The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Paraguy on May 17, 2011, 03:55:45 PM
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Here is a link to a posting of someone who was open carrying (legally) in Philadelphia and recorded the discussion he had with the police who stopped him for open carrying. Be warned, the language is not appropriate for work or around children, but the expletives were not from the citizen. I have a lot of respect for police, but it appears that this was not the right way for the officer to handle the situation. Locally, the commissioner stated that the language used was not acceptable.
TBD presented the best way and some not so "best" ways to handle interactions with Law Enforcement when carrying a firearm. This is a real world scenario that presents some interesting topics for discussion, it would be interesting to hear people's opinions and observations of this event.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
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M'lette has it right. Here's the thing, you are never going to win arguing with the cops, and if there are guns involved its bone stupid to try. If they feel threatened they will shoot you and walk away.If you feel threatened and shoot, you're looking at the needle. Comply and let the lawyers hash it out. Its cold comfort being right and dead.
FQ13
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More on this story:
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/Open-Carry-Experiment-Shows-Cops-Dont-Know-Their-Own-Gun-Laws-121989564.html
http://nation.foxnews.com/justice/2011/05/17/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun-warning-explicit-lan
http://biggovernment.com/jlott/2011/05/17/why-it-can-be-valuable-to-carry-a-gun-and-a-recorder/
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/columnists/121973154.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Has-Exposed-Gun-in-Phila-Charged-121932474.html
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I listened to all 3 parts.
The guy was generally polite, but he probably should have been a bit more cooperative, ie got on the ground when told. Even though he was legal, when a cop has his gun pointed at you, it is not time to negotiate and make a stand (in my opinion). The cops were a bit overly aggressive, especially the first guy and whoever was the first of his backup. :o
I can almost understand one cop not knowing that open carry was legal (maybe he missed the memo), but the 7 or 8 it sounded like were present and everybody on the radio. Someone should have been able to say very quickly that it's legal for the guy to open carry; he even gave them the directive number. There was no reason it should have taken that long and still, although letting him walk free with his gun, be unclear.
I prefer concealed (no need for anyone else to know it's there) but think open should be allowed. For those that choose to do so, certain times, and when the gun is accidentally revealed, it's nice to know it's alright.
On a side note, I think the guy was looking for something like this to happen. He was already prepared with the tape recorder and knew what was required to file an internal affairs report. I don't think the average IT (his job) or most any other person would know how to do that without prior planning.
Ultimately, he was in the right but better thank God every night he's not dead.
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Seriously??A "bit more cooperative"?? How could he have been a bit more cooperative when he had a cop that was so scared all he could do was scream and cuss.. ? He couldn't get a word in edge wise.. ::)
I'd STILL sue their ignorant dumb asses til they were shittin' out of tin cans for the rest of their days. >:( >:(
God, I hate idiot power hungry tin badge wanna be's.!!/b]
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FYI:
"Several weeks after the altercation, after it was posted on YouTube, Commissioner Charles Ramsey had detectives look into the case, Evers said. On April 21, Evers said, Fiorino was arrested on charges of disorderly conduct and recklessly endangering another person."
Source: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Has-Exposed-Gun-in-Phila-Charged-121932474.html
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Here's another article/summary:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/05/16/just-do-whatever-the-police-say/
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Seriously??A "bit more cooperative"?? How could he have been a bit more cooperative when he had a cop that was so scared all he could do was scream and cuss.. ? He couldn't get a word in edge wise.. ::)
I'd STILL sue their ignorant dumb asses til they were shittin' out of tin cans for the rest of their days. >:( >:(
God, I hate idiot power hungry tin badge wanna be's.!!/b]
I'm not defending the cop at all, but the guy did not do exactly what he was told. And, it really didn't get too rowdy and cuss filled until backup arrived. The guy was very polite, but he did not get on the ground the first time he was asked. The cop was not willing to listen and, like you said, was too scared with a gun drawn to be reasonably dealt with. They guy should have fully complied (we don't have video so the finer things are unknown) showing his hands and getting on the ground. Once the cop feels safer and puts his gun away, the guy could have started fighting his case. If it still ended up the same, proceed with necessary legal matters as necessary.
No matter how right you are, a scared cop with his gun drawn is not someone with whom to debate.
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FYI:
"Several weeks after the altercation, after it was posted on YouTube, Commissioner Charles Ramsey had detectives look into the case, Evers said. On April 21, Evers said, Fiorino was arrested on charges of disorderly conduct and recklessly endangering another person."
Source: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Has-Exposed-Gun-in-Phila-Charged-121932474.html
Since it was the cop that "recklessly endangered" another person why wasn't HE arrested.
Oh, I forgot....he's a cop - he can do anything he feels like. (including not following his own departments directives or PA law)
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No matter how right you are, a scared cop with his gun drawn is not someone with whom to debate.
That is very true... and you are right as rain on that.. It just makes me soooooo mad!!!!
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This sort of idiocy always worries me for some very personal reasons. My knees are adaquate to the task of walking around, climbing stairs, and the general needs of life. But, if I had to "drop to my knees," about half way down, they would stop providing any support. I would fall/lunge to my knees, and my knees would suffer significant additional damage from striking the pavement/sidewalk with my full body mass behind them.
The a--hole cop would (in my opinion) be unlikely to listen to my story and then allow me to support myself on the car, or parking meter, or the like while I assumed the kneeling position. It's more likely I would be shot for my "attacking" the cop.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for citizens. It should not be an excuse for LEOs, either. I hope "our guy" wins a large judgement.
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Poor job by LEO, poor training by the department and very poor job on adding the charges.
Philly appears to be trying to discourage open carry in the city. It was never a gun friendly city.
I am surprised that folks did not get the same treatment in Pittsburgh at the NRA convention. I guess the word went out to all officers what the law was before the event.
I have to agree that arguing with an angry poorly trained man pointing a gun at you is never a wise move.
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Pretty clear early on, once the guy enumerated the enabling directive, that the officer was going to buffalo himself through to hide ignorance. Plain as day.
If someone points a gun at you or presents some other lethal threat not according to the law, ignorance of the law not being an excuse for citizens, why is self-defense from citizen towards an officer nearly always a losing situation for the citizen who would be within their rights shooting another citizen?
Isn't right according to the law right, regardless? Justice is blind, right?
I'm just saying........double standard, we all know how it goes down in court.
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And now it looks like Open Carry will be met with Open Harrassment.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/)
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I'll never understand their thinking.
The officer even asked the man why he wasn't carrying concealed....as if not being able to see the very same weapon somehow would make the officer feel safer. Talk about an Ostrich Syndrome.
I guess they think that if a bad guy isn't allowed to carry concealed, they will just have to go with open carry and thus anyone carrying openly must be a bad guy who is not allowed to conceal?
Pardon me, sir, but could you conceal that bomb under your coat? It makes me very uneasy to see you carrying it around in your hands like that. Thank you so much.
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The irony of this is that a lot of early gun control laws were aimed at concealed carry. Open carry was one thing, carrying concealed implied you were up to something and couldn't be trusted. Laws change, stupid remains. ::)
FQ13
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Just an update (I am in the Philly area) the Commissioner said the police force has been educated on the law. He also said just because it is legal does not mean that he thinks it is the best idea. He said people who open carry will be checked and if their license is from out of state (which some states have reciprocity) it may take some time to verify. In other words, if you have a CCW from FL and you are stopped for a license check in Philly while carrying openly it may take a day or more to verify your license.
It will be interesting to see if they exercise their right to hold you until it is verified or if they confiscate your firearm until it is verified. May open an interesting can of worms if the police try to make a point with a citizen who is equally interested in making a point. Not a lawyer so not sure how it would play out if someone who was doing everything according to the law loses their freedom for 24 hours or their gun during a lengthy verification process. Thoughts, experiences or insights?
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Just an update (I am in the Philly area) the Commissioner said the police force has been educated on the law. He also said just because it is legal does not mean that he thinks it is the best idea. He said people who open carry will be checked and if their license is from out of state (which some states have reciprocity) it may take some time to verify. In other words, if you have a CCW from FL and you are stopped for a license check in Philly while carrying openly it may take a day or more to verify your license.
It will be interesting to see if they exercise their right to hold you until it is verified or if they confiscate your firearm until it is verified. May open an interesting can of worms if the police try to make a point with a citizen who is equally interested in making a point. Not a lawyer so not sure how it would play out if someone who was doing everything according to the law loses their freedom for 24 hours or their gun during a lengthy verification process. Thoughts, experiences or insights?
Ask Rosa Parks or the freedom riders. The cops will do what they want to. Its up to you to decide what its worth to make the point. At the very least they can cost you time and money and stick you in a cell for awhile and return your weapon "in a reasonable time ::)". Until a judge or chief says otherwise, its a case of you being guilty of "contempt of cop". Now, if I lived in Philly, I'd suggest organizing. Get a group together. This would mean training for the guys who open carry so they know how not to provoke the cops or violate another law. It would mean lawyers who would represent them pro bono. It means PR folks who get the message out to the media. It means doing the legwork to get folks who aren't willing to risk arrest to sign up to write letters and picket. With this sort of organization (Hello, NRA?), you can do something. Otherwise, you're not going to accomplish much. The Civil Rights movement planned things out ahead of time and moved on schedule, they didn't just wing it. Its a good lesson. As for me who might just visit Philly (if I have no other choice), my gun will stay in the IWB.
FQ13
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Update - things should get interesting following this incident.....
The short version, a guy legally carrying a gun found himself in the middle of a domestic disturbance and gets shot by the Cops. As usual, there is the cops version, the familes version and the truth.
DANIELLE CRAWLEY'S family desperately wanted her to leave her boyfriend's house to get away from what they say is a history of domestic violence.
Yesterday, after the latest alleged beating, her mother, Rose, drove to the house in her school district bus and had Danielle load up her belongings.
Rose Crawley also called her son, Eric, 38, a SEPTA bus driver and father of four, to come to the house on Rugby Street near Phil Ellena in the city's Stenton section.
He sped over in his white Cadillac with a gun that he legally owned and that he normally carried on his hip. Moments after he arrived, he was shot dead by a Philadelphia police officer.
Family members and friends charged that Crawley had been unjustly shot and killed, but police yesterday contended that he had raised his gun despite an officer's command to keep it holstered.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey, who visited the shooting scene, said a 14th District police officer had told Crawley "to put his hand on the car, but instead he" pulled out the gun. The gun was found near the left-front wheel of the Cadillac, Ramsey said.
Crawley's mother and sister hovered near his body, screaming, neighbors said.
"'You didn't have to shoot him!' " neighbor Gladys Worthy, 82, said Danielle had screamed as Rose wailed, " 'That's my son!' "
Lt. Raymond Evers, a police spokesman, said police were first called to the house at 10:05 a.m. because of a domestic disturbance between the sister and her boyfriend. Two officers, a man and a woman, responded to the call and the "disturbance was taken care of" before the Cadillac pulled up, Evers said.
The male officer, whom police did not identify, believed that Crawley was raising the gun toward him, so he shot Crawley once in the chest, Evers said. Crawley was pronounced dead at 10:32 a.m. at Albert Einstein Medical Center.
Dynita Crawley, 39, who is married to Eric's older brother, Darryle, a SEPTA supervisor, gave a different account of the shooting based on what she heard from Rose, who witnessed the shooting.
"My mother-in-law said nobody asked him" to do anything with his gun, Dynita said. "His weapon was not drawn."
Eric's "hand was never near his gun," Dynita said Rose had told her.
Eric Crawley had gotten his gun for protection when he previously owned a barbershop in Roxborough, Dynita said.
Crawley's fiancée, Lisa Hobbs, 28, added that he normally carried his gun because of expensive equipment he transported for his side business, 12/19 Vizions, a film-and-video production company.
While Crawley's family contended that Danielle's boyfriend had a history of beating her, the boyfriend's mother contended yesterday that her son never beat Danielle. The couple lived with his parents on Rugby Street.
Crawley lived on Forrest Avenue near Mount Pleasant, in Cedarbrook - about half a mile from where he was killed - with Hobbs, their 21-month-old son, Ryan, and her two other children, a boy, 6, and a girl, 7, whom Crawley was raising as his own.
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Lord, they'll have to spray for lawyers before this thing is done. I wonder if we'll get to see Al Sharpton and Wayne Lapierre at the same press conference demanding justice? ;D
FQ13