The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on April 28, 2011, 12:04:00 AM
-
I've owned a few generators over the last few years, and have learned a few basic facts. More power means more noise. More power means more fuel used no matter what load you put on the generator. And in most normal conditions our family rarely uses more than a few hundred watts power at any given time (fridge - 150watts, 60" tv - 200watts, microwave 1000, washing machine 60-700 depending on cycle). The exceptions are of course our 220 volt water heater, 220 volt cloths dryer, central A/C and furnace. Running them isn't an option with this little geny, but in all honesty, their not needed to get by in an emergency in SC.. I can heat / purify small amounts of water with the microwave.
Sooo, head for you local Autozone! I've been shopping around online for a while and can't even come close to the price Autozone has on this little thing ($80 Bucks!). When shopping, forget the rating you see on chinese generators. I saw this same generator with different paint colors rated at anywhere between 900, and 1400 watts max load! I tested mine with a "Kilawatt" meter, and a hair dryer to provide an adjustable load. At 110 watts, and 240 watts, it barely changes idle sound at all. At 480 watts you hear it come under a little load. At 810, and 1110 watts it sounds like it's got a normal working load, and at 1476 watts it ran fine for about 20 seconds, then quickly bogged down and puttered before I shut off the hair dryer. Those numbers are just what I was able to get by changing settings on a 1875 watt hair dryer (1476 was at full power, never did get a "1875 watt" load out of it).
After watching a few youtube videos, and reading other peoples reviews on similar generators, I picked up two NGK plugs (#7333) and changed out the Chinese plug before I even tried to start this the first time. They also recommended the chaff guard you see on the spark plug wire, and that buyers should check torque on EVERY nut, bolt, and screw (I DID find a few needing adjustment). I also used the three prong plug provided with the geny to make the red ground cable in the pics (you need to ground ANY generator to an earth ground before running them or risk electrocution.)
For my break in and testing run I used a 32 to 1 oil ratio. First time I tried, the geny started on the sixth pull with the choke on. After that, even with an hour cool down it started on the first pull every time without the choke. :))
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/Photo0812.jpg?t=1303964536)
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/Photo0808.jpg?t=1303964572)
It's actually running with an 1110 watt load in this pic.. Never saw even a trace of smoke from the exhaust during the entire break in (kinda unusual for a 2 stroke).
Voltage varied between 115VAC, and 117VAC depending on load. Hz ranged from 60.2, to 62.3 depending on load. Once the load was applied the readings held VERY steady, they only fluctuated when I changed the wattage load on the geny. If wanted, there is a governor adjustment screw on the right side of the geny that allows fine tuning of voltage and Hz. I didn't see a need to change anything with this particular unit.
Most important thing about this geny? It'll run 8.5 hours at a 400 watt load on ONE GALLON OF GAS! Run time drops to 6.5 hrs per gallon at full load. It has a 1.2 gallon tank. I filled it 1/3 full and ran it till empty for testing / break in. Got about 3 hours on it.
YES, it's louder than a 4 stroke. Not a LOT though. You have to raise your voice to have a conversation standing directly over it. And if it's outside your glass door, you'll know if its running or not in the house. But can hear a tv over it at normal volume. Our 3,000 watt chinese 4 stroke IS quieter overall. But uses MUCH more fuel. Our "Wheelhouse" brand 5500 watt 4 stroke is twice as loud as this little 1,000 watt unit, and SWILLS the gas!
It's cheap, but fills a need!
-
Excellent informaton Badgersmilk! and written so that even I, with only a meagre knowledge of electrics, could understand it. I suspect that my water well pump uses a little more juice than a hair dryer and I've been thinking about getting a dedicated generator for it for some time now - thanks for the reminder,
MP
-
A couple important things I forgot to mention.
A LOT of the reviews I read on Chinese generators mention that they don't produce quite as much power as rated. Or just don't run well. I think people are seeing this because their running 87 octane gas. In one SMALL place in the manual it mentions that this (and all Chinese motors in my experience) needs high octane fuel (90+). I've seen this make a BIG difference in my kids chinese made scooter. And found the same problem in it's documentation. If you don't read VERY CLOSELY you'll breeze right over the octane requirement in fine print.
Also, this little thing is the first geny I've seen that produces 12 volt power. It has a weird shaped plug (I intend to replace) that's rated at 10 amps / 12VDC. Reviews on youtube say it works well for charging car batteries... I've yet to check mine to even see if it worked.
Bic, I'd guess you'll need at 3,000 watt geny. Most 3/4 hp motors use about 1800 watts at 120 volts. And 1HP motors are around 2400 watts at 120 volts. The chinese 4 cycle 3,000 watt we had till recently held up really well, and you could speak in a normal voice directly over it (really quite!). I know I for one always think. "If a 3,000 watt geny is good, I want 5,000!" ;D In a power outage gasoline can become REALLY hard to find. The gas stations are out of power to! And can't run their pumps. Something that never occurred to me until I had to deal with it. :-[ That's how I learned to buy as small a geny as you can get by with. Less fuel needed to run it!
-
Thanks for the review.
-
Thanks for the octane rating. I'm not a big fan of 2-stroke engines but I have a couple that I put up with. At those prices though it makes it worth while as a "just-in-case".
-
Good info,.... but remember the Power Equation:
Watts divided by volts = Amps. (Amps are what run things.)
1000 / 120 = 8.333333 amps....( not that much ).
Load management is critical when considering load capacity. But any generator is great if the power goes out and one can keep the fridge, and or other critical items (cell phones, lights, etc,....) going.
2 strokes like high rpm's and clean fuel.... thanks for the info.
-
Thanks for the review and most people use a cheap power cord and that will cause trouble. We lost our electricity for several days and the Power and light guys came by and stated I was the only one he had seen using a 10 ga cord.
-
Thanks for the review and most people use a cheap power cord and that will cause trouble. We lost our electricity for several days and the Power and light guys came by and stated I was the only one he had seen using a 10 ga cord.
Very good reminder, 16g standard ext cords, ......through a 6 gang power strip,....running a fridge/micro/phone charger/etc,... add up..
We run 14g to 15 amps. 16g to no more than 10. Cheap cords "made in China" aren't worth the risk under load.
Point being,...if needed, feel your cord,...if it's warm,.....its straining.... beef up the cord.
It's worth it.
-
What's spec, at least in theatre's, for extention cords is SOOW cable (that's a rubber exterior, resistant to oil and water with a breakdown rating of 600v). It's available at the big box stores. My HD carries it but they don't list it on their big display board. You have to talk the clerk into revolving the wire carousel until you find it. SOW cable would be acceptable in a home/emergency situation, though not as resistant to liquids. You can even use the Junior grade SJOOW/SJOW, just be aware that the insulation (outer covering) isn't as tough. But any of these cables are miles ahead of consumer extension cords.
Cheapest to make them yourself. 12g SOOW runs around $1 a foot and the plug and receptacle around $10 ea. Just remember there is a right and wrong end for the plug and receptacle based on the twist of the wire. [HINT: If you have to cross one wire under another to connect it, you have the wrong end.]
The problem with using 10guage SOOW or even JSOOW s that the wire won't fit into many of the Edison (U.S. standard) plugs and receptacles. Even with 12guage the insulation on SOOW is a tight fit in the shell. Go for the better (more expensive) plugs and receptacles. I prefer to order mine from a theatre supply house (Barbazon or Norcostco or Mutual Hardware) that are made by Bates.
-
Houses (at least in all the states I've lived in) use 14ga for most outlets, lighting, standard 15 amp circuit breakers. 12ga for a 20 amp breaker (outlets in garages, outdoors). The 2hp generator is rated at less than 10 amps, so a 14ga extension cord would actually be fine. Just keep away from the ones that are ridiculous in length. As they will mess up the Hz. you get at the other end of the cord. I THINK the recommended max length for any extension cord is 18'... ?
-
Well Badger, true at short distances 14ga may be fine, problem is most people don't put the generator next to the fridge. To tweak all you can from these generators, especially at 100ft or more a heavier gauge cable will help.
Here's a reference chart with some explanation. 14gauge extension cord pulling 15amps will drop over 9v or more than 7%.
And as far as ridiculously long cables messing up the phasing/frequency; you're talking in terms of miles before that happens. Roughly speaking the wavelength of 60Hz is around 2,500 miles (depending on velocity factor). I don't think a couple of hundred feet is going to be significant.
-
I had no idea anybody ever made an extension cord that long. I remember it being in training manuals to limit extension cords to 18' in length. To many years ago to remember the full explanation of why. ;) But I've seen a 8% change in Hz. (according to a "killawatt" meter grant you) on a 12ga, 60' extension cord running 13.5 amps of power through it (a freezer). Didn't hurt the freezer, but it did cause issues trying to charge a laptop computer. One reason it's recommended to go one size up in wire gauge with an extension cord is that their made from multi-strand wire so they will be flexible. House wiring is single strand = more efficient. It causes less harm to run an oversized extension cord than an undersized one by far!!! So for those convinced "bigger is always better"... Run with it! ;D
Another tip I'd like to pass on is for the new "childproof" or whatever their supposed to be gas cans. I've shopped far and wide for a gas can that just has a plain old spout and vent, but can't find them anymore. The new childproof / safety cans don't have vents at all, and if you keep gas in them for more than one day you'll see them swell and contract a LOT with temperature changes. One I had in my shed swelled to near balloon shape on a hot day! I came up with this idea, and it's served really well on several cans for years now. I drill a hole about 3/8" near the handle on the cans and put in an ear plug. The ear plug allows filtered venting, keeping out contaminates and bugs, and if you knock over the can by accident there won't be any spillage if you catch it soon enough. The cans do swell and contract a TINY bit with temperature, but only a very small amount till the air pushes through the "filter" / ear plug.
One concern I had was that the gas would dissolve the ear plug or something. But I've not seen any sign of this in about 5 years now.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/Photo0813.jpg?t=1304358605)
-
One reason it's recommended to go one size up in wire gauge with an extension cord is that their made from multi-strand wire so they will be flexible. House wiring is single strand = more efficient.
Hmmmm. I had read that electricity is the movement of electrons on the surface of a wire more than internally and, thus, multi-strand wire conducts more electricity than solid wire of the same gauge due to the increased surface area.
Incorrect?
-
I can only tell you for sure what I've seen on meters in use in the field. And on heavy equipment running on 480V. But we've consistently seen multi-strand (and the more strands, the more heat was generated / resistance there was) cause more line loss than solid strand. Could be broken strands in the cable? Maybe, but a lot of the time it was new stock... :-\
-
I had no idea anybody ever made an extension cord that long. I remember it being in training manuals to limit extension cords to 18' in length. To many years ago to remember the full explanation of why. ;) But I've seen a 8% change in Hz. (according to a "killawatt" meter grant you) on a 12ga, 60' extension cord running 13.5 amps of power through it (a freezer). Didn't hurt the freezer, but it did cause issues trying to charge a laptop computer. One reason it's recommended to go one size up in wire gauge with an extension cord is that their made from multi-strand wire so they will be flexible. House wiring is single strand = more efficient. It causes less harm to run an oversized extension cord than an undersized one by far!!! So for those convinced "bigger is always better"... Run with it! ;D
Badger, I'm afraid that's backwards about solid verses stranded wires. Electricity tends to flow in the outside of a conductor; on the surface. A stranded cable has more surface area (adding all the individual strands together) than a solid conductor of the same dimension. Hence stranded wires have less loss. The difference isn't all that significant if you build in a safety factor to begin with.
The reason they use solid conductors in house wiring is primarily cost. (That and they don't need the flexibility) Solid cabling with thin sheaths is cheaper than standed wire, by a greater than 2/1 margin.
And I pretty sure the frequency didn't change 8% over a 60' extension cord. I suspect the meter probably isn't rate for 10% tolerance. Phase shifting may occur but the frequency is a pretty constant thing.
-
Badger, I'm afraid that's backwards about solid verses stranded wires. Electricity tends to flow in the outside of a conductor; on the surface. A stranded cable has more surface area (adding all the individual strands together) than a solid conductor of the same dimension. Hence stranded wires have less loss. The difference isn't all that significant if you build in a safety factor to begin with.
The reason they use solid conductors in house wiring is primarily cost. (That and they don't need the flexibility) Solid cabling with thin sheaths is cheaper than standed wire, by a greater than 2/1 margin.
And I pretty sure the frequency didn't change 8% over a 60' extension cord. I suspect the meter probably isn't rate for 10% tolerance. Phase shifting may occur but the frequency is a pretty constant thing.
Alf is correct on all counts.
Stranded wire will allow more power without dissipating heat better than solid core wire as well.
-
I'm at a loss (And concede that the thread is simply all about drift now). So everybody is 100% sure their houses are wired completely wrong, and that 14gauge wire is just silly for 15 amps? The average strand of wire feeding an outlet in a two story house is what? 30-50'? Buuuut, you need a 10gauge extension cord for a little 8 amp generator that sits right outside you back door?
Sweet! ;)
-
Worth the money when working with 'tricity. ;)
http://www.neccodebooks.com/products/2011-national-electrical-code-9069-11.shtml
-
Normal house wiring is about how many convenience outlets can be associated to a single 15 amp breaker,size of the room etc.... I haven't looked in years but that number used to be 12 I think. In other words, 6 duplex outlets was allowed on that circuit or 5 duplex with an overhead light fixture. Wire of 14 gauge is more than enough to handle that load. When I wired my homes, with an electrical inspectors blessing, I always used 12 gauge wire on a 20 amp dedicated breaker for the refer, dishwasher, clothes washers, etc...and general spent the extra cash to use GFI breakers rather than the outlet types. My kitchens were always over designed because you tend to use larger loads on those circuits.
Remember the load that can be carried is dependent on the breaker size regardless of the gauge of wire used.
Pegleg is more current (no pun intended) on this than I am at this point. My NEC code book is dated about 1988 or so..
-
No No, Badger. Not saying houses are wired wrong. 14gauge solid is find for internal house wiring where the blow dryer is probably one of the heavier loads. And where the electrician has spread out the loads by running seemingly random pattern of outlets and lights on each circuit.
Difference here is trying to squeeze the most out of a small generator. Particularly when trying to run inductive loads, like refrigerators along with as many other things as we can cram on that circuit.
The other factor is a safety one with the covering. Well sheathed SOOW is so much safer than consumer extension cords. They'll take water, oil and other chemicals without breaking down. Plus they'll stand up to physical abuse better. Physical abuse, like foot traffic and trying to close the door or window on them.
Now as to making "connections" with stranded wire: If the connector or circuit breaker is designed for stranded wire it will have a "clamp" of some kind that insure proper contact with the stranded wire. If on the other hand the connector only has a screw and was intended for solid wire, then slip a copper ferrule (sleeve) over the stranded wire before slipping it into the connector. This will insure proper contact with the wire bundle and prevents the set screw from breaking the top set of wires. I also use ferrules in distro and breaker panels with stranded since most circuit breakers were designed for solid. And of course once you get above 6gauge most all wire is stranded anyway.
-
Alf is correct regarding inductive vs. resistive loads..... It's also called inrush or start up current (amps)...
Voltage drop, acceptable,... according to ABYC, ABS, Lloyds, and NEA, is 3% for AC loads, for critical systems,..... hardly a consideration for residential use from a generator. The voltage drop is actually more of a factor for DC loads.
It always comes down to load management. You can't run your window unit, fridge, micro, lamps, blender, and deep freezer on a china made 14/16g ext cord, with a genset rated for 9 amps.
Something will kick out.
Keep your priorities simple, rotate your loads, or buy bigger kw.
-
I hate to get back on subject or anything (gave up on reading posts). But for anyone still interested in a cheap generator, that will run a fair amount of time, using a small amount of fuel...
This is a nice looking option to!
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100637533&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&srccode=cii_16776730&cpncode=22-108000195-2&cm_mmc=shopping-_-pronto-_-25-_-100637533&locStoreNum=1110 (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100637533&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&srccode=cii_16776730&cpncode=22-108000195-2&cm_mmc=shopping-_-pronto-_-25-_-100637533&locStoreNum=1110)
"9hrs run time on 1.3 gallons of gas"! and 1,500 watts continuous supply... NICE! :)
(http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/73/73c372c2-ce00-4626-ba11-73ab2c26a8da_400.jpg)
$200 price tag is still pretty good looking to!
-
http://www.amazon.com/All-Power-America-APG3014-Generator/dp/B00265M9TM/ref=pd_sim_ol_1 (http://www.amazon.com/All-Power-America-APG3014-Generator/dp/B00265M9TM/ref=pd_sim_ol_1)
Similar, but has dual outlets. I question the amperage and HP rating accuracy on ALL the Chinese genys... Note this one is apparently much less efficient (on paper) than the Home Depot geny. I'd wanna bet their both the same motor and generator unit though. Just different paint and control panels. :-\
-
Don't ask me why I'm indulging drift... But I accidentally just found this going through a geny manual. :-\
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/f.jpg?t=1304487959)
-
Don't ask me why I'm indulging drift...
Ah come now Badger, this isn't real drift. I mean if you're buying a generator then proper use/installation would be close to topic.
Real drift would be discussing the types of beer best suited to a power outage.
I was thinking some Dogfish Palo Santo Marron would be might tasty even if the fridge went without power for a day.
(http://www.dogfish.com/files/imagecache/bottleGridSize/palo-santo-marron.png)
-
I was thinking some Dogfish Palo Santo Marron would be might tasty even if the fridge went without power for a day.
(http://www.dogfish.com/files/imagecache/bottleGridSize/palo-santo-marron.png)
DAM IT, I want some of there 120 IPA or some of there other stuff, they don't ship OS though
-
Ah come now Badger, this isn't real drift. I mean if you're buying a generator then proper use/installation would be close to topic.
Real drift would be discussing the types of beer best suited to a power outage.
I was thinking some Dogfish Palo Santo Marron would be might tasty even if the fridge went without power for a day.
(http://www.dogfish.com/files/imagecache/bottleGridSize/palo-santo-marron.png)
;D Before I bought a little generator the first thing I checked was that our fridge only draws 150 watts running with a surge of 220 at startup! ;D
For the guys really wanting a fuel thrifty 4 stroke (don't blame you, but you'll pay twice as much as a 2 stroke), I'd actually buy this one over others I've seen. The review somebody gave it on amazon is worth reading to.
http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/richmedia/images/cover.gif (http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/richmedia/images/cover.gif)
(http://www.maxtool.com/images-400/MX1500.jpg)
Either a pale ale, or a dark lager would be my first choice. Second choice? Anything cold! ;)
-
Anyone find good buys on LP/NG generators?
Don't like the long term/large supply problems associated with gasoline.
-
Home Depot's got a few.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202222977&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-product-2-_-100637527-_-202222977-_-N&locStoreNum=1110 (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=202222977&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC-_-product-2-_-100637527-_-202222977-_-N&locStoreNum=1110)
A few years back I converted our 3,000 watt geny to propane, and plumbed it into the tanks on our camper. The conversion takes about an hour if you doing it the first time, reading over the instructions several times, and all nervous about it ;). It's actually about a 15 minutes of work. ;D
I ordered my kit from here. http://www.propane-generators.com/ (http://www.propane-generators.com/) Worked GREAT! I usually used a remote electric start button, but if you used the pull start the worst I ever had to do was three pulls. Even in 20 deg weather. Supposed to extend the life of the motor several times, and run way cleaner to. I only had the setup a little over a year before selling the whole camper though.
-
Thanks, Badger.
Take care.
-
Ah come now Badger, this isn't real drift. I mean if you're buying a generator then proper use/installation would be close to topic.
(http://www.dogfish.com/files/imagecache/bottleGridSize/palo-santo-marron.png)
yum.....BEER!
Enjoying one of these at the moment...
http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/year-round-brews/indian-brown-ale.htm
-
you suck Timothy,
it is one of the only brews I really want to try
o well guess I will just have to stick with good old coopers
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZDhh1RLhQdwoS5mn86xRX_E4wmYR0yCAdqZbZb1-_nXynBPcU)
-
Ah come now Badger, this isn't real drift. I mean if you're buying a generator then proper use/installation would be close to topic.
Real drift would be discussing the types of beer best suited to a power outage.
I was thinking some Dogfish Palo Santo Marron would be might tasty even if the fridge went without power for a day.
(http://www.dogfish.com/files/imagecache/bottleGridSize/palo-santo-marron.png)
Trying some of this tonight Alf. Might tasty in a strange malty beverage kind of way!
Kinda pricey too at four bucks a bottle....12% ABV.....
;)