The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Rob10ring on May 05, 2011, 01:07:44 AM
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Does anyone understand why 45 GAP isn't more popular? It seems that a more concealable gun that throws a .45 caliber bullet ought to be more something that people would show more interest in. Not to mention that there are some decent sized state police agencies that have adopted it. How can we help this round succeed and with the difficulty it has had, how did 40 S&W ever get where it is?
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Does anyone understand why 45 GAP isn't more popular? It seems that a more concealable gun that throws a .45 caliber bullet ought to be more something that people would show more interest in. Not to mention that there are some decent sized state police agencies that have adopted it. How can we help this round succeed and with the difficulty it has had, how did 40 S&W ever get where it is?
Seems to me it's like the 10mm or the .41 magnum. Great ideas that don't take off. Here's the thing. Gun manufactures embrace new ammo to boost sales of new guns. However, ammo manufactures are less open to spending lots of money tooling up for new cartridges unless they know they have a market. The result is that lots of good calibers flounder. The old standards flourish unless something is demonstrably better, like the .44 magnum comes out. This is because gun buyers, mindful of ammo cost and availability, are inherently conservative. Its a vicious cycle.
As to the .40? I really can't justify its popularity. Explain it yes, but justify it no. Sometimes an inferior product just wins due to better marketing. Just ask any MAC guy. ;D
FQ13
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I've got a few .40's. I don't think they're inferior, but not superguns. I'm a Mac guy too. In my area, almost all designers are. :)
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As an example of the lack of popularity of the .45GAP, last Friday, for the first time in over a year, I had someone on the pistol range shooting a .45GAP. I've seen Tokarevs, even 5.7s before, but this group was the first with a .45GAP.
I'm also not that aware that all that many police agencies have adopted the .45GAP, but then I haven't done an official survey. Most of the ones I have seen either are still using 9MM or have shifted, like our local PDs to the .40S&W.
Same issue with rifle calibers, like the 6.8REM SPC - interesting, even great rounds begging for market. And so it goes.
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The .45 GAP has the same diameter as the .45 ACP pistol cartridge, but is slightly shorter, and uses a small-pistol primer instead of the large-pistol primer most commonly used in .45 ACP ammunition. Originally, the maximum bullet weight of the .45 GAP was 200 grains (13 g). In order to provide terminal ballistics on par with the standard 230-grain (15 g) .45 ACP loads, the .45 GAP was designed to operate at a higher standard pressure—roughly equivalent to the higher pressures found in .45 ACP "+P" rounds. Since the .45 GAP has a much smaller cartridge volume than the .45 ACP, the desired pressure and resulting velocity needed to be achieved through powder selection alone. Later development concluded that the .45 GAP could in fact fire 230-grain (15 g) ammunition just as the .45 ACP.
[edit] Glock .45 GAP pistols
The full-size Glock 37 pistol was introduced by Glock to use the .45 GAP cartridge and was followed by the compact Glock 38 and the subcompact Glock 39. The width of all three pistols is listed by the manufacturer as 1.18", compared with 1.27" for the .45 ACP Glock 21 and Glock 30, indicating that Glock was able to not only shorten the front to back size of the grip, but also the grip width.
[edit] Law enforcement application
Five state law enforcement agencies have adopted the .45 G.A.P. as a replacement to their current issue 9×19mm Parabellum (New York) or .40 S&W service handguns (Georgia, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Florida). The New York State Police, Georgia State Patrol, Pennsylvania State Police, South Carolina Highway Patrol, and Florida Highway Patrol[2] have all adopted the Glock 37 and .45 G.A.P.
Initially, due to its acceptance by law enforcement and the popularity of subcompact handguns for concealed carry, some manufacturers decided to produce pistols chambered in .45 G.A.P., including some Para-Ordnance M1911s and the Springfield Armory XD. Para has since dropped the G.A.P. from production and Springfield Armory has not had pistols manufactured in the G.A.P. cartridge for the last few years.
With subcompact pistols in .45 ACP I see why it hasn't taken off, first of all it was designed for just the Glock, second why not just shoot .45 ACP in a small pistol ?
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The problem with the Glock 37,38,39 is that they are single stack pistols where the G21 is double stack. Not to hard to make it narrower by removing half the magazine capacity.
I'd have purchased a double stack GAP Glock that would have featured a grip smaller than the 21 while maintaining the same capacity.
I went with the 21SF instead, but would still consider a double stack GAP if it were produced.
The round itself seems capable from what reviews I have read.
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The problem with the Glock 37,38,39 is that they are single stack pistols where the G21 is double stack. Not to hard to make it narrower by removing half the magazine capacity.
I'd have purchased a double stack GAP Glock that would have featured a grip smaller than the 21 while maintaining the same capacity.
I went with the 21SF instead, but would still consider a double stack GAP if it were produced.
The round itself seems capable from what reviews I have read.
I think the choice to stick with 45acp is probably still the good one unless the future of the GAP is strengthened, or you'd just end up with a paperweight. The GAP guns are double stack. They just hold a few less round because they use the same frame as the 9mm and 40s&w guns, while being a fatter cartridge.
@2HOW: The only reason that I'd like to see it make it would be to have a gun the size of a Glock 26 that fires a 45. Glock's ACP guns' grips not only have to be fat, but longer fore to aft to accommodate the longer cartridge. That's not a problem in a single stack 1911, but is when it becomes double stack. The Glock 30 in 45acp is appreciably larger than the G26.
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I think the choice to stick with 45acp is probably still the good one unless the future of the GAP is strengthened, or you'd just end up with a paperweight. The GAP guns are double stack. They just hold a few less round because they use the same frame as the 9mm and 40s&w guns, while being a fatter cartridge.
@2HOW: The only reason that I'd like to see it make it would be to have a gun the size of a Glock 26 that fires a 45. Glock's ACP guns' grips not only have to be fat, but longer fore to aft to accommodate the longer cartridge. That's not a problem in a single stack 1911, but is when it becomes double stack. The Glock 30 in 45acp is appreciably larger than the G26.
Thanks for the correction. I probably made the assumption they were single stack because the standard capacity is the same as the G30.
I was in the market for a .45 ACP with a smaller grip than the G21 or even the G21SF without losing capacity.
Take care.
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The main reason I started shooting .40 was the ballistics were very close to the .45 and was easy to find a hi cap pistol. My sub carry is .40 with 10+1 The old 22 Glock was way too big and thick I still carry my 1911 and do not feel out gunned with the 7+1. I never saw a good reason to develop the GAP round, just marketing I suppose.
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In the current "gun/ammo" environment with a POS anti-gun admin., the demand has shifted to the K.I.S.S method of calibers.
On Nov. 9 2008, after the "Anointed One" was elected, :'( I caved and bought my first 9mm that day. A FNP9 at Bass Pro. Fearing the worst, an internationally available "common round", seemed prudent to acquire. There will always be 9mm out there.
Unless one can reload, and/or stock up, on those 10mm, 45 GAP, .41 Mag, 5.7, even the .357 Sig, a more common caliber will dominate the market.
Even if the ballistics are great, having a caliber that will be one of the first to "go away" or skyrocket in price, seems best for the collector.
It affects range time and is not cost effective to shoot in quantity. Not every range/store/dealer keeps them anymore, and if they do, it costs more.
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During the great ammo shortage, the 2 handgun calibers that are the most universal (9mm, 45acp) were nowhere to be found in Southern California. .357 was hard to find too. All that I could scrounge up was 40S&W and 9x18 Makarov - even at gun shows. The great demand for the more common calibers made them disappear first.
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The only reason I've ever been able to figure out why the 45 gap came around was so glock could put thier name on a round.
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During the great ammo shortage, the 2 handgun calibers that are the most universal (9mm, 45acp) were nowhere to be found in Southern California. .357 was hard to find too. All that I could scrounge up was 40S&W and 9x18 Makarov - even at gun shows. The great demand for the more common calibers made them disappear first.
That is true. Especially the great .380 shortage of 2009. However, sites like ammoengine.com, and others, if your timing was right, and were willing to pay, were available.
That is why if there is any lesson to be learned, is to always keep your stocks up. Regardless of caliber.