The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: billt on July 26, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
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Does anyone own and shoot one? I'm toying with the idea of getting one in the future, but I've heard they can be somewhat temperamental as far as ammo, and reliable functioning. Also I've heard they can be finicky with magazines. Springfield Armory makes a really nice Stainless model, and Rock Island Armory also makes them in a couple of different configurations.
The ammo cost is a big plus with them. For someone who really enjoys shooting a 1911, you can do a lot more of it in 9 MM, than with .45 ACP. It is also substantially cheaper to handload for. I've heard nothing but good about the Rock Island guns. Everyone I've talked to who owns one has nothing but praise for both the quality, as well as the functionability of them. Some people shy away from them because they are made in the Philippines, but many of the current line of Springfield 1911's are made in Brazil by Imbel.
Armscor who manufacturers the Rock Island Armory line is known as one of the top firearms manufacturers in the world. I have also heard that the Philippine Army is outfitted with 1911's built by Armscor. They sure as hell represent a fantastic value for the money. Most are priced in the high $300.00 range for the standard Mil-Spec version, to the mid $400.00 price point for the Tactical Models that have the goodies like a skeletonized hammer, and Novak sights.
Anyway, I just wondered if anyone on the board has some 9 MM 1911 experience they could pass along, good or bad. Bill T.
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I have a Para-Ordnance p-18. I love it. 22 rds of 9mm if you put on the extended base plate. It is one of the older guns but still has all the bells and whistles. I have never had any reliability problems with it. With the current price of ammo and components it has become one of my go to guns when I hit the range. And 9mm in a full size steel 1911 makes for some fun shooting.
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Just about every manufacturer makes them. I have two Kimber 9mm 1911s - a Tactical Pro II and a Target Custom II. I run Kimber magazines in both of them and both have been flawless performs for me. Both are more accurate than I am. The only problem I've experienced so far has been with the Tactical Pro. When I let other people at the range shoot it I almost have to threaten physical violence to get it back. ;)
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Bah Humbug !
The only real 1911 is a .45 ACP, and the only real .45 ACP is a 1911 !
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Bah Humbug !
The only real 1911 is a .45 ACP, and the only real .45 ACP is a 1911 !
For the most part I agree......BUT, I would really like to have a Springfield EMP in .40.......just for deep concealment.
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For the most part I agree......BUT, I would really like to have a Springfield EMP in .40.......just for deep concealment.
Sacriledge !!!!! If St. John the Browning had wanted his pistol in freak calibers he would have designed it that way !!!!!!
;D
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Just to stir the pot a bit more Bill, what about a Browning High Power? If John Browning had wanted to make a 9mm......oh, wait, he did. ;)
And its a darn fine one too. My only beef is the mag disconnect safety. Other wise, pretty much what you'd get if you designed a 1911 for 9mm rather than trying to retro-fit one for a different caliber. Just sayin'. ;D
FQ13
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Just to stir the pot a bit more Bill, what about a Browning High Power? If John Browning had wanted to make a 9mm......oh, wait, he did. ;)
And its a darn fine one too. My only beef is the mag disconnect safety. Other wise, pretty much what you'd get if you designed a 1911 for 9mm rather than trying to retro-fit one for a different caliber. Just sayin'. ;D
FQ13
Well, at least he started on it............ ;)
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FQ, just pop out 1 pin and the mag safety is disabled AND the Mags will drop free after that.
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Take a close look at the STI Spartan also. I'm looking at the EMP in 9mm myself.
Richard
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I've had a Kimber Pro Carry II in 9mm for about 3 years now and countless rounds thru it. I can feed it steel case, brass, fmj, hp, you name it and it eats it like a champ. Also I run the factory mag and MecGar mags (both made by mecgar) with no problems. Never a problem except trying to get it back at the range from friends and family as well!!!
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Hmmmm, who designed the 1911 super 38?
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Bah Humbug !
The only real 1911 is a .45 ACP, and the only real .45 ACP is a 1911 !
Well I thought I had posted along this thought but I guess I forget to click on <POST>
I'm not a 1911 addict, but to me anything other than .45ACP is just not right.
Now, about the second half of Tom's quote: Real men shoot .45ACP in wheel guns. Either a Model 25 or 625.
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Well I thought I had posted along this thought but I guess I forget to click on <POST>
I'm not a 1911 addict, but to me anything other than .45ACP is just not right.
Now, about the second half of Tom's quote: Real Girly men who can't handle .45 Colt shoot .45ACP in wheel guns. Either a Model 25 or 625.
Why bother when you can have .45 Colt in a revolver?
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I've had a Kimber Pro Carry II in 9mm for about 3 years now and countless rounds thru it. I can feed it steel case, brass, fmj, hp, you name it and it eats it like a champ. Also I run the factory mag and MecGar mags (both made by mecgar) with no problems. Never a problem except trying to get it back at the range from friends and family as well!!!
I'm finding the same thing with 9 MM 1911's as I do with Glocks. The people who have them love them, and the people who hate them don't. As far as all of this stuff about, "The .45 ACP is what it was designed for!", most all semi's today shoot all 3 of the most popular calibers. 9 MM, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. Even the Browning Hi-Power now comes in .40. All of the H&K semi's, as well as the Glocks and XD's all have caliber choices. And if you think about it why shouldn't they? It's common sense.
As long as reliability isn't effected there is no reason not to have a diversification of calibers avaliable in a given platform. Even Luger tried to sell his design to the United States military in .45 ACP. I believe the only one that exists is currently regarded as the most valuable pistol in the world. I already have 4, 1911's, all of them in .45 ACP. It would be nice to have something different, not to mention more cost effective to shoot. The 9 MM is still very affordable, yet delivers enough punch as not to be boring after 50 rounds or so like a .22 gets to be at times. The 9 MM is a much better performer today than it was 30 years ago with the modern defensive ammunition that is currently avaliable from just about any manufacturer. It's reason enough for me at least to own one. Bill T.
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I'm on board with a lot of billt's points of view. But, the only reason .40 exists is the market was saturated with 9mm, and .45. So how do you move product? Compromise them both and market it as "the best of both worlds". At it's heart, that's ALL .40 is. A compromise. If you mix shi# and gold, all you've got is a shiny turd. BUT, when the gun magazines and tv shows talk about nothing else, weak minded buyers are suckered right in.
Why's 9mm not completely extinct? In a word. Movies! Actors are typically the type to be intimidated by .45's behavior when fired. Then ninja's see their favorite actor using it, and walla! Sale complete! Evidence to those who wonder how many movie ninja's there are in the world opposed to rational thinking persons seriously concerned with practical self defense. My favorite thing to hear is "Well, my 9mm holds 17 rounds! Your .45 hold what? 10?" You go ninja! SERIOUSLY, what is the scenario where you need even 10 rounds???? Your thinking of movie scenes already aren't you? ;D ;D ;D
All that said. Yeah, I'm tempted to buy a 9mm just because billt is 100% right. While I LOVE it, .22 gets pretty boring at the range after a few magazines worth. And everybody likes a bigger "BOOM"! Do I wanna burn through 500 rounds of .45acp every trip to the range? HECK YEAH!!! Wait, It's not worth having to get a second mortgage on my house to fund. :'(
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Before you go trashing the 9mm remember that it was developed about the same time as the .45ACP.
While it may have been developed with different criteria in mind longevity makes one just as valid as the other.
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Does anyone own and shoot one?
Is that called a Browning High Power? ;D
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Remember the French "Le Car"? There were also amazing Porsches made in that era. Timeline just doesn't matter here.
Almost any real world application is going to get into is better served by .380acp, or .45acp than 9mil. Sure, there is that 1 chance you'll need to shoot 22 bad guys through the windshield of a speeding car tommarow. But I'm willing to accept that I will be under armed in that scenario, and probably just run! ;D ;D ;D
Is .45 perfect for every realistic application? Not in my opinion. That's why you buy a LCP for every member of your family!
Ruger, you can pm me for the address of where to send my royalty checks for that one. ;)
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But, the only reason .40 exists is the market was saturated with 9mm, and .45. So how do you move product? Compromise them both and market it as "the best of both worlds". At it's heart, that's ALL .40 is. A compromise.
The .40 is the one thing besides revolvers Smith & Wesson got right. At least from a marketing standpoint. When the FBI got the living crap shot out of them in the 1986 Miami shootout, they decided to go to 10 MM auto's as a replacement to the revolvers many of their agents were carrying at the time. After they were outfitted with the new 10 MM round, many were having a lot of difficulty shooting and qualifying with it. Especially female agents. So they went to a reduced power 10 MM round that gave them better control.
S&W saw this and got the idea of shortening the 10 MM and wah la, the .40 S&W was born. All it was is a sort of "10 MM Special". But it is controllable, or at least more so than the 10 MM with full power loads. I don't shoot the .40 because when you get right down to it you get twice the recoil with only a 10% gain in muzzle energy over a similar loaded 9 MM.
I have nothing "against" the .40 S&W, it's just there isn't enough of a gap to fill between a high performance 9 MM and a .45 ACP any longer with all of the excellent high performance, self defense ammo on the market today. But guns for it sell like hot cakes. And when you're in the gun business, that's all that matters. Bill T.
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It was another example of an equipment solution to a training failure.
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There is a lot of different chamberings in the 1911 type platform. 762x25 .38 super 9mm etc if your thought is to shoot cheap get a 762x25 conversion you cant shoot much cheaper than that , and that round is no slouch in the defense catagorie either.
WAIT...WAS THAT ..................................JOHN TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE...................... :P
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There is a lot of different chamberings in the 1911 type platform. 762x25 .38 super 9mm etc if your thought is to shoot cheap get a 762x25 conversion you cant shoot much cheaper than that , and that round is no slouch in the defense catagorie either.
WAIT...WAS THAT ..................................JOHN TURNING OVER IN HIS GRAVE...................... :P
From the prices I've seen in places like "Cheaper than Dirt" or The Sportsman's guide", the only things you can shoot cheaper are .22 and pellets.
Hmmmm, who designed the 1911 super 38?
I really have no idea. I will admit that if I were to buy a 1911 in non .45 it would be either a Super.38, for "historic/collector purposes, or a 10mm just cuz.
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Hmmmm, who designed the 1911 super 38?
I could be wrong, but I believe it was Colt. All of the 30's "Motorized Bandits" said, "If you want to stop the cops, get yourself one of those new Colt Super .38 guns!" This was because with steel core bullets, (I believe at the time they were loaded by Remington in a round called the "Hi-Way Master"), they could take out a car engine block. Clyde Barrow loved the round, and the gun, and contributed many of his get aways to how well it stopped the cop cars of the day. Bill T.
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It was DESIGNED for cops to penetrate body armor and car bodies, It never really caught on for Dept. issue, it was considered a "pro's gun", but most civilians weren't professional shooters, and since Dept's didn't want to go to the extra expense it wound up being used by more crooks than cops.
It kind of faded away with the introduction of the .357, and the post war flood of surplus .45's made it kind of pointless.
It seems to have hung on in competition though.
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This from Sept. 1995 Gun Test magazine.762x25 CZ 1952 and a TT Russian
at 15 feet velocity 1420 -1468 muzzle energy was 381-407
Im not a fan of either pistol but the round is very good.
I would go with this in a 1911 platform.
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I haven't heard mention of .45GAP or .357SIG in any of this discussion.
My 2 favorite rounds........................ oh, we're talk 1911's, not Glocks. ::)
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I haven't heard mention of .45GAP or .357SIG in any of this discussion.
My 2 favorite rounds........................ oh, we're talk 1911's, not Glocks. ::)
Why run a .357sig when you can get the real deal in a 1911(ish) platform?
http://coonaninc.com/ (http://coonaninc.com/)
(http://www.coonaninc.com/userfiles/image/splash.jpg)
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.357's cute. Lots of flash, but when the 1911 big dogs step off the porch their carry'n.
http://grizzlypistol.blogspot.com/2009/02/mark-iv-grizzly-44-magnum-pistol.html (http://grizzlypistol.blogspot.com/2009/02/mark-iv-grizzly-44-magnum-pistol.html) ;)
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I haven't heard mention of .45GAP or .357SIG in any of this discussion.
My 2 favorite rounds........................ oh, we're talk 1911's, not Glocks. ::)
DUH , 45 GAP you must be kidding , are you one of plastic pistol people? I can dig the .357 sig not the gap
yep were talking real pistols. ;D
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DUH , 45 GAP you must be kidding , are you one of plastic pistol people? I can dig the .357 sig not the gap
yep were talking real pistols. ;D
YES, I'm kidding.........................
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Why run a .357sig when you can get the real deal in a 1911(ish) platform?
http://coonaninc.com/ (http://coonaninc.com/)
.357's cute. Lots of flash, but when the 1911 big dogs step off the porch their carry'n.
http://grizzlypistol.blogspot.com/2009/02/mark-iv-grizzly-44-magnum-pistol.html (http://grizzlypistol.blogspot.com/2009/02/mark-iv-grizzly-44-magnum-pistol.html) ;)
Wimpy little girly man guns
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/model1_50gi.shtml
;D
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Wimpy little girly man guns
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/model1_50gi.shtml
;D
And only three grand. :o ::)
FQ13 who would prefer six Rock Island plain jane models. ;)
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there are only 3 calibures that are 9 mm allowed in a 9 mm...
38 super
9x23 win mag
9 x25 dillon.
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I'd like an 18 shot Para rechambered for 9x23 Winchester with a +2 baseplate. 8)