The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ronlarimer on April 14, 2011, 09:29:26 PM
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This is cross posted from another forum I am on, but I though the information was good enough to be shared.
The gist of the thread was that a poster (BikerRN) was considering carrying a 5" 1911 as a BUG for his other 5" 1911 and someone threw out the line, the fastest reload is another gun. I disagreed with that idea and set out to test it.
So I shot each of the following strings with my 2 carry guns... a Glock 19 and a PM9 out of Comp-Tac Holsters and Mag Pouches, except for bug pocket carry which was from a Galco pocket holster.
Control - Open Carry with OWB Mag Pouch
Test 1 - Open Carry with Mag in Pocket (pants)
Test 2 - Open Carry with Bug in in appendix carry, holster primary
Test 3 - Open Carry with Bug in in appendix carry, drop primary
Test 4 - Concealed Carry with OWB Mag Pouch
Test 5 - Concealed Carry with Mag in Pocket (pants)
Test 6 - Concealed Carry with Mag in Pocket (coat)
Test 7 - Concealed Carry with BUG in Pocket (coat), retain primary weak hand only
Test 8 - Concealed Carry with BUG in Pocket (coat), holster primary
Test 9 - Concealed Carry with BUG in Pocket (coat), drop primary
Test 10 - Concealed Carry with BUG in appendix carry, holster primary
Test 11 - Concealed Carry with BUG in appendix carry, drop primary
I forgot my video but I ran the test anyway tonight. *I feel pretty good about the results of this test because they are consistant with most of training sessions. *As mentioned in my previous post I shot a 1-R-2 drill at seven yards. *My draw times were pretty consistantly around 1.6 secs and while I am not fast with the trigger my .48 sec splits are consistant with aimed shots from me at 7 yds. *I attempted to get all A zone hits but threw a number of BUG shots high and/or left due to snatching the trigger, only 2 rds were non C zone (Poor grip sent 2 rounds high in the head, barely on paper from the bug). *All shots were on the IDPA target.
Below are my results and a fairly good approximation on my entry to my range journal.
(http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_results.gif) (http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_results.gif)
Across all of the differnt variations, for me on this day, a reload averaged .8 seconds faster than going to a second gun.
Beyond answering that question I learned a ton of additional information, including...
- For me the difference between open carrying and wearing my normal light coat is .17 seconds to the 1st shot.
- Appendix carry is sickening fast
- If you are going to carry a second gun... *Shoot it with the hand you draw if with. *I attempted to obtain a master grip with my right hand AFTER getting one with the right and the PM9 riped a hole in my right hand.
- Taking a slide to the thumb will make me a little slow for the next few draws
- If my choice is carry a second gun in my coat pocket or a magazine in my front pants pocket I should take the 2nd magazine. It is dead heat to reload, but when I am done I have 15rds and my primary gun.
- Train to drop your primary, it takes me more than 1.3 seconds longer to reholster it than to just drop it.
- Odd things happen under stress... *I forgot my left handed grip, I F'n lost my BUG on one drill when it ended up in my primary's holster.
- Pick a method and stick with it. *On multiple occasions, many of which were thrown out, I went to the wrong place when trying to change. *I nearly always swept my coat out of the way when attempting to get a magazine out of my coat pocket.
- A coat pocket is the worst place for my spare magazine... It recalls muscle memory from my training and swings away when trying to extract the magazine.
- A coat pocket is the worst place for my second gun... It is too heavy to be carried on the strong side because on the draw makes the coat flop oddly, it swings away when trying to extract the gun, it is slow.
- Appendix carry is sickening fast
- My accuracy and splits are better with my primary (.16 better), why not fight with my primary
All of my data can be seen in the file linked below
http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_test.xlsx (http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_test.xlsx)
All and all this is some of the most fun I have had at the range. *I highly recommend testing yourself in this way. *I changed my sights last night to the Warren Tactical Sevigny Carry Sights with FO front and really like them. *This test was my 1st session with them (obvious) and only fired 1 mag through the gun first to ensure they were centered. *Also due to all of the draw/reload practice I was feeling froggy and decided to run the Fast Drill... *I shot a 4.6x -2 and a clean sub 6 second run which is blazing fast for me (I normally run 6.5-6.8 - 1). *I also shot the bill drill that gave me fits last trip from the Air Marshal test and got 6 rounds, all hits, from the low ready in 2.00.
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I prefer the Angelina Jolie as Laura Croft school of thought. Two BFGs, one in each hand. Even if I do have to reload, they'll be too busy staring at my tits to notice. ;D
FQ13
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Even if I do have to reload, they'll be too busy staring at my tits to notice. ;D
FQ13
if this is true then you have bigger problems than worrying about a reload... ;D
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if this is true then you have bigger problems than worrying about a reload... ;D
Speaking in character as as Jolie dufus! My scrawny self couldn't manage a man boob if I tried. ;D
FQ13
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Impressive test, and I applaud the initiative to attempt it. The scientist in me forces me to ask a question though. How many times did you repeat each test? It appears as though you ran each one multiple times since you provide the averages, but I don't see the count.
Thanks for the info.
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Impressive test, and I applaud the initiative to attempt it. The scientist in me forces me to ask a question though. How many times did you repeat each test? It appears as though you ran each one multiple times since you provide the averages, but I don't see the count.
Thanks for the info.
2-4 and all of the data is included in the link to the spreadsheet. Is it a perfect sample, no but I spent 100rds on it, my performance appears pretty consistent and there were clear patterns. If I ran each drill 100 times I would likely get proficient in other carry methods that would bring the delta down, but I doubt that it would change the outcome.
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2-4 and all of the data is included in the link to the spreadsheet. Is it a perfect sample, no but I spent 100rds on it, my performance appears pretty consistent and there were clear patterns. If I ran each drill 100 times I would likely get proficient in other carry methods that would bring the delta down, but I doubt that it would change the outcome.
Thanks for answering. I figured it was in the link, but I can't get it to cooperate. I wasn't doubting your work; I just had to ask out of curiousity. We know that it would be ideal to run each test 30+ times with multiple people, but that's just not feasible for the average guy for multiple reasons (money, time, stamina, etc.).
You provided us with a great example and lots of info. You may have even motivated some of us to give it a try ourselves. Thanks again.
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Thanks for answering. I figured it was in the link, but I can't get it to cooperate. I wasn't doubting your work; I just had to ask out of curiousity. We know that it would be ideal to run each test 30+ times with multiple people, but that's just not feasible for the average guy for multiple reasons (money, time, stamina, etc.).
You provided us with a great example and lots of info. You may have even motivated some of us to give it a try ourselves. Thanks again.
Right click the link and select save as.
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Right click the link and select save as.
Still can't get it to work, but it's probably on my end. Likely either Vista or my old version of excel's fault.
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This is the same analysis saved to an earlier version... http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_test.xls (http://ronlarimer.com/TEMP/reload_test.xls)
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The last link works for me. Thanks for the report.
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So the ancillary question is, two guns same hand or two guns different hands?
(http://www.gamewallpapers.us/wallpapers/hitman-contracts/b/two-guns-wallpaper.jpg)
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Lot of work in that test. I would of said a reload, but not a FTF reload. Easy to pull and insert a mag than go for a BUG. Makes sense.