The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on July 08, 2011, 12:18:25 PM
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http://beta.news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-pakistanis-tip-off-militants-again-185727922.html
AP sources: Pakistanis tip off militants again
APBy KIMBERLY DOZIER - AP Intelligence Writer | AP – Sun, Jun 19, 2011
WASHINGTON (AP) — In another blow to Washington's relationship with Pakistan, U.S. officials say Pakistan failed another test to prove it could be trusted to go after American enemies on its soil by intentionally or inadvertently tipping off militants at two more bomb-building factories in its tribal areas, giving the suspected terrorists time to flee.
The two sites' locations in the tribal areas had been shared with the Pakistani government this past week, the officials said Saturday. The Americans monitored the area with satellite and unmanned drones to see what would happen.
In each case, within a day or so after sharing the information, they watched the militants depart, taking any weapons or bomb-making materials with them, just as militants had done the first two times. Only then, did they watch the Pakistani military visit each site, when the terror suspects and their wares were long gone, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss matters of intelligence.
The Americans suspect that either lower-level Pakistani officials are directly tipping the militants off to the imminent raids, or the tips are coming through the local tribal elders that Pakistan insists on informing of the raids. U.S. officials have pushed for Pakistan to keep the location of such targets secret prior to the operations, but the Pakistanis say their troops cannot enter the lawless regions without giving the locals notice.
The latest incidents bring to a total of four bomb-making sites that the U.S. has shared with Pakistan only to have the terrorist suspects flee before the Pakistani military arrive. Both sides are attempting to mend relations and rebuild trust after the U.S. raid on May 2 that killed Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad, a Pakistani army town only 35 miles from the capital Islamabad.
The Pakistanis believe the Americans violated their sovereignty by keeping them in the dark about the raid. American officials believe bin Laden's location proves that some elements of the Pakistani army or Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, helped hide the al-Qaida mastermind.
"They are playing this very dangerous game ... by having elements of the ISI sympathetic to the Taliban and al-Qaida," said House Intelligence committee chairman Mike Rogers, R-Mich., speaking on CBS' "Face the Nation."
Rogers said Pakistan's failure to apprehend the militants running the bomb-making factories "sends the wrong message" at a time Congress is considering reducing some $1.5 billion in annual aid to Pakistan in retaliation after the recent series of such disagreements.
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., agreed with the notion of benchmarks. "After all, the United States is investing billions and billions of dollars in Pakistan," McCain said on "This Week" on ABC. "Taxpayers have a right to have a return on that."
In response, Pakistan army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas neither confirmed nor denied the new report that militants were tipped off, but he criticized U.S. officials for making such allegations anonymously.
"Why are these faceless U.S. officials speaking through the media?" Abbas said. "Why don't they come out in the open so that we can respond to them with clarity?"
Abbas said that these "so-called officials" should remember that roadside bombs manufactured by the militants have killed and wounded many Pakistani soldiers.
"Does it make sense to allow this 'killer machine' to continue targeting our troops who are deployed all over the place?" he said.
Last week, Pakistan's army disputed earlier reports that its security forces had tipped off insurgents at bomb-making, calling the assertions of collusion with militants "totally false and malicious."
Pakistani army officials claimed Friday they had successfully raided two more sites, after finding nothing at the first two, but a Pakistani official reached Friday offered no details of what they found.
The official admitted that in each raid, however, the Pakistani security services notified the local elders who hold sway in the tribal regions. Speaking anonymously to discuss intelligence matters, the official said they would investigate U.S. charges that the militants had been tipped off.
Two U.S. officials said they were asking the Pakistanis to withhold such sensitive information from the elders, and even their lower ranks, to carry out their raids in secret, to prove they could be trusted to go after U.S. enemies.
At least two of the sites were run by the Haqqani network, which is part of the Taliban, closely allied with al-Qaida, and blamed for some of the deadliest attacks against U.S. troops and civilians in neighboring Afghanistan. Pakistan has long resisted attacking the Haqqani network, saying the group has never attacked the state of Pakistan.
The intelligence sharing was intended as a precursor to building a new joint intelligence team of CIA officers together with Pakistani intelligence agents. But U.S. officials say Pakistan has failed to quickly approve the visas needed, despite agreeing to form the team in May.
U.S. officials have also accused Pakistan of holding up to five Pakistani nationals accused of helping the CIA spy on the Abbottabad compound in advance of the bin Laden raid.
Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S., Husain Haqqani, confirmed Sunday that Pakistan had rounded up more than 30 people as part of the investigation. He said they were being questioned for information, not punished, but did not say what would happen to them if charged and found guilty of spying.
Speaking on ABC, Haqqani said if any among them were informants who worked for the CIA, "we will deal with them as we would deal with an offending intelligence service and we will resolve this to the satisfaction of our friends, as well as to our own laws."
The Pakistani government, according to the official reached earlier, views any citizen who worked with the U.S. to spy on the compound as having betrayed his or her country by failing to tip off the government that someone the Americans wanted was hiding there. The government's position, the official said, is that such a tip could have saved the Pakistani government the embarrassment of being surprised by the bin Laden raid.
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Here's a clue to those who are in any doubt here. It is not a matter of "rogue elements" tipping off the terrorists while Pakistan helps us fight the Anti-American Islamacist enemy, Pakistan IS the freaking Anti-American Islamacist enemy. Look, they have created and nurtured these guys for decades. First they aimed them at India, then at the Sovs, and now they are aiming them at us. And we are shocked and surprised by this why? Personally, I think we should go hat in hand to India, offer a sincere apology for backing the wrong horse during the Cold War and acknowledge that they recognized that the Chinese and the Pakistanis were the real enemy before we did. Give them a mea culpa (which BO is good at, and it is deserved in this case :P) and officially switch sides. "What Pakistani border" and what "tribal areas" (the name alone tells you all you need to know)? It all looks like Southern Afghanistan or Northern India to me. ;D If they don't like it, they can clean up their own mess.
FQ13
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At one time it all WAS "Southern Afghanistan or Northern India ", the nation of Pakistan is nothing but lines on a map of British India.
As it stands FQ is not wrong on this one.
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DAMN! Looks like we are gonna need a lot more "Reaching Out" to them. Hillary's work is never done
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At one time it all WAS "Southern Afghanistan or Northern India ", the nation of Pakistan is nothing but lines on a map of British India.
As it stands FQ is not wrong on this one.
Well gang it's time to prepare for the end of life as we know it. It appears that the earth is going to be destroyed within a very short time. Grab your towels! Tombogan agreed with FQ! We are lost as a species!
Pecos, who almost had to call 911.
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Could we get away with declaring Pakistan a site of our "Nuclear Arms Reduction" efforts?
Reduction by detonation.
Maybe we fly an old B-52 heavily loaded over them and have an... "Accident". :o :-X
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Well gang it's time to prepare for the end of life as we know it. It appears that the earth is going to be destroyed within a very short time. Grab your towels! Tombogan agreed with FQ! We are lost as a species!
Pecos, who almost had to call 911.
Relax, I did not say" I agree with him". even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (I did buy a lottery ticket though ;D )
Could we get away with declaring Pakistan a site of our "Nuclear Arms Reduction" efforts?
Reduction by detonation.
Maybe we fly an old B-52 heavily loaded over them and have an... "Accident". :o :-X
Why not, we did it to Spain back in the 60's.
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And Auntie Sec. State Hillary made sure we continue giving them money?
I've heard politics makes strange bedfellows,.....but it's just bribery and payoffs at this point....
Maybe we need a stronger negotiator like Allen West?
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Maybe we need a stronger negotiator like Allen West?
Or Maybe William Shatner? Who can argue with the Falcon of Truth? ;D
FQ13
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Maybe we need a stronger negotiator like Allen West?
Or John Bolton? ? ? ?
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Relax, I did not say" I agree with him". even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (I did buy a lottery ticket though ;D )
Sorry Tom, I didn't realize we were using "lawyer speak" I figured since you said FQ was not wrong you were implying agreement. My mistake.
Pecos who stands chastised.
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Is this guy available ?
Sorry Tom, I didn't realize we were using "lawyer speak" I figured since you said FQ was not wrong you were implying agreement. My mistake.
Pecos who stands chastised.
Sorry Pecos but I just couldn't make myself use the "R" word in reference to FQ ;D
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Is this guy available ?
Sorry Pecos but I just couldn't make myself use the "R" word in reference to FQ ;D
Pecos, thanks for having my six, but Tom can Dis me up, down, and sideways and I will forgive him because here he's demonstrating how "negotiating" ought to be done. In this case, it serves a greater good 8). Here's the question. Given that our defense budget exceeds the GDP of most countries,Given that we have enough nukes to blow the planet up about four times over, and Given that our conventional forces can ruin any other nations whole day, "WHY ISN'T THIS OUR NEGOTIATING STRATEGY WITH THE FREAKING TERRORISTS, THE SAUDIS, THE PAKIS AND THE IRANIANS? WTF ARE WE THINKING? WHY THE HELL AM I PAYING FOR ALL THESE EXPENSIVE WIDGETS OF DESTRUCTION AND TRAINED OPERATORS IF WE WON'T USE THEM? Is that hard to elect someone serious enough to convince the other side that we would pull the trigger? Seriously, I would.
All kidding aside, I'd drop the hammer on Saudi, the NKs or Pakistan in a heartbeat. So would Tom or Path, and we are more often than not oposed to one another. So why is it so hard to elect people, whether they are liberal or conservative, who can manage to credibly scare the the 3rd world? It seems like that would be a prerequisite for office. (Rant over, It just had to be said).
FQ13 who is just sayin'
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FQ, one word - and it ain't plastics. Well, it is, sort of - oil.
The deal was made post WWII that the mooslims can get away with damn near anything so long as the oil flows freely and damn the cost. The problem is, someone in the 40's seemed to forget about that whole getting burned thing when you shake hands with the devil.
TPTB who have directed the US and pretty much the Western world since WWII have dictated that the oil shall flow freely to power the industries of the world. Nothing will be allowed to interfere with that.
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Guys I've read through this again and have a few comments.
First: FQ, I don't know if it's covering your six or just being tired of personal attacks and folks attempting to wiggle out of their comments by using lawyer speak. Nothing personal Tom just tired of your blasting everyone who doesn't agree with you.
Second: as far as the Middle East is concerned I think we have been there too long and wasted too many lives (U. S. and Allied) and we need to get the hell out of there now. Let those fools kill each other but keep them confined to their own country.
Third: my first reaction to this mess was the same as it was for Vietnam. Blow the hell out of the b.....ds and go home. Since then I've become familiar with a book written several thousand years ago. I've not read it but I have discussed it with those who have and I think it applies to Vietnam and the Middle East. The book is The Art if War by Sun Tzu. (sp) Overwhelming force will not work against an enemy you can't see. To counter such an enemy you must use the same tactics or give up the fight. Our guys are trying but it's got to be hard.
Rant over.
Pecos who hasn't typed that much in a long time .... a very long time.
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But every word was worth reading Pecos. So thanks.
FQ13
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Pecos, I'll comment on each of your paragraphs seperately.
The 1st one, I don't much care, (and I expect you don't care whether I do or not ) I base my "blasts " on cited historical precedents. Like the Bible says, "There is nothing new under the sun" (except maybe sexting ).
The third paragraph about "The Art of War" makes the 2nd irrelevant. Sun Tzu also stresses the need for coherent and concise objectives before war is decided upon. The reason we became bogged down in pointless sacrifice in both Vietnam and Afghanistan is because our Politicians refuse to face that fact. If the objective were something as tangible as "taking their damned oil" we would see an achievable objective, we hold the oil fields and they are to beaten to do anything about it = we win.
The touchy feely stupidity of "Spreading Democracy" to people who don't want it is simply a path to either the same type of embarrassment we faced in Vn. or a war that will never end.
A lesson from Sun Tzu that was illustrated by , our own revolution , the Phillipine insurrection, and VN. is that the greatest army in history can never defeat a foe who simply refuses to give up, since that is exactly the type of foe we are facing in Afghanistan we need to either set a concrete , coherent objective and achieve it, or else say "We have blown up X amount of stuff, and killed Y number of people. Don't make us come back." And then get the hell out of there.
(Musashi's "Book of five Rings" is another good one )
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I bow to an obviously superior intellect. You are correct Tom I really don't care what you think of me and I know you don't care what I think of you and I know that you know that also. I t is, however, on occasion to read the drivel you produce and I look forward to more of the same. Do you, by chance, have your own radio talk show?
Pecos, who's just asking.
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I don't talk like I write. I learned to write from reading books, I learned to talk hanging around gravel pits, barracks and factories.
If I had a radio show it would be one long BEEEEP. ;D
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I don't talk like I write. I learned to write from reading books, I learned to talk hanging around graval pit barracks and factories.
If I had a radio show it would be one long BEEEEP. ;D
I was thinking you'd give Beck or Rush a run for their money.
Pecos
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The Obama administration plans to suspend or cancel hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to Pakistan, amid concerns over whether that money is being well spent in the fight against militant groups inside the country's borders.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/10/us-reportedly-looking-to-suspend-millions-in-military-aid-to-pakistan/
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I was thinking you'd give Beck or Rush a run for their money.
Pecos
O'Reilly has his "pinheads and Patriots", think I could get away with "azzholes and Americans" ? ;D
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O'Rielly has his "pinheads and Patriots", think I could get away with "azzholes and Americans" ? ;D
Hell yes! Some of the language I hear on one of our local stations is as bad or worse than what I at my real job. I wasn't thinking in terms of language though. I was thinking in terms of ideas.
Pecos
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I can't understand why no real politician grasps the ideas I present here.
Most of them are fairly simple. Read back through history, it's all happened before, wars, economics, immigration, none of its "new". Some countries tried the wrong answer and failed, some tried other things and got it right.
Why do our politicians ALWAYS pick the wrong answer ?
If it was stupidity the law of averages says they would have to get it right once in a while. Hell, the bread even falls butter side up some times.
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Why do our politicians ALWAYS pick the wrong answer ?
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Greed.
Power Lust.
A feeling of invincibility.
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Greed.
Power Lust.
A feeling of invincibility.
Add: Lack of follow-through by citizens on Jefferson's whole Tree of Liberty quote too!
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Add: Lack of follow-through by citizens on Jefferson's whole Tree of Liberty quote too!
Screw that Path, barely forty percent bother to vote in off year elections and a darn sight fewer in odd year state races. Forget asking folks to shed or spill blood, I'd be happy to see more get off the couch and take half an hour to vote. 2008 was the first year I had to wait more than a few minutes on line to vote, and that's just sad.
FQ13
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Screw that Path, barely forty percent bother to vote in off year elections and a darn sight fewer in odd year state races. Forget asking folks to shed or spill blood, I'd be happy to see more get off the couch and take half an hour to vote. 2008 was the first year I had to wait more than a few minutes on line to vote, and that's just sad.
FQ13
Yet another demonstration of how little you truly understand! As that commie cow Emma Goldman is reputed to have said, if things could be changed through voting, they'd outlaw voting! And yes, I know she labelled herself as an anarchist, but I liked the alliteration of commie cow. So sue me! ;)
Think 3% FQ, therein lies the hope of this country. Not in the masses of sheeple, but the 3% who (a) give a damn, and (b) are willing to water that tree either way.
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Yet another demonstration of how little you truly understand! As that commie cow Emma Goldman is reputed to have said, if things could be changed through voting, they'd outlaw voting! And yes, I know she labelled herself as an anarchist, but I liked the alliteration of commie cow. So sue me! ;)
Think 3% FQ, therein lies the hope of this country. Not in the masses of sheeple, but the 3% who (a) give a damn, and (b) are willing to water that tree either way.
+10, We have talked ourselves hoarse on the "soap box", but the socialists over come that by telling the sheep what they want to hear regardless of truth or sense.
The current "President" proves that the majority of voters are to stupid to get the job done at the ballot box.
That leave the cartridge box as the only viable means of saving our society.
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Think 3% FQ, therein lies the hope of this country. Not in the masses of sheeple, but the 3% who (a) give a damn, and (b) are willing to water that tree either way.
+10, We have talked ourselves hoarse on the "soap box", but the socialists over come that by telling the sheep what they want to hear regardless of truth or sense.
The current "President" proves that the majority of vo0ters are to stupid to get the job done at the ballot box.
That leave the cartridge box as the only viable means of saving our society.
Yep.