The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ksail101 on May 05, 2011, 11:58:39 AM
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I haven't been on here for a while so first let me say hello to everyone and that I am doing good, and sorry but I work retarded hours and just don't have to the time that I used to to be on here.
Now to my question or thought or whatever. I have seen on some other sites people mad at the Navy Seals for supposedly killing unarmed persons. Since we are a group of people who support our rights do you believe what they did was wrong? That it was wrong for them to storm a house kill people with no trial or whatever? I saw people really bashing them for this.
Now anyone who knows me on here knows where I stand on this. Its my belief that if you are living in a compound with Bin Laden and or living in the same building as him you know what you are risking. They had weapons there stashed and ready for a lengthy battle. But do to the superb planning, training, and execution that our Special Forces employed they dominated much like you would hope in this kind of situation, even while or after losing one of there on Helicopters which could have really screwed things up distraction wise. There is no way you could have apprehended this Fugitive peacefully without endangering those trying to arrest him. If you showed up with a blow horn demanding he come out with his hands up I think we all know what would have happened. But all the same people are going off about killing unarmed "civilians" Just cause they don't where a uniform doesn't make them a civilian. And I believe in this case your rights are null and void after knowingly running and never turning yourself in to authorities after claiming responsibility for the murder of thousands of real civilians. You lost your rights at one time you had them and could have stood before a judge I believe but no longer.
My final thought is this. Pakistan and US knew where he was for the last 10 years and if you want to tell me different fine but I wont believe you. He was less than a mile away from thousands of armed troops. And if he hadn't treated Pakistan with the disrespect he has of late, I am saying he but his organization, then I believe we would still not be allowed to touch him. When Pakistan finally learned he is liar and not helping them like he said he would, they sent us to do the dirty work so none of their people would get hurt. The President basically said as much in his speech. Thats another guy who should get 0 (zero) credit for this capture. He did nothing but what he was told to do by his buddies, every other Americans Enemies.
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Um, SOP when entering a building where you are told there are several armed guard/miltary personal. Is kill anyone you think is a potential threat.
You don't go knock on the door and say "will you please come out"
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I have no problem with what the SEALS did or how they did it.
Given the circumstances, I don't see any other way to get the job done and be certain of it. That others died as well, well, as you said, Ksail, the adults were living with OBL, they knew the chances and probably were up to their asses in helping OBL. I understand that both of the couriers that led us to OBL were killed, but I have seen nothing in any reports that they were taken along with OBL to be chum. So the dead guys are probably the couriers.
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You put down mad dogs......and can assume the others in it's pack are mad also.
I can understand why you might not want to broadcast that action, which is, perhaps, why we have some conflicting "spin" on the raid.
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Here's what irritates me about this.
BHo claims that he did the high risk route of sending in SEALs rather than do a Clinton (lob a couple of cruise missiles and call it good) to be absolutely certain that they got him. Now he's saying "You'll just have to trust me, we got him." Well, I, for one, trust a professional politician (specially this one) about as far as I can throw my house. I would expect him to at least provide proof to members of congress. I think it is just another diversionary tactic - like refusing to release his birth certificate for so long (and then claiming it isn't a big deal to him after spending millions to keep it, and other things, out of the public eye).
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I still have a hard time believing that UBL/OBL lived this long. Almost 10 years ago he was in tora bora with failed kidneys and needing dialysis. How does someone live this long w/o proper medical attention. Maybe another reason to not show the long-form death pictures.
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Here's what irritates me about this.
BHo claims that he did the high risk route of sending in SEALs rather than do a Clinton (lob a couple of cruise missiles and call it good) to be absolutely certain that they got him. Now he's saying "You'll just have to trust me, we got him." Well, I, for one, trust a professional politician (specially this one) about as far as I can throw my house. I would expect him to at least provide proof to members of congress. I think it is just another diversionary tactic - like refusing to release his birth certificate for so long (and then claiming it isn't a big deal to him after spending millions to keep it, and other things, out of the public eye).
Ich, the biggest factor leading me to believe this is not a hoax is the involvement of the SEALs.
The members of SEAL team 6 are gonna know if any of their brothers were involved or not.
And if they were not, I don't expect them to keep that secret.
Yeah, the SEALS will keep silent on issues of national security no matter what political or social pressure is brought to bear on them, but I seriously doubt if any of them are going to think making BHO look good is a matter of national security.
Should this be a hoax with the SEALS supporting it, my loss of faith and trust in these heroes would suffer immense damage, while BHO and crew perpetrating a hoax won't lower my respect of them at all.
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To answer the original question, no, I have no problem with it. Pretty much the same way Bonnie & Clyde were brought to justice back in the 30's. Nobody tried to arrest them that morning in Louisiana, either.
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Ich, the biggest factor leading me to believe this is not a hoax is the involvement of the SEALs.
The members of SEAL team 6 are gonna know if any of their brothers were involved or not.
And if they were not, I don't expect them to keep that secret.
Yeah, the SEALS will keep silent on issues of national security no matter what political or social pressure is brought to bear on them, but I seriously doubt if any of them are going to think making BHO look good is a matter of national security.
Should this be a hoax with the SEALS supporting it, my loss of faith and trust in these heroes would suffer immense damage, while BHO and crew perpetrating a hoax won't lower my respect of them at all.
Oh, I'm not claiming it's a hoax. Trust but verify.
I think that the way it is being handled is a concerted effort to cause an uproar to distract us from other things. What that might be I am unsure of. But I do know these guys are practiced at that tactic.
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Ask the people that jumped from the towers .
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Now to my question or thought or whatever. I have seen on some other sites people mad at the Navy Seals for supposedly killing unarmed persons. Since we are a group of people who support our rights do you believe what they did was wrong? That it was wrong for them to storm a house kill people with no trial or whatever? I saw people really bashing them for this.
Kinda like what Al Qaeda did to Nick Berg and how many other UNARMED NON COMBATANTS? Screw what these people think.
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He was vermin. You exterminate vermin. You don't "catch and relocate". As far as I'm concerned they should have killed every single person in that compound. Men, women and children, everyone. That is exactly what would have happened if any of the other options that were on the table were exercised. Be it a Predator Drone attack or a JDAM. There most likely would have been others not in the compound killed from collateral damage, had either of the other 2 options been used. In short, they got off easy and should count their blessings. Especially when you think that in all likelihood the kids that were allowed to live will be tomorrow's terrorists. Bill T.
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Osama Bin Laden was an extremely devout Muslim, and a highly talented terrorist leader.
He was also the enemy of every living American, whether they cared to believe it or not.
His weapons were his faith and his idea's. He could not be rendered "unarmed" while keeping his pulse.
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Osama Bin Laden was an extremely devout Muslim, and a highly talented terrorist leader.
He was also the enemy of every living American, whether they cared to believe it or not.
His weapons were his faith and his idea's. He could not be rendered "unarmed" while keeping his pulse.
Every so often, Tom hits it on the head. This is one of them. 80 years ago Benito Mussolini threw a young communist journalist, Antonio Gramsci, into prison. He was quoted as saying " He's the most dangerous man in Italy. We must stop that brain from working". So of course, Gramsci spent the next few years writing the best revolutionary theory handbook ever written. ::) Mussolini was an idiot. In this case BO (and W. before him) were not. Sometimes, dead is just better.
FQ13
Ps as for the others? They knew they were keeping dangerous company. If they'd left the day before they'd have been fine. They were just a day late and a dollar short. They have no one to blame but their own poor judgement.
PPS Just to amplify. If the guy you're hanging out with has a 25 million dollar reward on his head? You need to find a new friend. Don't come crying to me if you don't and the inevitable happens. ::)
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I'm former combat USN with a some real good buddies who managed to live through SEAL training. I have every confidence that what SEAL Team 6 did was exactly what the circumstances called for.
When you come face-to-face with evil, (and I believe bin Laden was exactly that) it must be assumed that any persons surrounding that evil are also evil. To try and make a field evaluation and adjustment in the middle of a firefight would be foolish.
None of the SEALs I know could ever be catagorized as foolish.
That anyone on the wrong side came out alive is a testiment to the great restraint of my brothers.
I cannot express my level of pride in the USN. Words just don't go that high.
Crusader Rabbit
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I'm former combat USN with a some real good buddies who managed to live through SEAL training. I have every confidence that what SEAL Team 6 did was exactly what the circumstances called for.
When you come face-to-face with evil, (and I believe bin Laden was exactly that) it must be assumed that any persons surrounding that evil are also evil. To try and make a field evaluation and adjustment in the middle of a firefight would be foolish.
None of the SEALs I know could ever be catagorized as foolish.
That anyone on the wrong side came out alive is a testiment to the great restraint of my brothers.
I cannot express my level of pride in the USN. Words just don't go that high.
Crusader Rabbit
I really want to add to this. Being lucky enough to share the company of many Green Berets and being introduced to some SEALS that they knew on a range one day when I was over seas, I will say that the word professional was made to describe these men. It is my belief they employed what ever force was nessesary and none more.
Our country would be in a sore disadvantage to the rest of the world if it was not for men like these. They are not Mercs trying to make a buck. Hell half of them struggle to make the car payment, Unless you are E-7 or better, and most live in Apartments never even owning their own houses. But yet the fly around the world doing the worst jobs, and loving it, and then get to come home and read what I read earlier bashing them as being barbarians. (And me ranting on here about those poeple.)
Bin Laden had 10 years to walk into any Federal facility or camp with his hands up saying I want a trial but never did. If anything he took on a Messiah like complex and hurt more people. And I also agree some proof would be nice, not cause I dont believe the men on the ground, I just haven't met any yet lol, and our president likes to throw shinny objects in the water to make all the fish look in one direction while he is droping a stick of dynomite behind them.
I am modifing what I wrote a min ago after thinking a bit more its not so much I want proof, what I really want is the Truth. How long have we known what is going on with him. And also whats the bad news. Is our stock market going to crash. Gas going up to 4.50 per gal. Our dollar is going to worthless what is it. Cause never does good news come with out something horrible right after with this president but the horrible is over shadowed.
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OBL was an enemy of the U.S., we had every right to go and waste him where ever he was holed up. Some say it was assasination, I say it was justice! He had it coming. Screw the libs & all the bleeding hearts that don't want to hurt anybody bastards. I want to see his pic to be sure, we saw beheadings on tv, we saw So-dam-insane get strung up, WTF?
Our so called President that apolligizes to everyone is being too P/C about the pics of OBL, especially when he followed islamic protocol for burial by washing that POS's body (sopposidly) before burial. Obama & many others are more worried about being P/C than they are of dying, being P/C is killing our Nation!
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Is our stock market going to crash. Gas going up to 4.50 per gal. Our dollar is going to worthless
Yes. It's just a matter of time before the world calls BS on the worthless $, With Diesal over $4 a gallon transport costs will push fuel higher, which means it will cost more to transport it. It will get to the point where people who have jobs will not be able to afford the gas to get to them.
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Question. How many Vietnam vets does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer. I don't know.
Comment. You don't know man, cuz you weren't there!
Question. How many of us were involved in the op?
Answer. None of us.
Comment. We have no idea how it went down, and none of us have any grounds for criticizing the team. Eventually the facts will work their way out into the daylight. Until then, let's just enjoy the moment.
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We already know exactly what happened,
They found him, they killed him, and they chucked him in the ocean.
The rest is just details, that will come out in 10, 20, or 50 years when the books get written.
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Our dollar is going to worthless what is it.
I keep hearing this, but it seems to buy more of everything I look at. Guns, ammo, big screen TV's. Houses just keep getting cheaper by the day. Sales on new cars the likes of which I haven't seen in years. Money has never been cheaper. I just got a brand new cell phone for $10.00 a month. Yet everywhere I go people keep harping about the $6.00 loaf of bread, and the $12.00 a dozen eggs that "are coming". So is the asteroid, but when?
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I keep hearing this, but it seems to buy more of everything I look at. Guns, ammo, big screen TV's. Houses just keep getting cheaper by the day. Sales on new cars the likes of which I haven't seen in years. Money has never been cheaper. I just got a brand new cell phone for $10.00 a month. Yet everywhere I go people keep harping about the $6.00 loaf of bread, and the $12.00 a dozen eggs that "are coming". So is the asteroid, but when?
When the bills come due from the mass transfer of wealth over the past few years. After the 2012 election I believe, but possibly the summer of 2012 so bho can announce that he needs to stay another term to fix the "problem" (that he, kongress, and W caused)
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Billt is the same guy who called me foolish and said that the lame duck Congress would never push through unpopular bills.
Prices he mentioned going down don't really matter, (they are being reduced to spur lagging sales ) the things that matter are Fuel, and food. And if he sees THOSE prices dropping I want to know what planet he's on.
Before he goes spouting about asteroids he should read about the economic disasters that occurred in Wiemar, Argentina, Japan, and Zimbabwe.
The things Obama has pushed through are exactly the wrong path to recovery, they have been proven repeatedly to only make things worse.
And for Path, before you start sounding like FQ you need to remember, W had a DEM congress, and all spending such as bailouts originate with congress, just like the one that helped BO double or triple the national debt in his fist month in office.
I'm really getting sick of ignorant uninformed fools chanting the socialist propaganda "It's W's fault" BS, do the research, the housing crash was set in motion by racially motivated legislation passed by the CLINTON administration based on lies by Maxine (slapacop ) Waters and Barney (the butt pirate) Frank.
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Tom, I included W (last in the list I might add) because he signed the bill when he could have vetoed it. He also - unrelated to finance - said he would sign another AWB if it came to his desk. I'm still PO'd over that one. He also signed the vile and obnoxious McCain-Feingold bill.
I could have listed all of the Presidents since Eisenhower, as I still believe that every damn one of them has been co-opted and know well the lesson of JFK - we can get to you and get away with it. Yeah, the fix has been in a looooong time, and we are just that screwed in this country. And it happened on our watch. >:(
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Tom, I included W (last in the list I might add) because he signed the bill when he could have vetoed it. He also - unrelated to finance - said he would sign another AWB if it came to his desk. I'm still PO'd over that one. He also signed the vile and obnoxious McCain-Feingold bill.
I could have listed all of the Presidents since Eisenhower, TR at least, probably earlier as I still believe that every damn one of them has been co-opted and know well the lesson of JFK - we can get to you and get away with it. Yeah, the fix has been in a looooong time, and we are just that screwed in this country. And it happened on our watch. >:(
FIFY