The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on August 06, 2011, 12:03:09 PM
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RIP warriors........may they never be forgotten.
AP sources: Crash kills members of SEAL Team 6
Last Modified: Saturday, Aug. 6, 2011 - 9:31 am
WASHINGTON -- The Associated Press has learned that more than 20 Navy SEALs from the unit that killed Osama bin Laden were among those lost in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.
The operators from SEAL Team Six were flown by a crew of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. That's according to one current and one former U.S. official. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because families are still being notified of the loss of their loved ones.
One source says the team was thought to include 22 SEALs, three Air Force air controllers, seven Afghan Army troops, a dog and his handler, and a civilian interpreter, plus the helicopter crew.
The sources thought this was the largest single loss of life ever for SEAL Team Six, known as the Naval Special Warfare Development Group.
Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/06/3820793/ap-sources-crash-kills-members.html#ixzz1UGjU6SUd
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Payback from the Pakastani's?
Surface to Air....someone supplied it.
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Payback from the Pakastani's?
Surface to Air....someone supplied it.
If that particular helicopter was targeted because of the particular troops on board, there has been more supplied than the weapon used to bring it down.
Someone must have supplied the "flight plan" for that missile launcher to have been in the right place at the right time.
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It was most likely due to maintenance shortages, and flying conditions.
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More here:
http://www.wthr.com/story/15221078/afghan-helicopter-crash-kills-31-american-soldiers
U.S. officials tell The Associated Press that they believe that none of the Navy SEALs who died in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan had participated in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, although they were from the same unit that carried out the bin Laden mission.
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A senior administration official says the helicopter that crashed Saturday carrying 31 U.S. special operations forces and seven Afghan soldiers was apparently shot down by insurgents in Afghanistan.
It was the highest number of American casualties recorded in a single incident in the decade-long war. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the crash is still being investigated.
President Hamid Karzai sent his condolences to President Barack Obama, according to a statement issued by his office.
The Taliban claims to have brought the helicopter down with a rocket attack, but they have been known to make exaggerated claims in the past.
NATO says there "was enemy activity in the area."
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No conspiracy, no spies needed.
http://news.yahoo.com/nato-airstrike-kills-8-afghan-civilians-police-051203129.html
KABUL (Reuters) - A NATO helicopter crashed during a battle with the Taliban in Afghanistan, killing 31 U.S. soldiers and seven Afghans, the Afghan president said on Saturday, the deadliest single incident for foreign troops in 10 years of war.
More at link, including US confirmation it was shot down.
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Remember folks that in Afghanistan the helicopters have to fly THROUGH, not over, valleys and passes. You can shoot laterally at them. An RPG will do the job on something as big and slow as a Chinook. No Paki support needed. Take an approach route. Station a guy with a sat phone or a radio and a pair of binocs there. At a narrow point, station a team with RPGs and machine guns. Post A calls post B, they set up and fire. All very low tech and very effective. Remember, they've been doing this since 1979.
FQ13.
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FQ is right on this. The Muj used to down Russian Hinds by shooting down on them.
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FQ is right on this. The Muj used to down Russian Hinds by shooting down on them.
Uh, no, not even close. The Hinds were greatly feared as they were so heavily armored that they could not easily or even frequently be shot down with small arms. It was not until the Stingers arrived from the US that the Hind threat was neutralized.
And DEVGRU or Seal Team 6 or whatever they call themselves do not participate in "ordinary" battles unless one develops around them ala Mogadishu. These guys were in a chopper heading someplace, perhaps training, perhaps not. The battle that the Yahoo article references may have been incidental or a diversion.
For reference, do not believe anything in the MSM, especially first reports. Even long after the fact things like the Time magazine article on the killing of OBL that appeared last week (?) is now viewed as complete - let me repeat that, complete - conjecture, since no one from DEVGRU or Seal Team 6 or whatever was interviewed. It is all 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand information, i.e. conjecture.
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It was most likely due to maintenance shortages, and flying conditions.
And based upon past stories on airplane/helicopter crashes in the military, I think this is a very plausible explanation.
Which sounds better:
A. The helicopter carrying the elite Navy Seal Team 6 was shot down by enemy fire, killing all on board.
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B. The helicopter carrying the elite Navy Seal Team 6 crashed during an operation due to lack of maintenance and poor flying conditions, killing all on board.
As much as I would like to put on my aluminum foil hat here, believe me it's not too far away (;D), I think Tom's explanation could be the right one....
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Path, First off, while the Stingers made a significant difference in the odds, prior to their introduction several Hinds were shot down with heavy machine guns either by targeting the oil coolers located approximately where the red star was painted on the fuselage, or by targeting the rotor hub as they flew down valleys.
Second "Naval Special Warfare Development Group" is the entire "SEAL" program. SEAL is a nickname like "Frogmen" or "Green Berets". Team 6 is just one specialized group with in a much larger organization.
And based upon past stories on airplane/helicopter crashes in the military, I think this is a very plausible explanation.
Which sounds better:
A. The helicopter carrying the elite Navy Seal Team 6 was shot down by enemy fire, killing all on board.
-OR-
B. The helicopter carrying the elite Navy Seal Team 6 crashed during an operation due to lack of maintenance and poor flying conditions, killing all on board.
As much as I would like to put on my aluminum foil hat here, believe me it's not too far away (;D), I think Tom's explanation could be the right one....
FA, I posted that before I had found any other news stories about the incident. It was an assumption on my part in response to the more paranoid theories posted here.
Having found other news stories confirming a shoot down I will not question them with out some other evidence.
I will however continue to point out that the true reason for the failure of the rescue mission to Tehran in 79 was that dem budget cuts left the military with almost no maintenance budget, this is based on my own personal experience.
The mission was aborted before the crash ever occurred because the helo's did not have proper filters to handle the conditions they encountered and to many were forced to turn back, there were not enough left to perform the mission.
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Not to argue Tom but SEAL is an acronym for "Sea, Air and Land"...not a nickname.
However we lost these fine men, the Seal team, Flight Crew and Airmen is a tragedy that is costly to the American Military.
God Bless the United States Fighting Forces!
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Tim, You should read Commander Dick Marcinko's first book, "Red Cell", he founded Team 6.
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First off SEAL is a nickname. The units are Naval Special Warfare Teams/NSW Group. NSW Development Group (DevGru) is the team tasked for special projects.
If the MH-47 was from 160 SOAR there is NO way it was mechanical OR pilot error. They are the best pilots and the best equiped unit in the Army.
The aircraft was more than likely a target of opportunity. First bird comes in and the troops are engaged then a second bird comes in to assist and is targeted. They've done it before. RPG in the tailrotor took down Super 64 (160 SOAR) in the Mog- Blackhawk Down.
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Everybody remembers Super 64 because of Mike Durant, the pilot who survived, and Shugart and Gordan who got posthumous CMH . Most have no clue that Super 64 was the 2nd chopper shot down that day and a 3rd was forced to crashland near the beach.
"If the MH-47 was from 160 SOAR there is NO way it was mechanical OR pilot error. They are the best pilots and the best equiped unit in the Army."
JNevis, that doesn't mean crap. If there are no parts, you can not replace worn ones no matter how good you are.
I do not mean to cast aspersions on the guys doing the job, they don't control the money.
I could tell you stories from the carter years that would make you cry.
Thank God for Reagan and the 2 Bush's, other wise our troops would be walking to battle with pointy sticks.
If they could even row to the war zone.
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http://www.sealswcc.com/
Right from the website....SEAL = Sea, Air and Land...
Clip..."SEALs take their name from the environments in which they are trained to operate: sea, air and land. Their small highly trained teams usually work quietly at night conducting some of the nation's most important missions. SEALs are constantly deployed throughout the world to protect national interests. "