The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on June 27, 2011, 08:04:06 PM
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PIERRE, S.D. (AP) — One of the participants in a mock Old West gun battle in South Dakota fired live ammunition instead of using blanks, wounding three tourists, authorities announced Friday.
More than 100 people attended the show a week ago staged by the Dakota Wild Bunch re-enactors, who perform several times a week in Hill City, a tourist town in the Black Hills.
--SNIP--
A 49-year-old member of the re-enactor group fired four live rounds during the June 17 show, Thom said. No phone listing could be found for the man.
The bullets shattered a leg bone of Carrol Knutson, 65, of Birchwood, Minn.; hit the forearm and elbow of John Ellis, 48, an optometrist from South Connellsville, Penn.; and caused minor injuries to Jose Pruneda, 53, of Alliance, Neb.
There was no immediate comment from re-enactors. On its Facebook page, the group has said their members are not allowed to bring live rounds to performances.
--SNIP--
Thom said investigators from the sheriff's office, the Rapid City Police Department and the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives used information gathered in the investigation to recreate the shooting scene this week. They located three lead bullets in different locations and traced them to a .45-caliber handgun used in the mock shootout, he said.
Four spent casings and two unfired cartridges with lead bullets were located near the scene Friday afternoon, the sheriff said. The gun, the casings and the bullets will be sent the state crime lab in Pierre for testing, he said.
Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Authorities-Live-bullets-fired-at-Old-West-show-1439313.php#ixzz1QWnaRoeC
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And this is why we NEVER allow Reenactors to even pretend they know anything about REAL guns!!!!
Mb
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This part really sounds odd.
"Four spent casings and two unfired cartridges with lead bullets were located near the scene Friday afternoon, the sheriff said"
As if there were an attempt to conceal the use of real ammo.
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This part really sounds odd.
"Four spent casings and two unfired cartridges with lead bullets were located near the scene Friday afternoon, the sheriff said"
As if there were an attempt to conceal the use of real ammo.
And that is why someone will be going to the pokey over this. Not the ND, but for the cover-up.
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And that is why someone will be going to the pokey over this. Not the ND, but for the cover-up.
If you were trying to cover it up wouldn't you, I don't know, put the live rounds in your pocket and then trash them and the rest of the box rather than leaving them on the ground at a crime scene? Of course these are reenactors and they didn't have all that forensic stuff back in the old west. ;D
FQ13
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After the first round wouldn't you think to yourself, "Gee, that blank had RECOIL!" ::)
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Sounds like when everyone realized there was a problem, the guy who did it (assuming it was not intentional) also realized it was him.
Perhaps they did a "lock down" and intended to check all weapons used. The idiot emptied his cylinder of the four spent shells and to unfired ones. Didn't think to try to hide them or was worried he would be searched before he could dispose of them.
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Alternatively, maybe this particular re-enactor was a complete whack-job who panicked when he realized what he'd done.
It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone, even someone with limited experience or background using firearms, would continue to fire after seeing an unexpected hole show up in the guy he was aiming at.
This sounds like an intentional "accident" and my money is on the whack-job.
FWIW Crusader
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Alternatively, maybe this particular re-enactor was a complete whack-job who panicked when he realized what he'd done.
It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone, even someone with limited experience or background using firearms, would continue to fire after seeing an unexpected hole show up in the guy he was aiming at.
This sounds like an intentional "accident" and my money is on the whack-job.
FWIW Crusader
Crappy shot if it was intentional, none of the wounds are all that serious - painful no doubt, but not exactly what I would call intentional. Then again, if it was a whack job nutball, then maybe a little mayhem was all he wanted.
My money is on the "Oops, did I do that" meme followed by dumping the shells since the cops did not find them that quickly.
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Nice choice: Nutjob or Dipshit.
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This is a head scratcher. You'd think that there would be a simple ban on live ammo at these things and an inspection before the show started. I mean at bird dog field trials only blank guns are permitted, and every "weapon" is checked, as no one wants their $10,000 pointer shot in the ass by some nimrod. Its been that way for decades. You'd think the reneactors would have a similar rule. All ammo must be looked at by an official. It takes an extra half hour and prevents this sort of crap. ::) >:(
FQ13
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Good dogs are expensive, people are cheap.
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Checking the guns is how it should be done.
It will stop the Idiots but not the Whack Jobs who could have a pocket full of live rounds.
Short of TSA type patdowns, there isn't much way of stopping them, and even that might be useless unless everyone who can get close to the shooters is also searched.
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Checking the guns is how it should be done.
It will stop the Idiots but not the Whack Jobs who could have a pocket full of live rounds.
Short of TSA type patdowns, there isn't much way of stopping them, and even that might be useless unless everyone who can get close to the shooters is also searched.
IIRC in one of his podcasts MB mentioned that for simunition type "Force on Force" training that is exactly what is done.
The idea being that the best way to prevent accidents is to eliminate as many variables as possible.
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Good dogs are expensive, people are cheap.
Right up until they hire a lawyer. ;D
FQ13
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IIRC in one of his podcasts MB mentioned that for simunition type "Force on Force" training that is exactly what is done.
The idea being that the best way to prevent accidents is to eliminate as many variables as possible.
Yes. But there the group is limited and contained.
Don't know how it was at that show, but unless the crowd was effectively isolated, it won't stop the nut job.
I guess the shooters can be corralled and watched till show time.
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Yes. But there the group is limited and contained.
Don't know how it was at that show, but unless the crowd was effectively isolated, it won't stop the nut job.
I guess the shooters can be corralled and watched till show time.
There was a story about the old west, A magician came to town, one of his illusions was to "catch a bullet" in his teeth. the crowd watched as his assistant carefully aimed and fired a blank, and erupted into cheers as the magician spit out the bullet he had earlier secreted in his cheek.
A drunk in the audience yelled out "That's d*mned good, catch this one" and shot him dead.
The moral being you can't beat stupid.
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I don't mean to be harsh here, but my experience with re-enactors has NOT been good. My experience has been that they focus on their acting; the groups I've worked with haven't run a dedicated armorer, which is almost a necessity on a complex production (we run a dedicated armorer on our hard-to-film stuff), and oftentimes the actors provide their own guns and sometimes their own blanks.
That would not be acceptable to me...I prefer a single point check-in/check-out system, where there is one and only one person allocating blank ammo. When we have worked with re-enactor groups, we have treated their guns the same way we guns in sims--rigidly. I saw a pilot for a series that was put together by a big re-enactor group in the LA area, many of them stunt professionals...GOOD GRIEF, the gun-handling was TERRIFYING! It was honestly hard to watch, because virtually everything they did was wrong. This is pretty much consistent with some of stunt people I've been around...many have never had any Real World training or even any live ammunition training, and they see the guns as just another prop (which gives propmasters gray hair!).
The problem with acting troupes/re-enactors is that they may understand the mechanics of the moves. but they haven't really internalized the implications of the moves. As we move into a more F-on-F sim environment, we're going to have to address the implications on safety...I have already occasionally seen a more casual approach to gun-handling after long periods of F-on-F. It's a question without and answer right now...
Michael B
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This kind of thing killed Brandon Lee during the filming of "The Crow"....Lots of real guns on the set. Lots of blanks. Too many hands in the cookie jar. A Director that wanted as "realistic" a scene, and live ammo introduced into the mix....
Ball was dropped, safety was compromised,....somebody dropped the ball....and folks were hurt,...and in Brandon's case,...killed.
Single point, as MB posted is a firewall. All guns check in, all ammo checks out,....not just once, but two or three times.
During the Miami Vice days,...the armorer would literally lock down the set if one blank, or spent case was unaccounted for.
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MB makes the bottom line point......these aren't gun people, they're actors. Assuming that actors know about guns is akin to assuming cops do. Just because guns are part of the uniform, so to speak, doesn't mean they know "what Bess Truman spent 35 years trying to get Harry to call fertilizer" from Shinola about guns.
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http://www.startribune.com/local/125424033.html (http://www.startribune.com/local/125424033.html)
We need more laws, because passing new ones is easier than enforcing the ones we have >:(
This just keeps getting worse and worse!
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FTA :
"The re-enactor alleged to have fired live bullets was imprisoned from April 1982 to January 1984 on two first-degree assault charges, said Sarah Berg, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota Department of Corrections.
He returned to prison on Dec. 14, 1990 to serve time for second-degree burlary but was convicted of escape less than two months later, which extended his stay. He was released in May 1992. In October 2001, he began serving another sentence for escape, which was extended by a Dec. 2001 escape conviction. He got out in May 2004, Berg said."
Didn't the producer of the show do ANY kind of "due diligence" ?
Like maybe asking if this guy was legally able to own a gun ?