The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: philw on May 08, 2011, 08:46:01 PM
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Florida Bill Could Muzzle Doctors On Gun Safety
Weekend Edition Saturday
[4 min 12 sec]
May 7, 2011
Florida Gov. Rick Scott is expected to sign a bill that will make the state the first in the nation to prohibit doctors from asking patients if they own guns. The bill is aimed particularly at pediatricians, who routinely ask new parents if they have guns at home and if they're stored safely.
Pediatricians say it's about preventing accidental injuries. Gun rights advocates say the doctors have a political agenda.
We take our children to pediatricians for medical care — not moral judgment, not privacy intrusions.
- Marion Hammer, NRA lobbyist
An Invasion Of Privacy?
As parents know, pediatricians ask a lot of questions. Dr. Louis St. Petery says it's all part of what doctors call "anticipatory guidance" — teaching parents how to safeguard against accidental injuries. Pediatricians ask about bike helmets, seat belts and other concerns.
"If you have a pool, let's talk about pool safety so we don't have accidental drownings," he says. "And if you have firearms, let's talk about gun safety so that they're stored properly — you know, the gun needs to be locked up, the ammunition stored separate from the gun, etc., so that children don't have access to them."
For decades, the American Academy of Pediatrics has encouraged its members to ask questions about guns and how they're stored, as part of well-child visits.
But Marion Hammer, the National Rifle Association's lobbyist in Tallahassee, says that's not a pediatrician's job.
"We take our children to pediatricians for medical care — not moral judgment, not privacy intrusions," she says.
NRA lobbyists helped write a bill that largely bans health professionals from asking about guns. Hammer says she and other NRA members consider the questions an intrusion on their Second Amendment rights.
"This bill is about helping families who are complaining about being questioned about gun ownership, and the growing anti-gun political agenda being carried out in examination rooms by doctors and staffs," Hammer says.
It's not just questions in the examining room that lead the NRA to charge pediatricians with a political agenda. Out of concern for the high number of firearms injuries among children and adolescents, the American Academy of Pediatrics is also on record supporting gun control.
'More Children [Will Be] Injured And Killed'
In a compromise with another doctors' group, the Florida Medical Association, the NRA agreed to one exception to the ban: Doctors would be permitted to ask questions about guns in cases where they feel it's directly relevant to the patient's care or the safety of others.
Dr. Paul Robinson, a specialist in adolescent medicine, told a Florida Senate committee recently that that would allow doctors to counsel suicidal teens. But there are other cases, he said, where the law — and the doctor's options — are less clear.
What if I have an adolescent who's been bullied, who's not suicidal? I don't think, under the current bill, I'm entitled to ask him if there's a gun in the home, or if he's carried a gun to school, or if he's thinking of harming someone else with a gun.
- Dr. Paul Robinson
"What if I have an adolescent who's been bullied, who's not suicidal?" he said. "I don't think, under the current bill, I'm entitled to ask him if there's a gun in the home, or if he's carried a gun to school, or if he's thinking of harming someone else with a gun."
Few of those who voted in favor of the bill spoke out, either in committee or on the floor. One who did was state Sen. Alan Hays, a retired dentist from Central Florida.
"It's none of my business what kind of weapons, if any weapons, you have in your home," he said. "When you come to see me, or you bring one of your children to see me, my obligation is to find out what medical things are pertinent to your particular situation."
Ultimately, both Florida's Senate and House agreed with the NRA and voted to approve the bill. For supporters of gun rights, it's another victory — one that St. Petery says will negatively affect pediatricians and their patients.
"Many pediatricians will think twice about asking about firearms and discussing firearms safety," he says. "What I think is going to happen is there'll be more children injured and killed from firearms in the home that are not properly stored."
Although Florida's Legislature is the first to approve the measure, it's also being considered in other states, including North Carolina and Alabama.
http://www.npr.org/2011/05/07/136063523/florida-bill-could-muzzle-doctors-on-gun-safety
also more on it with some extra info on the changes that were made
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2011/mar/14/marion-hammer/gun-lobbyist-says-doctors-play-politics-gun-questi/
ok Florida or Texas looks like good places to live if I ever get sick of Aust.... as long as I can get Coopers Beer and Farmers Union Ice Coffee.. and convince the Mrs.
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Its only good if you don't like free speech and/or like the government messing around with doctor patient relationships. Newsflash to the NRA, if your doctor asks you a question, you don't have to answer it. ::) If there were some sort of law requiring doctors to ask the questions or patients to answer them, I'd say we need this bill passed, as we needed one in the case of adoption screenings. As it is, I see it as big brother telling my doc what she can and cannot ask me to suit a political agenda. Even if I agree with the agenda, I don't welcome this kind of "help". If I think the doctor is nosy or has an agenda, I can always find another doc. I don't need the government doing this for me.
FQ13
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Newsflash to FQ. The AMA needs to keep their nose out of my non-health business. Drs have refused patients that would not answer that question!
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Newsflash to FQ. The AMA needs to keep their nose out of my non-health business. Drs have refused patients that would not answer that question!
Haz, you know we don't need to argue over 2A stuff. My point is that I don't want the government getting in between doctors and patients and dictating what can and can't be asked (or left unanswered). It should be my call, not Tallahassee's as to what goes on in the doc's office. And to be honest, if your doctor is an anti and want's to tell you to get rid of your bayonets because your kid has an unhealthy obsession with sharp objects and dangerous game ( ;D) that's their right. Fire them if you don't like it, but don't make it a crime.
FQ13
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Standing with FQ on this.
The government shouldn't be telling doctors (or anyone) what they should or shouldn't be asking clients. Let the clients decide if they wish to answer questions or if they want to see another provider.
Would be nice to find a Dr. who owns firearms and is into shooting and reloading. Pass some time comparing notes.
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Haz, you know we don't need to argue over 2A stuff. My point is that I don't want the government getting in between doctors and patients and dictating what can and can't be asked (or left unanswered). It should be my call, not Tallahassee's as to what goes on in the doc's office. And to be honest, if your doctor is an anti and want's to tell you to get rid of your bayonets because your kid has an unhealthy obsession with sharp objects and dangerous game ( ;D) that's their right. Fire them if you don't like it, but don't make it a crime.
FQ13
And if the Dr refuses you on the bases that you are a gun owner? Is that OK? (it has happened)
So easiest 'remedy' is to say Drs can't ask about guns. Then no harm, no foul on either party.
I personally don't have a problem with a Dr asking an HONEST question about guns when you have kids and seeing if you have 'thought about it' (safe store, education, etc). BUT the reason MOST are asking is because the AMA is against guns and are trying to make them a health issue (back door gun control). SO ..... DR keep yer damn nose out of my personal business!
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And if the Dr refuses you on the bases that you are a gun owner? Is that OK? (it has happened)
So easiest 'remedy' is to say Drs can't ask about guns. Then no harm, no foul on either party.
I personally don't have a problem with a Dr asking an HONEST question about guns when you have kids and seeing if you have 'thought about it' (safe store, education, etc). BUT the reason MOST are asking is because the AMA is against guns and are trying to make them a health issue (back door gun control). SO ..... DR keep yer damn nose out of my personal business!
Yeah Haz, it IS ok if the doc asks you about guns or anything else. As long as he's not working for the government (where as he's taking tax payer money and has to take all comers). If a private doctor doesn't want to treat you for what ever reason it should be their right. Just like it should be your right to take your business elsewhere if he's a nosy SOB. Its not something the government should be involved with. As you just said "DR keep your damn nose out of my business". If you can say it me, you can say it to her and there is no need for a law.
FQ13
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Standing with FQ on this.
The government shouldn't be telling doctors (or anyone) what they should or shouldn't be asking clients. Let the clients decide if they wish to answer questions or if they want to see another provider.
Would be nice to find a Dr. who owns firearms and is into shooting and reloading. Pass some time comparing notes.
I'm lucky to have that. My ortho surgeon is an avid shooter and hunter.
*(And as a side note, his son is also the freshman US Congressman from my district, so I can pester him about the goings-on with bills from time to time).
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Yeah Haz, it IS ok if the doc asks you about guns or anything else. As long as he's not working for the government (where as he's taking tax payer money and has to take all comers). If a private doctor doesn't want to treat you for what ever reason it should be their right. Just like it should be your right to take your business elsewhere if he's a nosy SOB. Its not something the government should be involved with. As you just said "DR keep your damn nose out of my business". If you can say it me, you can say it to her and there is no need for a law.
FQ13
No, it is not alright. I go to a doctor for medical stuff, not for him to ask none-of-his-damn-business nosy questions because some azzholes in Chicago (home to the AMA BTW) tell him/her s/he has to. Can he also ask you about your gold or silver stores? Can he also ask personal questions about your spouse? For the record, I don't want my car mechanic asking about stuff like this either.
If a private doctor doesn't want to treat you for what ever reason it should be their right. - so according to you, a doctor can also refuse to treat blacks, or women, or Hispanics or gays? We've been through this with TAB and you before - doctors are publicly licensed providers, state-sanctioned and all that. As such, they do not have rights. The individual does, but the state-sanctioned corporate entity does not.
As a result, no, doctors cannot discriminate. If you hadn't spent so much time in the libtard indoctrination centers, you might begin to understand these things. Go to a neurosurgeon for a heart problem, yeah, they can toss you to another specialist. But not for the reasons you seem to think are OK.
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No, it is not alright. I go to a doctor for medical stuff, not for him to ask none-of-his-damn-business nosy questions because some azzholes in Chicago (home to the AMA BTW) tell him/her s/he has to. Can he also ask you about your gold or silver stores? Can he also ask personal questions about your spouse? For the record, I don't want my car mechanic asking about stuff like this either.
If a private doctor doesn't want to treat you for what ever reason it should be their right. - so according to you, a doctor can also refuse to treat blacks, or women, or Hispanics or gays? We've been through this with TAB and you before - doctors are publicly licensed providers, state-sanctioned and all that. As such, they do not have rights. The individual does, but the state-sanctioned corporate entity does not.
As a result, no, doctors cannot discriminate. If you hadn't spent so much time in the libtard indoctrination centers, you might begin to understand these things. Go to a neurosurgeon for a heart problem, yeah, they can toss you to another specialist. But not for the reasons you seem to think are OK.
Path
You are standing up a strawman and you know it. Race, gender, religion and in some (not all) states, sexual preference are protected classes. Those you cannot discriminate against. Likewise, there are generally exigent circumstance rules that forbid providers from denying urgent care and the like. Beyond that though, docs are free to say no. If they don't like Masons, left handers or republicans they can choose not to do business with you. You can do the same. You seem to fail to address my argument. I'm not saying they SHOULD ask you about guns. I am merely saying that there should NOT be a law that tells what they can (or must) ask. Your life, your body, your choice. Big brother has no place here. If the Doc is a PITA, go elsewhere, there is a whole yellow pages full of them. Just don't expect the nanny state to write the script for your doctor's consultation. And you call me a "faux libertarian". ::)
FQ13
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A private doctor, taking patients due to what health plans they may belong too, does so by contract. If he/she refused me because of a biased decision on a subject that is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, then there will be a problem. I would contact my provider and explain the situation immediately and ask that I be allowed to see a physician outside my plan network. That would prompt some sort of action, I hope!
A doctor needs to know nothing of my personal business buy my health issue and any family background that may be germane to the treatment he may prescribe.
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A private doctor, taking patients due to what health plans they may belong too, does so by contract. If he/she refused me because of a biased decision on a subject that is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS, then there will be a problem. I would contact my provider and explain the situation immediately and ask that I be allowed to see a physician outside my plan network. That would prompt some sort of action, I hope!
A doctor needs to know nothing of my personal business buy my health issue and any family background that may be germane to the treatment he may prescribe.
Agreed. The germain question is this. Should the government set up a list of prescribed and proscribed questions?
FQ13 who thinks the answer is no.
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We've all heard of cases where doctors feel that THEY know better than the patient, or parent, or guardian and use the courts to make judgements in their favor to remove patients or families rights in extreme cases. IMO, doctors are the last people I want looking after my best interests. I've lost respect for most, if not all after what's happened to me.
Leave me alone, leave my family alone and ask only what necessary to provide me with the care I need, PERIOD!
More laws mean nothing if they're ignored by those that they're meant to control....
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And you call me a "faux libertarian".
Because you continually demonstrate what you are.
Path
You are standing up a strawman and you know it. Race, gender, religion and in some (not all) states, sexual preference are protected classes. Those you cannot discriminate against. Likewise, there are generally exigent circumstance rules that forbid providers from denying urgent care and the like. Beyond that though, docs are free to say no. If they don't like Masons, left handers or republicans they can choose not to do business with you. You can do the same. You seem to fail to address my argument. I'm not saying they SHOULD ask you about guns. I am merely saying that there should NOT be a law that tells what they can (or must) ask. Your life, your body, your choice. Big brother has no place here. If the Doc is a PITA, go elsewhere, there is a whole yellow pages full of them. Just don't expect the nanny state to write the script for your doctor's consultation. And you call me a "faux libertarian". ::)
FQ13
Nope, not a strawman at all. They are "protected" because a law was passed protecting them. The US Constitution (which is supposed to supersede all US laws), and the ND Constitution (ditto within the state), both provide for the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. The doctor has no right to be asking about non-medical activities.
And you missed the part about this is a politically motivated action promulgated by the leftoids who have taken over the AMA and the pediatrician's so-called "professional" groups. So I am perfectly OK with FL passing a law saying in essence that doctors should stick to what they purport to know about medicine, and keep the hell out of other subjects. It just ain't the doctor's business. That is true libertarianism - stay the hell out of my personal business.
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Correction. True Libertarianism is telling a doctor to mind his own business yourself. Faux Libertarianism is expecting the government to pass a law so you won't have to take the responsibility yourself.
FQ13
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Correction. True Libertarianism is telling a doctor to mind his own business yourself. Faux Libertarianism is expecting the government to pass a law so you won't have to take the responsibility yourself.
FQ13
That misses the point. That if the AMA wasn't pushing their own political agenda on their patients, we wouldn't need the legislature to intervene. Sorry FQ but owning a gun doesn't have ANY effect on my health, and is none of my doctors business. It would be no different than if he was refusing to treat me because I owned a speedboat.
You are trying to make the argument that this is about personal responsibility. That is where you are wrong. What you have is a situation where, someone is denying service to you based on your ownership of a product that they disagree with. AND have no reason to even be asking about.
You seem to think that it is easy to just go find another doctor. Have you tried it? With insurances being so picky as to who they will pay, and doctors being even worse about what insurances they will accept, it's not like just going across the street to a different grocery store. Add to that the fact there already are too few doctors to go around. Especially is smaller communities.
Sorry but this isn't an argument about personal responsibility, this is about invasion of privacy.
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That misses the point. That if the AMA wasn't pushing their own political agenda on their patients, we wouldn't need the legislature to intervene. Sorry FQ but owning a gun doesn't have ANY effect on my health, and is none of my doctors business. It would be no different than if he was refusing to treat me because I owned a speedboat.
You are trying to make the argument that this is about personal responsibility. That is where you are wrong. What you have is a situation where, someone is denying service to you based on your ownership of a product that they disagree with. AND have no reason to even be asking about.
You seem to think that it is easy to just go find another doctor. Have you tried it? With insurances being so picky as to who they will pay, and doctors being even worse about what insurances they will accept, it's not like just going across the street to a different grocery store. Add to that the fact there already are too few doctors to go around. Especially is smaller communities.
Sorry but this isn't an argument about personal responsibility, this is about invasion of privacy.
You are under no obligation to tell the Dr. anything you don't want to. Simply don't answer and there is no invasion.
If the check out person at your local grocery asked you if you were a gun owner, you would tell them to mind their own business if you chose not to tell them. You might also speak to the store manager about it, and if their answer was unsatisfactory, you would consider doing business someplace else.
I hope you wouldn't push for a law making it illegal for check out personal (or any other individual) to ask you about this subject.
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You are under no obligation to tell the Dr. anything you don't want to. Simply don't answer and there is no invasion.
If the check out person at your local grocery asked you if you were a gun owner, you would tell them to mind their own business if you chose not to tell them. You might also speak to the store manager about it, and if their answer was unsatisfactory, you would consider doing business someplace else.
I hope you wouldn't push for a law making it illegal for check out personal (or any other individual) to ask you about this subject.
Last I checked no answer usually IS an answer.
The problem with that is that we are not talking about groceries that I can get at any of 20 different places. We are talking about being denied medical care based on the fact that the doctor doesn't agree with my decision to own firearms. It's no different than the fight we had a few years ago when pharmacists were denying medications to people based on their religious beliefs.
I don't see the need for legislation. This should be a common sense issue. But what these doctors are doing here is total B.S. And while I usually support doctors when it comes to litigation, this is one thing that would make me consider bringing suit. This is purely politically motivated.
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Doctors have no right to ask about you and guns unless you shot yourself in the leg or he's your ear doctor wondering if you shoot without hearing protection (seems legit to me).
That being said, I'm not sure there should be a specific law either.
Yall keep acting like there are only two answers to the doctor's question: Yes or go find another doctor. It doesn't affect your health so say NO. It isn't that hard. I normally wouldn't advise lying especially to your doctor, but, why not in this case.
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Doctors have no right to ask about you and guns unless you shot yourself in the leg or he's your ear doctor wondering if you shoot without hearing protection (seems legit to me).
That being said, I'm not sure there should be a specific law either.
Yall keep acting like there are only two answers to the doctor's question: Yes or go find another doctor. It doesn't affect your health so say NO. It isn't that hard. I normally wouldn't advise lying especially to your doctor, but, why not in this case.
I fully agree with that reasoning behind questioning your use of guns. My point is that asking if you own guns as part of a political agenda, and then refusing treatment if you do not agree with their liberal doctrine SHOULD be considered discrimination on the same grounds as sexual orientation or race. The problem is that liberals cannot understand common sense and live and let live situations. The only thing that gets the point across to them that this is unacceptable is litigation, or legislation. I don't want to see them have to make a law about this, but that's the only was they will understand that we are serious about it.
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like amny things in life, its not the what that is the prob its the how.
having your kids doctor bringing up potental risks in the home of which things like chemicals, plants, sharp objects, eletrical outlets and yes even guns, is them being a good doctor. Using it for a political agenda or for other purposes is not.
Just as a FYI, if all you see is the evils of a object, it does not take long for one to see that object as evil. It does not matter what that object is.