gr JHP (Brass/Boxer) $160 a case delivered from ammoman.com
Did I mention that the CZ52 was the only pistol rated to fire the higher powered SMG ammo for the PPSH 41, you will destroy a Tok with that stuff.
Good info at the box O' truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu25.htm (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu25.htm)
a good article on a modified CZ52
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_159_26/ai_90099729 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_159_26/ai_90099729)
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I just found 7.62x25mm SD ammo. Wolf Gold-line 85gr JHP (Brass/Boxer) $160 a case delivered from ammoman.com
Did I mention that the CZ52 was the only pistol rated to fire the higher powered SMG ammo for the PPSH 41, you will destroy a Tok with that stuff.
Good info at the box O' truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu25.htm (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu25.htm)
That has been recanted.
In March 2000, Ted Curtis, ballistician at Accurate Arms, sent a letter to industry leaders and some consumers prior to the May 2000 published release the new higher pressure loads for the CZ52: ""7.62 X 25 Tokarev .. Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier & Bellot was also tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent pressures between all other types and manufactures was a welcome surprise . Indeed, the fact that Czech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol, produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo tested certainly doesn't support this theory."" Since that letter and book, AA has recanted the high pressure loads for the CZ52 and now offers for free, corrected low pressure loads for the CZ52 on the AA web site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev
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762x25 ammunition
is an extremely ''hot'' calibre reputed to fall somewhere between .357 and .44 magnum in power and among the most frequently asked questions among firearms collectors are ''Is it the same as .30 Mauser?'' and ''How hot is it?'' followed by ''What's the hottest?''.
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''Is it the same as .30 Mauser?''
The short answer is ''NO!". There are several differences between the two and I will leave it to the died-in-the-wool techies to cover exactly what they are. According to Frank C. Barnes' Cartridges of the World (6th edition), ''The (7.62 Russian Tokarev) is very similar to the 7.63 millimeter Mauser and some brands of Mauser ammunition can be fired in the Tokarev pistol.'' The same holds true for the Czech CZ52, however, it is not advisable to fire the 7.62x25 in firearms designed for the 7.63mm ''30Mauser'' cartridge. While Barnes indicates German field loads for the .30Mauser (generating 1410 fps) are actually hotter than the Russian x25 (1390 fps), 7.62x25 ammunition from several other Communist bloc countries and the People's Republic of China is frequently hotter than the German Field load for the 30Mauser. I, personally, have chronographed 1983 production Chinese that edged 1500 fps.
In his discussion of the .30Mauser cartridge, Barnes notes ''Until the .357 Magnum revolver cartridge came along, the 30Mauser was the high-velocity champion of the pistol world. It has a flat trajectory that makes long-range hits possible, but lacks stopping power on man or heavy animals because of the light full-jacketed bullet.''
These words hold equally true for the FMJ 7.62x25.
Here it may be useful to note that Barnes shows various standard .357Magnum loads to develop between 1235 fps and 1445 fps. He shows various standard .44 Magnum to develop between 1350 fps and 1560 fps.
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How hot is x25?
I will report results here from two separate sources, Ken Shackleford's reloading page ( http://w3.one.net/~melchar/tokarev/ ) and a report from Bill Krause who frequents the c-r-ffl ''board''. Essentially, the available data indicates 7.62x25 average muzzle along the lines of the .44Magnum, while the 30Mauser cartridge equates to the .357Magnum when compare raw muzzle velocity.
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Shackleford's Reloaders' Pages
Regarding the CZ52 pistols and hot ammunition, Shackleford has noted, ''...the old Czech pistol seems to like about anything I throw at it... the more powerful, the better. :-) Could get a guy in trouble. Be careful.'' Shackleford's pages (link above) contain a good deal of information besides the simple muzzle velocities being discussed here. I would highly recommend a visit to his page for anyone conducting in-depth research into the properties of the 7.62x25 and 30Mauser cartridges. As of December 14, 1998, Shackleford indicates completed testing on ten individual batches of ammunition-- seven being 7.62x25 and three of 30Mauser.
By raw muzzle velocity, Shackleford shows one batch of Sellier and Beillot x25 to be the hottest peppers in the garden at 1545 fps. He indicates a second batch generating 1525 fps. Given the headstamp info, I am unable to determine the specific difference between the two batches-- but I'm not a big 'headstamp' kinda guy.
Second in sheer speed is a batch of Bulgarian surplus x25 (possibly 1950s) at 1543 fps. Third on the list would be 1990s production Norinco Chinese x25 flying at 1499 fps.
Fourth and fifth speediest comes back to Eastern Europe with Polish surplus at 1483 fps and the supposedly ultra-hot Czechoslovakian with magnetic slugs at 1482 fps. I might add here that several shooters (myself included) have had a notable misfire rate with the Polish surplus.
Here comes China again at sixth place on Shackleford's Countdown. His tested batch of 1980s production Chinese chronoed at 1478 fps. Interestingly enough, it was 1980s Chinese that I chronoed edging 1500. My AVERAGE, however, probably agrees with Shackleford's. I am also not a mathematics fan, so my series of 25 shots through the chrono were more of a ''gee whiz'' scenario than a formal test-- ie: I didn't write all the shots down and divvy out the average.
Seventh place in Shackleford's x25/30Mauser testing went to SBP's 30Mauser at 1463 fps. Eighth to a batch of Hansen 30Mauser at 1378. The Russian x25Tokarev as Barnes had discussed above chronoed at an average of 1354 fps for ninth place. And a batch of Fiocchi came wandering last over the finish line at a ''mere'' 1318 fps.
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Factory Load Ammunition For The CZ 52
by Bill Krause
Sample 1-Chineese Norinco-Yellow box 60 rounds per box. Case copper washed steel. Berdan primed Headstamp 12 o'clock=947 6o'clock 93 Charge: 8.8 grains of darker colored extruded powder. Bullet 85.5 grain copper wash jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ.
Sample 2-Chineese-Brown box , some with Chineese characters, 70 rounds per box . Case copper washed steel. Berdan primed Headstamp 12 O Clock two parallel lines like ll 6 O Clock 92 Charge: 8.8 grains of darker colored extruded powder, appears to be the same as sample 1. Bullet 86.5 grain copper washed jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ Appears slightly different than sample one.
Sample 3-Czech-Labeled by my gun shop as "too hot" for a Broomhandle. Brown boxes labeled 7,62 mm naboje pistoletowe 70 szi 70 rounds per box. Brass case Berdan primed
Headstamp 54 at 12 O Clock design of a crown at 6 O Clock Charge 8.3 grains of fine grain light colored extruded powder. Bullet 86 grain jacket reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ.
Sample 4-Eastern European-Looks like a lot like a scaled down version of my S&B 7.62X39 Enamel painted steel case Berdan primed Headstamp 10 O Clock 53, 2 O Clock bxn, 6 O Clock l Charge 10.1 grains of dark flake powder. Bullet 84.4 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ On stripper clips.
Sample 5-Czech M48-A purported sample of the legendary Czech ammo it is suppose to be armor piercing and is no longer available. Enamel painted steel case very similar in appearance to sample 4 . Berdan primed Headstamp 6 O Clock 52, 10 O Clock oxm, 2 O Clock l Charge 9.8 grains of dark flake powder. Bullet 84.6 grain Nickel or Chrome plated jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ on stripper clips.
Sample 6-Sellier & Bellot (Modern)-Brass case Boxer primed Headstamp 12 O Clock S&B, 6 O Clock 7.62x25, 2 O Clock 10 Charge 7.9 grains of silvery ball powder Bullet 84.8 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and lead cored FMJ
Sample 7-Sellier& Bellot 7,63 Mauser(older)-Brass case Berdan primed Headstamp12 O Clock SBP 6 O Clock 7.63 Charge 8.7 grains of light colored flake powder Bullet 84.5 grain copper (?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and is lead cored FMJ Bullet is cantalouvered
Sample 8-Fiocchi 7,63 Mauser-Brass case Boxer primed Headstamp 12 O Clock
GFI 6 O Clock 7.63 Mauser Charge 5.5 grains of silvery flake powder Bullet 86.5 grain
Copper jacket FMJ Bullet is canalouvered No magnetic reaction to either case or bullet
Sample 9-Winchester 7.63 Mauser- At least 60 years old Brass case Boxer primed
Headstamp 12 O Clock WRAGo 6 O Clock 7.63 Mauser Charge 6.1 grains of silvery flake powder. Bullet is 86 grain lead (?) hollow point cantalouvered No magnetic reaction to either case or bullet.
Sample 10-Bulgarian Mil Surp- Brass cased Berdan primed Headstamp 12 O Clock
* (a star) 6 O Clock 52, 9 O Clock 3, 3 O Clock 10 Charge 8.3 grains of very fine grained silvery gray extruded powder. 85.7 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and is lead cored FMJ bullet. Posted by a fellow called NRAjoe on another forum.
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The difference between a P-38 and a P-1 is that the P-1 has an alloy frame. The Chinese Tokerevs that I've owned were 9 mm , crappy workmanship but they all shot well. I find the comments about 7.62 x 25 hard to believe, if some one told me the ballistics were similar to a .357 Sig (which it resembles, being a bottle necked pistol cartridge) I would find it easier to believe. Comparing it to a .357 or .44 Magnum seems ridiculous.
Have you ever fired a cz52 with the 7.62x25 round? especially at a piece of body armor? I have i watched it go through the front and back of a standard balistic vest worn by law enforcement. I have watched it go through an aluminum block of an engine. you are talking about a high velocity pistol round of a similar calibre to a deadly rifle/assautl round...
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Ridiculous, HUH? ???
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I can tell you from EXP that the 7.62X 25 is one loud little round. I know it has a rep as a pentraitor, but I don't think it has the mass to be a "man stoper"
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Have you ever fired a cz52 with the 7.62x25 round? especially at a piece of body armor? I have i watched it go through the front and back of a standard balistic vest worn by law enforcement. I have watched it go through an aluminum block of an engine. you are talking about a high velocity pistol round of a similar calibre to a deadly rifle/assautl round...
I did qualify those statements with "hard to believe" and "seems" , To answer your question, No I've never seen a 7.62 X 25 go through anything, I've never shot the round, only seen one once, It did not look very impressive based on size and aparent powder capacity. I find it hard to doubt you guys, my reloading book doesn't list it, so this goes in the same catagory with 100 yard hits with a .45 1911. I didn't beleive that till I saw the fist fire videos on this website, I'll keep an open mind till I run across a chance to see for myself. TABs comment is food for additional thought.
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
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http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mmJHPs.html
remember penatration means very little... Energy transfer is what counts.
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I agree TAB, just showing that in general the penetration talk was true concerning this round.
For everyday personal protection I would rather have my .380.
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I'd rather have a 45...
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Well Yeah, but I'm talking about what I actually carry.
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So was I ;D ... I carryed my commader for years, then I bought my 1st delta eilte.
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
WOW !
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that is an interesting link, I knew it would go through a vest, which is soft kevlar, but through the new midge helmets WOW. of course i find it humorous the army tests them with 5.56 and I never got shot at by 5.56 but sure did have ALOT of 7.62 shot at me in afghanistan and i know iraq is the same..hrmmmm