The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on August 13, 2011, 04:09:19 AM
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Ok so long story short, one of my guys got a red light ticket, and not one that was just barely running it, he ran it big time.
Now this guy is a decent worker, nothing special. He shows up on time and does his job.
There is a list a mile long of people that could fill his slot np, but they would need a few weeks of training. Which means I have a few weeks of not doing what I normally do= about $10k down the drain. On the other hand, this guy is a big liabilty should he hit some one. I've got mixed feelings on this.
If I was going to lay off people with out cuase, it would be a no brainer he would get a pink slip. This would be for cuase which changes things drasticly. Not only does it make it a big headache( they always go apply for unemployement, which means I have to fight it), but now I have to replace him/ train the replacment.
If it had been a ticket handed out by a cop it would also change things. Its very clear in the hand book moving violations= check, but this is not actually a moving violation, its just a fine.
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Something else, like a written warning that he has to sign. Next time, he gets fired and let him know it. Give him a second chance, save yourself the cost of hiring and training, and protect yourself against his possible future unemployment claim with written documentation.
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I don't think, by itself, warrant firing. We all screw up sometimes.
Three steps.
Punishment
Remedial Training
Replacement Training
Some form of punishment is in order. I don't know if you can dock pay or not, but that would be one. Probably equal to the fine, so it cost him double. Another punishment would be something embarrassing, like having someone else ride with him and observe and report for a week.
For liability purposes, you know you have a potential problem and you need to take steps that would show some future jury you were trying to correct it. Can you send him to a one day remedial drivers school? Or just pay a certified/licensed driving instructor to give him lessons for a day? Or how about a DUI driving course? I assume he wasn't DUI, but what they usually teach is defensive driving. Also think about bringing in a defensive driving instructor and make everybody take a 1/2 day course. That would embarrass the employee cause he was the one that made everyone sit through the course.....plus it shows you were serious about your staff being safety conscience.
Lastly, get working on training a replacement. Not only does that put this employee on notice he is replaceable, but then you will someone ready to step into his role in the future.
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Talk to him about it. Let him know that the next incident will result in termination. Make him pay the fine.
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Pick one of the above...
Heck, I blew through a light the other day by accident, my wife pointed it out too me. Granted, where I live, I was pretty much the only person on the road but it's still wrong and I'm paying closer attention as I've not had a violation since June of 1985!
A ticket here can cost you for 5-7 years on insurance increases and surcharges. The fine is only the beginning.
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Talk to him about it. Let him know that the next incident will result in termination. Make him pay the fine.
thats actually a big no-no. I could go to court and fight the claim, saying I was not the driver, but here is the catch, I have to turn over the person that was, which inturn since he was on the clock it will get kicked back to me.
Its not a cheap fine, its $572.
As far as a driving class, 23 employees( yeah we have gotton that big in les then 8 months) at 4 hours each+ the cost of the class... lets just say it would be cheaper to fire him and train some one else, by ALOT
if legally it was a moving violation he would be gone, but its not legally a moving violation in CA.
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The thought of firing a guy over a traffic ticket entered your mind...
Unless there is something else afoot here your not mentioning. WOW. Now I see why everyone here says your a total dick. ::)
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The thought of firing a guy over a traffic ticket entered your mind...
Unless there is something else afoot here your not mentioning. WOW. Now I see why everyone here says your a total dick. ::)
Actually its a very common practice. Most trucking companys have it. You have to understand, he is rolling about 80k worth in fragile electronics and truck. Not to mention the workmens comp costs and insurance. No BS one accident becuase of some one doing something stupid in your truck can shut you down and cost you every thing you own, seen it more then once.
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:-\
I've managed a small department (only 6-7 guys) for a long time now and seen many guys from other departments beg and plead to work for me instead of for their particular manager. Only because I don't micro manage. Yet I've more than doubled production over the former manager who was a "hard a## prick". If your guys aren't lazy turds, happy workers are hard workers. They take pride in their work, and what others think of them and their department.
It's not my place to judge a trucking company situation, but everytime I make a decision on something like this I remove any personal feelings about that employee from the factor and consider what I'd think as fair if I were in his shoes and anyone else were in mine. Third offense, sure. Ditch the guy. But right now, consider the job market your forcing him and his family into. :-\
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Now that this is public he has to be fired or put through a corrective training course. This information is too easy to discover. So, if there is an accident that is no fault of you or your employees and it comes out you did not remove or train the offender you'll pay hell in court. There is a very good chance this information posted on the board could be used to form the tipping point that throws reason out.
Bottom line, if there is a future accident failure to remove the employee...or put him through a corrective driving course...opens you up to additional liability and a "pattern" that, though it may not actually exist, will be shown in court against you.
Sux, but that's how it is. Spend money on training one and you'll need to do it for the next one or create a written policy for termination that did not exist in this time period or that was modified after this incident.
Now, training can be tailored to your needs and does not have to be a "big box" provider. There are a lot of mom and pop guys who come onsite...employee cost for non-productive time is higher than the mom and pop stopping by. A good friend, now deceased, used to train oilfield personnel for all sorts of exposure, including automotive. You may want to start in the oilfield world because those guys are very mobile and can tailor an effective program that may cover you simply with giving the employees study materials to take home and then come in and take a 15 minute test. Sounds like a sham perhaps...but will be as good as gold in a future court case.
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single guy in his 20s, has a MBA from UCLA... in this econ, that degree is only useful as toilet paper and he knows it. What I'm hung up on, is its not a moving violation. If it was... they were prewarned about them in the handbook and paper worked they signed at the time of hiring. The check would already be made out and 1st thing monday morning he would be getting it.
No where does it say a non moving violation ticket will get you fired( but I can think of a few parking tickets that would)
reguardless the hand book/ paper work is going to be edited to fix it and it will be brought up in on monday morning meeting.
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Now that this is public he has to be fired or put through a corrective training course. This information is too easy to discover. So, if there is an accident that is no fault of you or your employees and it comes out you did not remove or train the offender you'll pay hell in court. There is a very good chance this information posted on the board could be used to form the tipping point that throws reason out.
Bottom line, if there is a future accident failure to remove the employee...or put him through a corrective driving course...opens you up to additional liability and a "pattern" that, though it may not actually exist, will be shown in court against you.
Sux, but that's how it is. Spend money on training one and you'll need to do it for the next one or create a written policy for termination that did not exist in this time period or that was modified after this incident.
Now, training can be tailored to your needs and does not have to be a "big box" provider. There are a lot of mom and pop guys who come onsite...employee cost for non-productive time is higher than the mom and pop stopping by. A good friend, now deceased, used to train oilfield personnel for all sorts of exposure, including automotive. You may want to start in the oilfield world because those guys are very mobile and can tailor an effective program that may cover you simply with giving the employees study materials to take home and then come in and take a 15 minute test. Sounds like a sham perhaps...but will be as good as gold in a future court case.
if he stays he will be going thru traffic school and/or he will be a ride along employee only. that was already determeined.
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TAB,
The NMA, National Motorists Association, protects the rights of motorists and they are staunchly against Red Light Cameras.
They have shown that the companies who run the cameras are often given the ability to adjust the timing of the red lights and they do so to maximize violations by reducing the length of the yellow light, making it very easy to enter the intersection on the red.
This practice does much to INCREASE accidents along with ticket revenue.
You might want to check out there take on Red Light Cameras here http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/objections
And anyone might want to check them out overall here http://www.motorists.org/
Lots of info on how speed limits are set in violation of highway engineering standards, again to increase revenue while sacrificing safety. Some Legal defense advice/assistance available also.
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BTW, the reason it is a fine instead of a ticket is because it may not hold up in court. The defendant cannot possibly question the witness to his "alleged" offense.
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If you have an "Employee Handbook" you are supposed to have a documented disciplinary policy. If it is not stated that running a red light is grounds for firing then you have to go through the process.
Since he's an OK worker, I would say nothing more than 3 days off and no more driving.
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If I were the employee I think I would be looking for a job even I'm not terminated. Now I have a boss who has a hard-on for me, and nothing I do from here will ever be right.
TAB, no offense, but I can see where this is heading. You want to fire him, so go ahead and fire him and get it over with.
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thats actually a big no-no. I could go to court and fight the claim, saying I was not the driver, but here is the catch, I have to turn over the person that was, which inturn since he was on the clock it will get kicked back to me.
Its not a cheap fine, its $572.
CA laws sure are strange.
How does turning in the driver kick it back to you? Isn't that the REASON for turning in the actual driver in the first place?
If he commits an armed robbery while on the clock is that yours too? Doesn't make any sense....but a LOT in CA doesn't make any sense.
If he is an OK worker and it's going to cost you a buttload more money to replace him, document, punish, improve the employee and move on.
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I don't know how Ca is, but when my Dad was hauling gas vehicle violations , plates, tires etc, were on the company.
Traffic violations, speeding, rail road tracks etc were on the driver.
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He should pay the fine if he wants to keep his job.
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He should pay the fine if he wants to keep his job.
or fight it which should be, but may not be, his right. That is also why it is not a "ticket" ...no law broken, no right to a trial.
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I have made up my mind.
I'm going to call the guy into the office 1st thing. give him a choice of either taking the ride along position( and the drop in pay that goes with it), walk, or pink slip.
The hand book has already been changed, to inculude red light tickets. it will be talked about at the safety meeting as well as a having every one sign a doccument saying they have read the changes.