The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on June 27, 2011, 05:26:18 AM
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Ok, look, I'm all for gender equality and don't much give a damn about gay marriage. But then there is a point where you want to Gibbs head slap everyone in the room. Sweden. Its more than Ikea, Volvo and Absolut. Its now the home of a boy named Sue. ::) Posted without comment.
FQ13
This is from the AP 6/27
No 'him' or 'her'; preschool fights gender bias
ShareretweetEmailPrint AP – ADVANCE FOR MONDAY, JUNE 27 Children play in the garden of 'Egalia', a Swedish preschool aiming at gender … By JENNY SOFFEL, Associated Press Jenny Soffel, Associated Press – Sun Jun 26, 11:40 am ET
STOCKHOLM – At the "Egalia" preschool, staff avoid using words like "him" or "her" and address the 33 kids as "friends" rather than girls and boys.
From the color and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail has been carefully planned to make sure the children don't fall into gender stereotypes.
"Society expects girls to be girlie, nice and pretty and boys to be manly, rough and outgoing," says Jenny Johnsson, a 31-year-old teacher. "Egalia gives them a fantastic opportunity to be whoever they want to be."
The taxpayer-funded preschool which opened last year in the liberal Sodermalm district of Stockholm for kids aged 1 to 6 is among the most radical examples of Sweden's efforts to engineer equality between the sexes from childhood onward.
Breaking down gender roles is a core mission in the national curriculum for preschools, underpinned by the theory that even in highly egalitarian-minded Sweden, society gives boys an unfair edge.
To even things out, many preschools have hired "gender pedagogues" to help staff identify language and behavior that risk reinforcing stereotypes.
Some parents worry things have gone too far. An obsession with obliterating gender roles, they say, could make the children confused and ill-prepared to face the world outside kindergarten.
"Different gender roles aren't problematic as long as they are equally valued," says Tanja Bergkvist, a 37-year-old blogger and a leading voice against what she calls "gender madness" in Sweden.
Those bent on shattering gender roles "say there's a hierarchy where everything that boys do is given higher value, but I wonder who decides that it has higher value," she says. "Why is there higher value in playing with cars?"
At Egalia — the title connotes "equality" — boys and girls play together with a toy kitchen, waving plastic utensils and pretending to cook. One boy hides inside the toy stove, his head popping out through a hole.
Lego bricks and other building blocks are intentionally placed next to the kitchen, to make sure the children draw no mental barriers between cooking and construction.
Director Lotta Rajalin notes that Egalia places a special emphasis on fostering an environment tolerant of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. From a bookcase, she pulls out a story about two male giraffes who are sad to be childless — until they come across an abandoned crocodile egg.
Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no "Snow White," "Cinderella" or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes.
Rajalin, 52, says the staff also try to help the children discover new ideas when they play.
"A concrete example could be when they're playing 'house' and the role of the mom already is taken and they start to squabble," she says. "Then we suggest two moms or three moms and so on."
Egalia's methods are controversial; some say they amount to mind control. Rajalin says the staff have received threats from racists apparently upset about the preschool's use of black dolls.
But she says that there's a long waiting list for admission to Egalia, and that only one couple has pulled a child out of the school.
Jukka Korpi, 44, says he and his wife chose Egalia "to give our children all the possibilities based on who they are and not on their gender."
Sweden has promoted women's rights for decades, and more recently was a pioneer among European countries in allowing gay and lesbian couples to legalize their partnerships and adopt children.
Gender studies permeate academic life in Sweden. Bergkvist noted on her blog that the state-funded Swedish Science Council had granted $80,000 for a postdoctoral fellowship aimed at analyzing "the trumpet as a symbol of gender."
Jay Belsky, a child psychologist at the University of California, Davis, said he's not aware of any other school like Egalia, and he questioned whether it was the right way to go.
"The kind of things that boys like to do — run around and turn sticks into swords — will soon be disapproved of," he said. "So gender neutrality at its worst is emasculating maleness."
Egalia is unusual even for Sweden. Staff try to shed masculine and feminine references from their speech, including the pronouns him or her — "han" or "hon" in Swedish. Instead, they've have adopted the genderless "hen," a word that doesn't exist in Swedish but is used in some feminist and gay circles.
"We use the word "Hen" for example when a doctor, police, electrician or plumber or such is coming to the kindergarten," Rajalin says. "We don't know if it's a he or a she so we just say 'Hen is coming around 2 p.m.' Then the children can imagine both a man or a woman. This widens their view."
Egalia doesn't deny the biological differences between boys and girls — the dolls the children play with are anatomically correct.
What matters is that children understand that their biological differences "don't mean boys and girls have different interests and abilities," Rajalin says. "This is about democracy. About human equality."
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Some of observations.
While all that seems to be carrying things to far, I think a little gender role blending is a good thing.
Every notice how so may girls who grew up as tom-boys turn out to be outstanding women...from a man's point of view?
And every boy should grow into a man who knows his way around the kitchen and laundry room...maybe not enjoy them as well as work in the garage or reloading room, but enough to be capable.
"Society" might be able to blur gender distinctions and roles to ridiculous extremes but "Nature" pretty much set them up the way they are cause that is what worked to get us here. Let's not forget our heritage.
Also, Sweden has a large problem with abuse of women by men. Not sure how that relates to the gender role situation history of Sweden.
And Sweden is in the process of slowly de-Socializing as they have realized that Socialism just won't pay the bills. Functions previously controlled by the government are being gradually handed out to private concerns. Don't know how much the government is keeping their fingers in the private companies, but it is a good start.
Read a series of books by Steig Larsson, first one being The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, along with an unusual story line and heroine they give a bit of insight into Swedish society and politics. I found it a compelling series, but it won't be for everyone. Worth a try to see how it works for you. The author was an activist against violence against women and corrupt government.
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Might have a point Solus. Sweden is an example of the fact that socialism does not necessarily equate to Marxism or dictatorship. They also consistently report a greater overall "happiness" score than most other nations on earth (ours included) even though actual wages are lower. Taxes are high, stuff costs more, but lots of things are "free". Its not a system I would want, but it works for them. As long as I don't have to live there its all good. I do think you are right about gender roles though. Why is cooking "female" and mechanics "male"? And isn't every guy out there turned on by a woman who can change her own oil and knows her way around a rifle range? And how many women like a guy who can seriously cook, I mean "I'd pay twenty bucks for this" cook, and also knows how to dress well enough to be appropriate for whatever event they are attending?
FQ13
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Ok, look, I'm all for gender equality and don't much give a damn about gay marriage. But then there is a point where you want to Gibbs head slap everyone in the room. Sweden. Its more than Ikea, Volvo and Absolut. Its now the home of a boy named Sue. ::)
Posted without comment.
FQ13
??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::) :-\
Liar?
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??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::) :-\
Liar?
Ok, Ok. Lets change that to "posted without rant". ;) Good enough Path?
FQ13
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They also consistently report a greater overall "happiness" score than most other nations on earth (ours included)
Also, Sweden has a large problem with abuse of women by men. Not sure how that relates to the gender role situation history of Sweden.
Isn't this a contradiction? If it's that large of a problem, why would Swedish women be happier? The entire article sounds like more of the PC crap that is destroying our inner cities, and heralding in the end of western civilization. What you want to bet that the Islamic people who are slowly, but surely becoming the majority in Europe, don't have a problem with gender bias.
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Isn't this a contradiction? If it's that large of a problem, why would Swedish women be happier? The entire article sounds like more of the PC crap that is destroying our inner cities, and heralding in the end of western civilization. What you want to bet that the Islamic people who are slowily, but surely becoming the majority in Europe, don't have a problem with gender bias.
You might be right about the size of the abuse problem. I got my information from researching the author of the books and found he was a crusader against the excessive abuse in Sweden. I inferred it was higher than other places, the US for instance, when, in fact, it might be half of what it is here, but their society feels that is extremely excessive.
Will see if I can find some comparison of levels.
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Found this. Might explain why they are happier than other countries even though the abuse is more of a problem there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/world/europe/29iht-letter-4909045.html
Feminists here are seldom hectored about quashing family values or derided, at least publicly, as a gang of old-fashioned, castration-happy women. Relentlessly, they have pushed for woman's rights, and their triumphs are well-known: Sweden ranks at the top (or near to it) in the number of women who hold public office, serve as cabinet ministers, graduate from university and hold jobs. Mothers are granted long periods of maternity leave, and they send their children to excellent day-care centers.
If anything, the movement is gaining strength: Sweden is expected later this year to create its first "feminist" political party, which a recent poll indicated could court as many as 1 in 5 voters.
But there is one significant blot on the record of women's empowerment here: domestic violence, a crime that until recently remained muffled in shame. Swedish men are not any more violent toward women in Sweden than the men of most other West European countries are toward their countrywomen. It has simply been easier for them to get away with violence against wives and girlfriends, experts and politicians said, and harder for women to get the help they need. Attitudes about wife-beating have been slow to change, they say.
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As Sam Kinisen said "I don't condone Wife beating, I understand it, But I don't condone it"
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Director Lotta Rajalin notes that Egalia places a special emphasis on fostering an environment tolerant of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people.
No agenda there...nope, not at all. Don't think - let others that are better at it do it for you.
Keep catering to the fruits and nuts and they will end up just like San Francisco. Ever seen pictures of one of their parades? Great place to take the kids!
Then you can explain to your 5 year old what oral sex is and why people shouldn't do it in the street.
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"Director Lotta Rajalin notes that Egalia places a special emphasis on fostering an environment tolerant of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people."
This is a pre school for crying out loud.
No wonder their teen pregnancy rate is 2nd only to Iceland.
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"Director Lotta Rajalin notes that Egalia places a special emphasis on fostering an environment tolerant of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people."
This is a pre school for crying out loud.
No wonder their teen pregnancy rate is 2nd only to Iceland.
Maybe pushing tolerance for gays and lasbians is their way of combatting it. Screw putting your daughter on the pill, tell her to bring a nice girl home instead. ;D
FQ13