The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: oteroman on June 12, 2011, 06:03:37 PM
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http://www.karllippard.com/military/
1911A2 Combat NCO-The world’s only 400-yard open sight accurate production pistol
At an open house at Ben Lamond Gun Club yesterday and I met and shot one of his pistols.
He was firing at a gong 600 yrds. away in brisk wind. He got my interest right away.
I thought some might be interested in his pistol (steep $$). He does accuracy upgrades on existing 1911's.
He has some interest statements about what his mods are and type of steel, what causes wear.
I am a old newbie...
Oteroman
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I think I'll have to pass on that one...
A standard pistol of any make has a "Defensive" range of 12 feet to 20 yards. In contrast, A Combat NCO™ is an "Offensive" pistol and is effective from 2 feet to 400 yards. This difference in a combat setting means the battlefield is pushed back; that men survive; that we at last have a superior offensive pistol.
Huh?? ::)
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I mean that's very neat and all, but I'd hardly call it a "Production" pistol.
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Would be a very handy weapon to carry IWB if your mugger came at you from the far end of a football field.
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Any body do the math on on bullet energy of a 45ACP at 400 yards ?
The part KMitch quoted is pure BS as well.
My general opinion ?
Big deal, a "longslide", AMT was making them back in the 70's.
"Built to Mil. Spec" BFD, so wasn't the 1847 Horse pistol, that doesn't mean I want my life to depend on one.
They would have been better off to say "We build really nice pistols" rather than this crap only a mall ninja would believe.
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The only way you're getting combat anything out a .45 at 400 yards is if you are shooting it out of an airplane. Ringing steel? Maybe, 100 yards is routine with Desert Eagles and the like using high velocity rounds like 10mm, but .45 out of a 1911 at that range? Well, given that a 230 grain bullet will have dropped about 14 inches at a hundred yards, it might seem doable. A one foot hold over on a silhouette is not a problem. But the rate of drop isn't constant as velocity is decreasing. The holdover is 81 inches at 200 yards, Good luck with that. At 400 you do the math. Survey says bullshit.
FQ13
Here's one of the URLS I looked at. Its a bit from Cheaper than dirt. Its on the net it must be true right? But it makes a lot more sense than the OP.
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=4216
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http://www.karllippard.com/military/
1911A2 Combat NCO-The world’s only 400-yard open sight accurate production pistol
At an open house at Ben Lamond Gun Club yesterday and I met and shot one of his pistols.
He was firing at a gong 600 yrds. away in brisk wind. He got my interest right away.
I thought some might be interested in his pistol (steep $$). He does accuracy upgrades on existing 1911's.
He has some interest statements about what his mods are and type of steel, what causes wear.
I am a old newbie...
Oteroman
cough cough bullshit cough
Beats me how he can claim that its an effective 400 yrd defensive weapon. unless the free fall weight is capable of causing a nasty bruise.
Damn the 45 goes from dropping 4" at 100 to nearly 50" at 200, extrapliate that and one would have to adjust for nearly 8 feet of bullet drop. The momentum or energy left after that distance might hurt but wouldnt incapacitate anyone IF you could hit some one that is.
Sure might look fancy hitting a gong at 600 yrds and yeah its good (great) shooting but the average smo is lucky to hit a man size target at 100 let alone the claimed 400.
Maybe be it should only be available to those special ninja types
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I just did the math for standard 230 grain ball 850 fps out the muzzle and a BC of .195
zeroed at 25 yds( that is standard for most 1911)
at the muzzle
850 fps 369 energy
100 yds 797 fps 324 ftlbs 25.95" drop
200 751 288 106.58"
300 711 258 248.25"
400 674 232 457.53"
So it would still most likly be fatal. The bullet would be in the air for ~1.6 seconds
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What if you were holding it sideways all gangster style, maybe then it could be done.
I guess what they are saying, is that if you can do this "trick" with it, and shooting a target 400 yards away with a .45 IS a trick shot, then imagine how good it is at 7-25 yards. Guess it is like a car than can do 225 MPH is better than one that can do 140 MPH even though you would never drive either at that speed.
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Played with Sierra's ballistic program a few years ago and used the 230gr .45ACP at 850fps and tried different zero ranges to see what came up.
I don't remember the exact zero range but I think it was near 35yds.
At that zero, the bullet path would be within +/- 4 inches of point of aim out to 50yds.
You could zero this gun for 400yds and anything real close might still get hit, but the farther out you go, the less likely a hit.
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According to the 2010 Federal ballistics calculator a 230 FMJ Match round is as follows
Zero 50 yards
Trajectory 25yd is +1.1, 100 yd -11.8, 200 -77.2, 300 -205.2, 400 -405
FPS 844 799 745 697 654
ME 364 326 284 249 218
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From the
Lippard BS site:
Future Military Models and Weapons
A3 Pistol Model
All pistol parts identified with "A3" nomenclature are derived from this advanced model of a 1911. Parts are upgradeable to the 1911 A2 model pistols today.
This model pistol is not available at this time and considered KLD Classified. The key feature of this new pistol is advanced technology functionality with ammunition exceeding 4,000 feet per second.
So you see, "KLD Classified" must mean something like double secret probation, or a number 2 amber alert.
All you have to do is change the pistol and change the ammo and then change......AAWWW SCREW IT!!!
JUST PICK UP A DAMN RIFLE!!
This guy certainly is ambitious - his A5 model is "Slated for military use in 2100"
Dude, if your company is still slinging bullshit around in 89 years it will be a freaking MIRACLE!
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From the Lippard BS site:
Future Military Models and Weapons
A3 Pistol Model
All pistol parts identified with "A3" nomenclature are derived from this advanced model of a 1911. Parts are upgradeable to the 1911 A2 model pistols today.
This model pistol is not available at this time and considered KLD Classified. The key feature of this new pistol is advanced technology functionality with ammunition exceeding 4,000 feet per second.
So you see, "KLD Classified" must mean something like double secret probation, or a number 2 amber alert.
All you have to do is change the pistol and change the ammo and then change......AAWWW SCREW IT!!!
JUST PICK UP A DAMN RIFLE!!
This guy certainly is ambitious - his A5 model is "Slated for military use in 2100"
Dude, if your company is still slinging bullshit around in 89 years weeks it will be a freaking MIRACLE!
FIFY ;D
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Two questions:
1) Didn't Elmer Keith routinely do 400+ yards (exact distance unknown) with a sixgun?
2) Why isn't this pistol effective within 2 feet?
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Two questions:
1) Didn't Elmer Keith routinely do 400+ yards (exact distance unknown) with a sixgun?
2) Why isn't this pistol effective within 2 feet?
To answer :
1) Not sure it was "routinely", and it definitely was not a .45ACP, EK was using loads that were somewhat toned down to become the 44Mag.
2) I don't even want to take a guess on this . Some of the statements in the ad are just to stupid to comment on.
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actually tom at contact distance many autos won't even function.
You can try this by taking a unloaded gun and pushing it into something like a stiff pillow. The gun can go slightly out of battery from teh presure on the pillow. the same thing can happen with a body.
There have been a few cases over the years with LEOs having thier guns not go bang do to this .
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actually tom at contact distance many autos won't even function.
You can try this by taking a unloaded gun and pushing it into something like a stiff pillow. The gun can go slightly out of battery from teh presure on the pillow. the same thing can happen with a body.
There have been a few cases over the years with LEOs having thier guns not go bang do to this .
+1 It a chamber check using some one elses body.
We shoot at plates to 300 yards for shit's and giggles. I never hit anything past 200 yards and I have to walk them in like a mortar taking a couple of rounds. Some folks are getting hits at 300. Teaches trigger control and sight picture but not else.
It's tough to get hits at 400 yards with an M-4 and open sights if you don't practice.
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actually tom at contact distance many autos won't even function.
You can try this by taking a unloaded gun and pushing it into something like a stiff pillow. The gun can go slightly out of battery from teh presure on the pillow. the same thing can happen with a body.
There have been a few cases over the years with LEOs having thier guns not go bang do to this .
True enough, but there is 24 inches difference between what your talking about and what those pinheads are saying.
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Assuming a 230 gr bullet with 0.200 drag coefficient (e.g. a Sierra 45 Tournament Master) and an MV of 1000 fps then the GNU Ballistics Computer gives for 800 yards a drop of 1421 inches (118 ft), velocity 580 fps, flight time 3.26 secs. If the MV were 1200 fps the calculated drop would go down to 98 feet. That would be a power factor of 276, a really hot 45 ACP.
Aiming 118 ft (or 98 feet) over the target with ordinary iron sights would be interesting.
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It gets even better, until I see the vid,.. 800yds?...I call BS....
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/robert-farago/karl-lippard-nco-800-yard-grouping-confirmed-ish/#more-50039
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If you had a rear sight tall enough, you could zero your pistol for 400ydr.....but then it would shoot a bit high at 25 yds.
At 2 ft you probably would get a hit....unless you were using those sights and trying for a head shot.
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I've seen 300 yards with a glock 19 9mm, a .45 is going to retain more energy due to having twice the weight. IIRC Elmer Keith handed a guy a wad of cash ($500?) and told him to pace off 600 yards and stand still for 6 shots and he could keep the cash if he could walk away, the guy declined.
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I've seen 300 yards with a glock 19 9mm, a .45 is going to retain more energy due to having twice the weight. IIRC Elmer Keith handed a guy a wad of cash ($500?) and told him to pace off 600 yards and stand still for 6 shots and he could keep the cash if he could walk away, the guy declined.
It's a trick shot, any one who believes buying a particular pistol will make it possible is an idiot, and any one who tries to use it as a selling point is nothing but a scam artist.
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It's a trick shot, any one who believes buying a particular pistol will make it possible is an idiot, and any one who tries to use it as a selling point is nothing but a scam artist.
Exactly!
I've seen Mucelek shoot a 1-7/8 snubby out to 200 holding it upside down and hit a soda can...Same thing with Munden hitting balloons with a 1911 at 200 or longer.
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It's a trick shot, any one who believes buying a particular pistol will make it possible is an idiot, and any one who tries to use it as a selling point is nothing but a scam artist.
You mean that if I drop a bundle on one of these custom guns that I wont be able to automatically make 600 yard shots in a 55mph wind? I'm crushed. ::)
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Showed a buddy this the other day and his reaction was "hell that's easy". So now were going the the range tomorrow so that he can show me how easy it is by ringing the 300 yard steel plate with his 1911. It is about 10/12 inches square. I bet him that since he thinks 600 is easy he has no excuse not to hit 80% on his first mag., this should be fun! I can taste the Stone Cellar Stout(local mircobrewery) already.
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Showed a buddy this the other day and his reaction was "hell that's easy". So now were going the the range tomorrow so that he can show me how easy it is by ringing the 300 yard steel plate with his 1911. It is about 10/12 inches square. I bet him that since he thinks 600 is easy he has no excuse not to hit 80% on his first mag., this should be fun! I can taste the Stone Cellar Stout(local mircobrewery) already.
10"x12" at 300 with a 1911? The bet being 80% (say 5 out of 7) on the first mag? Hell, I'd bet pistols not beers. ;D
FQ13 who would like in on this bet. I don't care if he is the bastard love child of Elmer Keith and Annie Oakley, your money is safe. ;)
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He's got a Springfield Trophy Match with 10 rnd mags so we are talking 8 out of 10. I know he is hell on wheels with this gun at 25 yds or less so I guess I will not be too surprised if he starts ringing the steel but I'm thinking 80% starting cold bore has me in a pretty good spot.
To bet guns, you have to put up guns and I won't part with them anymore. A friendly wager, a cold beer and some good natured ribbing(whichever way it goes) works for me.
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I cant do any better than bowling pins at 100 yards with my 1911, and that's about 80% of the time with standard ball. It is not a stock gun, but not super modified Gov. Model. Oh and not from a rest ;)
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Any one can do it, after a butt load of experimenting on the same range.
Just watch your "fall of shot" until you find the proper angle to drop the round onto the plate the same way mortar men walk their rounds onto a target.
It's useless as the round is unlikely to retain enough energy to do more than hurt, but it will look cool to the ignorant
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Any one can do it, after a butt load of experimenting on the same range.
Just watch your "fall of shot" until you find the proper angle to drop the round onto the plate the same way mortar men walk their rounds onto a target.
It's useless as the round is unlikely to retain enough energy to do more than hurt, but it will look cool to the ignorant
I'll need an artillery spotter. I can't see a bowling pin at 100yds.
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Use a reference point, like the top of a tree in the background ;D
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Twenty years ago I could routinely keep shoots well within a standard NRA bullseye target at 100 with a .45 ACP 1911 loaded to about 1000 fps. Didn't really see much reason to do so, other than the the "hey, looky here" factor.
With a 7 1/2" Ruger Super Blackhawk, it was a different story.......I could ruin the day of a soda can, basically at will......
Now?............. Not so much......can't get the damn gun to be still long enough to hit the can......it's always wanting to move for some reason...... now a torso is a different story. ;) ;)
8)
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Without my glasses I can barely see a torso at 100 yards. ;D
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Without my glasses I can barely see a torso at 100 yards. ;D
Knock on wood, I still got my vision (except during pecan tree pollination season, about three weeks). ;D
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Knock on wood, I still got my vision (except during pecan tree pollination season, about three weeks). ;D
Yonder way. Damn Yankees! ;D
FQ13
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Are we still holdin' Richmond?
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Without my glasses I can barely see a torso at 100 yards. ;D
If the torso belonged to Denise Milani, I bet your vision would clear up!
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If the torso belonged to Denise Milani, I bet your vision would clear up!
If it was Denise Milani and she was waiting for me to target her, she wouldn't be at 100yds long.
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If it was Denise Milani and she was waiting for me to target her, she wouldn't be at 100yds long.
Indeed, she would be at 200 yards, then 300, then 400, hampered only by the dramatic breaking of the heel, but one look back, and off she goes barefoo!t :o. 500, 600 yards....and on the steam train and gone! ;D
FQ13
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If the torso belonged to Denise Milani, I bet your vision would clear up!
I had to Google that one.....
HOLY SCHNIKEES!!! Even I could see that one at 100 yards! Got. To. Get. Closer. ;D
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my grandfather can still hit a 8" ballon at 300 yds with a 38 snubby. I can't tell you the number of boxs of ammo he has won by doing that.
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Indeed, she would be at 200 yards, then 300, then 400, hampered only by the dramatic breaking of the heel, but one look back, and off she goes barefoo!t :o. 500, 600 yards....and on the steam train and gone! ;D
FQ13
Indeed, Suh.
In fact, I calculate that were any (most) of us to give chase to Denise Milani, our example may mimic the poor games-person in the video below. ;)
;D
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Indeed, she would be at 200 yards, then 300, then 400, hampered only by the dramatic breaking of the heel, but one look back, and off she goes barefoo!t :o. 500, 600 yards....and on the steam train and gone! ;D
FQ13
Don't judge everyone by yourself ;D
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Those 34DDDs would give me eye strain at 100 yards.
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Those 34DDDs would give me eye strain at 100 yards.
Just close your eyes, get closer and stuff your face in there and play motorboat.....vvvvvvvvvrrrrrrrrooooooommmmmmmmmm!!!!!
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If anyone cares...the beer was great! Mr. "That's Easy" didn't even hit steel with his first magazine. Of course my laughing and giving him crap most likely wasn't helping. He got so mad he handed me his gun and said since I was such a smartass I should show him how to do it. Missed my first shot, way short, and then hit the steel almost dead center with the second (totally and completely dumb luck). Since Mama didn't raise no dummies I promptly shrugged my shoulders and said "ya know you're right this really ain't that hard, is it?" Boy oh boy, the language some people learn in the Navy. I swear he went off like a rocket for several minutes and never used the same combination of words twice, it was a real master class in swearing.
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If anyone cares...the beer was great! Mr. "That's Easy" didn't even hit steel with his first magazine. Of course my laughing and giving him crap most likely wasn't helping. He got so mad he handed me his gun and said since I was such a smartass I should show him how to do it. Missed my first shot, way short, and then hit the steel almost dead center with the second (totally and completely dumb luck). Since Mama didn't raise no dummies I promptly shrugged my shoulders and said "ya know you're right this really ain't that hard, is it?" Boy oh boy, the language some people learn in the Navy. I swear he went off like a rocket for several minutes and never used the same combination of words twice, it was a real master class in swearing.
ROFLMAO ;D
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ROFLMAO ;D
+1 I hope the beer tasted as sweet as you imagened it would!
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LOL. That's probably the best laugh I'll have all day.
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Its one of the htings I try to stress to my students. One of the great secrets of succes in life is knowing when to walk away. ;D I bet that beer tasted great. ;D
FQ13