The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on July 11, 2011, 06:43:35 PM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43710936/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001
An Oklahoma pharmacist has been sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole for first-degree murder in the shooting death of a teenager who tried to rob the south Oklahoma City pharmacy where he worked.
Fifty-nine-year-old Jerome Ersland was sentenced Monday after Oklahoma County District Judge Ray Elliott rejected a defense motion to suspend the sentence.
Ersland had no reaction and said nothing as the sentence was handed down. As he left the courtroom, he responded to a reporter's shouted question by calling the sentence "an injustice of a monumental proportion."
A jury convicted Ersland and recommended the life with the possibility of parole sentence for the May 2009 shooting of 16-year-old Antwun Parker. Defense attorney Irven Box said the conviction and sentence will be appealed.
Confronted by two holdup men, Ersland pulled a gun, shot one of them in the head and chased the other away. Then, in a scene recorded by the drugstore's security camera, he went behind the counter, got another gun, and pumped five more bullets into Parker as he lay on the floor unconscious.
At the trial, prosecutors argued that Ersland crossed into the wrong when he shot the unarmed and unconscious Parker five more times.
Ersland contended that he was defending himself and two co-workers from a robber who still posed a threat.
'Please don't give up hope'
Thousands of Ersland's supporters have reportedly signed petitions pushing Gov. Mary Fallin to pardon the pharmacist, or ease his sentence.
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The video showed the victim shot in the head,...(the first time),....what was the continued threat that required getting another firearm and shooting 5 more times?
just askin'
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The video showed the victim shot in the head,...(the first time),....what was the continued threat that required getting another firearm and shooting 5 more times? just askin'
There was none. That is where he did himself in. He stopped the threat. There was no reason to "finish him off". This is where "shooting to stop", as opposed to "shooting to kill", plays such an important role. He stopped the threat successfully, which was in his legal right to do. He then set himself up as executioner. That is murder. Bill T.
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There was none. That is where he did himself in. He stopped the threat. There was no reason to "finish him off". This is where "shooting to stop", as opposed to "shooting to kill", plays such an important role. He stopped the threat successfully, which was in his legal right to do. He then set himself up as executioner. That is murder. Bill T.
+10
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+100
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I'm not shocked at all...
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There was none. That is where he did himself in. He stopped the threat. There was no reason to "finish him off". This is where "shooting to stop", as opposed to "shooting to kill", plays such an important role. He stopped the threat successfully, which was in his legal right to do. He then set himself up as executioner. That is murder. Bill T.
Can't put it much plainer than that.
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Should have just double tapped him at the beginning and left it there.
Well I suppose thats two people (the robber and the store clerk) out of the gene pool for the forseable future.
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Should have just double tapped him at the beginning and left it there.
Well I suppose thats two people (the robber and the store clerk) out of the gene pool for the forseable future.
He was the owner/pharmacist.
If he had just not run after the fleeing criminal he may have successfully used his older age and back brace defense. If the guy was so much as wiggling his toes while on the ground the sentence, if any, may have been lighter. In Oklahoma you get a bit of a pass for being aged, rightfully so because of the physical disparity. I don't know if he had a concealed carry permit or not, since it was his personal business he could do what he wants here....but if he had a concealed carry permit for outside the store I wonder if he got good instruction. I have heard of a couple of two hour places that don't take the time and care to instruct you in various scenarios which would have taught this guy what he needed to know to stay out of jail.
It looks like murder when you see it....but then again everything is situational......if the guy threatened to kill him or come back some day and kill him or if there was some history there thug violence was it really murder or taking care of a problem when you had the opportunity "your terms", as it were? Some bad guys will come back to finish the job later.
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He was the owner/pharmacist.
If he had just not run after the fleeing criminal he may have successfully used his older age and back brace defense. If the guy was so much as wiggling his toes while on the ground the sentence, if any, may have been lighter. In Oklahoma you get a bit of a pass for being aged, rightfully so because of the physical disparity. I don't know if he had a concealed carry permit or not, since it was his personal business he could do what he wants here....but if he had a concealed carry permit for outside the store I wonder if he got good instruction. I have heard of a couple of two hour places that don't take the time and care to instruct you in various scenarios which would have taught this guy what he needed to know to stay out of jail.
It looks like murder when you see it....but then again everything is situational......if the guy threatened to kill him or come back some day and kill him or if there was some history there thug violence was it really murder or taking care of a problem when you had the opportunity "your terms", as it were? Some bad guys will come back to finish the job later.
I agree, Rastus.
Watching the pharmacist come back, get a fresh loaded gun and shoot the defenseless bad gun sure made me feel like he was committing murder.
However, in thinking about possible self defense scenarios, I always have the thought that if the bad guy is not killed, or even if he is, he or his partners/family are likely to seek revenge....and it will be at a time of their choosing and on their terms.
I also see that I am not in a position to go hunting for them as that is just as much murder as shooting the bad guy after he was down.
Some tough questions and tougher answers. You can't "win" if you don't fight by their rules.
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Morality aside , if you are going to do that don't do it in front of your own camera. ::)
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Morality aside , if you are going to do that don't do it in front of your own camera. ::)
yeah...wondered how he could have forgotten it was there.
He should have gotten the fresh gun, checked outside for the runner, come back in, grabbed his chest with his off hand and fired off six rounds in a spasm as he collapsed to the floor.....
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To quote Bernie Goetz "You don't look so bad, have another". One of the secrets to success in life is knowing when to quit while you are ahead. :P
FQ13
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Chicago mob boss Sam Giancana once showed a young wiseguy a Marlin he had mounted on his wall, He said to the kid, "You know, If that fish kept his mouth shut he never would have got caught"
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I swore I wasn't going to chime in here in more than in a light hearted raised eyebrow kind of way. Folks say I get a bit righteous sometimes and they're right. I'm trying to fight that, so bear with me. But the more I think about it, the more this guy bugs me as he makes us all look bad. When I got called to jury duty I joked "I hope its an SD shooting, it'll be the easiest defense case ever". Well, not here. Emptying your gun even after he's down, that's a case of nerves. Even if its obviously a case of you being pissed at a guy robbing YOUR store, as a juror, I'm going to say tie goes to the runner, or to wax literary, "if he'd but stayed home today none of this would have come to pass". (PS a cookie to the Civil War buff who can ID that quote). As it is, emptying the gun, leaving, getting another gun, shooting the still prostrate guy who was probably dieing anyway? That makes me look bad. I felt sorry for the guy at first. Now, I 'm just annoyed with him. Am I alone here?
FQ13
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No.
That makes me look bad. I felt sorry for the guy at first. Now, I 'm just annoyed with him. Am I alone here?
FQ13
No.
In SD you shoot to save yourself, not execute.
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Morality aside , if you are going to do that don't do it in front of your own camera. ::)
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Or lose the tape, come on.
FQ13- Wasnt that Longstreet that said that.
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I swore I wasn't going to chime in here in more than in a light hearted raised eyebrow kind of way. Folks say I get a bit righteous sometimes and they're right. I'm trying to fight that, so bear with me. But the more I think about it, the more this guy bugs me as he makes us all look bad. When I got called to jury duty I joked "I hope its an SD shooting, it'll be the easiest defense case ever". Well, not here. Emptying your gun even after he's down, that's a case of nerves. Even if its obviously a case of you being pissed at a guy robbing YOUR store, as a juror, I'm going to say tie goes to the runner, or to wax literary, "if he'd but stayed home today none of this would have come to pass". (PS a cookie to the Civil War buff who can ID that quote). As it is, emptying the gun, leaving, getting another gun, shooting the still prostrate guy who was probably dieing anyway? That makes me look bad. I felt sorry for the guy at first. Now, I 'm just annoyed with him. Am I alone here?
FQ13
You are not alone at all. His act was premeditated murder with slight mitigation due to the "heat" of the moment...past moment...
But, remember that jerk driving the Mini and confronted you? You weren't carrying at the time, but say you were and you had shot him to defend yourself and your mother. And say, he got lucky and you hit him high and left in his right shoulder. Put him down but he would live. And also say that as he lays there waiting for the ambulance, he looks at you with eyes filled with hate and says "I can get a gun too. I'll be back."
Not that it went down exactly like that in this shooting, but in some neighborhoods, the intent to retaliate is the default action, expected and "righteous".
In your hypothetical case, would the thoughts of "finishing the job" right now enter your mind?
He knows where to find you. He knows where to find your mother. He gets to pick the time with more care next time.
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You are not alone at all. His act was premeditated murder with slight mitigation due to the "heat" of the moment...past moment...
..........
He knows where to find you. He knows where to find your mother. He gets to pick the time with more care next time.
I would not call it premeditated. Intentional perhaps; but planned and plotted for premeditation I don't think with the physiological things going on it can be called premeditation...whether the law in a particular state says it is or not. You'd have to live and be prosecuted by that law, but it may not mirror true life from fact of instance.
If a person didn't grow up in or live around a world where retaliation is a certainty with some, then finishing the job may ring hollow and really bend a kink in one's view of morality. But if you know players and know people who have disappeared then things get muddy....a jury of your peers takes on a very real meaning that is not mainstream to a lot of people. Might not be reasonable "in our world" but it may make total sense in "another world".
You'd have to weigh the consequences of possible prosecution vs. some level of certainty you'd get whacked while you weren't looking in the future. What would be really hard to divine is when those "worlds" overlap.
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I would not call it premeditated. Intentional perhaps; but planned and plotted for premeditation I don't think with the physiological things going on it can be called premeditation...whether the law in a particular state says it is or not. You'd have to live and be prosecuted by that law, but it may not mirror true life from fact of instance.
If a person didn't grow up in or live around a world where retaliation is a certainty with some, then finishing the job may ring hollow and really bend a kink in one's view of morality. But if you know players and know people who have disappeared then things get muddy....a jury of your peers takes on a very real meaning that is not mainstream to a lot of people. Might not be reasonable "in our world" but it may make total sense in "another world".
You'd have to weigh the consequences of possible prosecution vs. some level of certainty you'd get whacked while you weren't looking in the future. What would be really hard to divine is when those "worlds" overlap.
+1
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Premeditated might be a slippery concept.
If someone angers in an establishment and you go out to the parking lot, get your gun and come in and shoot them dead, there could be a case for premeditation.
The pharmacist did much the same thing. Didn't have to walk as far but he did go get a gun just to kill the guy.
Part of my "pre thinking" about self defense scenarios is about that part of the aftermath and how I will deal with my "inclination" to want to finish the job. I just don't like the need to give the bad guy a second chance to take me out.
Don't take this to mean I would do more than stop the immediate threat, but I would be aware of that part of the aftermath if the bad guy walks away.
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Thats the thing. If "He started it and I was afraid he'd come back and kill me" was a defense, every fight would be to the death. There has to be a point where the law of the jungle stops and the law of the land takes over. To me, its when the BG is helpless on the ground.
FQ13
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Yeah....
From sometime while I was in High School, I started thinking about this and pretty much came to the conclusion that if I get in a fight I will be fighting like it is to the death. I didn't get in fights, maybe because I tended to to what I needed to avoid them and maybe because I was 6'2", fast and strong....don't know about how tough I was.
When we consider carrying, we all think about when we will use our weapon in self defense and we pretty much decide it is when there is no other choice, when it is a kill or be killed (or severely injured if you are lucky) situation.
Each incident where you resort to your weapon has become fight to the death if need be. Not saying it has to be just that it always starts that way...at least for me it would.
Trick for me is knowing I'll be thinking that way and planning on how to deal with it when the time comes.
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I've always considered any fight as a potentially life threating situation for me, but not a fight to the death. That means that I will use any and all means at my disposal to stop my attacker. If that means he dies, so be it. If he is stopped before he dies, that's fine too. If they survive and want a rematch, then that will be a fight to the death.
I've had my life threatened before. That did not give me the right (legal of moral) to kill them in cold blood because off something they might do. Mostly is was tough guy talk - but I did believe one or two.
What this guy did was totally without justification.