The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on August 16, 2011, 08:21:31 AM
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The original video was removed by the user but this 'remix' with music from the Benny Hill show is pretty much the same as the original (which I did see).
The name of the "school" is American Defense Enterprises http://www.americandefenseenterprises.com/
Talk about mall ninjas.......
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OK, that's what, six times someone crossed in front of someone else's line of fire? To quote the gunny "JESUS CHRIST! You've got to be shitting me Pyle!" ::)
FQ13
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SOOO, what are your criticisms of this video ? They look pretty damn competent to me. Take away the music and the speeded up video< I didn't see any blatant safety issues. Seems to be a mix of Krav Maga and some SWAT training.
I think you're being a little too harsh. I didn't even see anyone cover another with a muzzle.
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SOOO, what are your criticisms of this video ? They look pretty damn competent to me. Take away the music and the speeded up video< I didn't see any blatant safety issues. Seems to be a mix of Krav Maga and some SWAT training.
I think you're being a little too harsh. I didn't even see anyone cover another with a muzzle.
Look again. Maybe it is the high speed, but it looks like folks get swept, on the dropping to fire move, one of the entry moves with the anchor guy still firing, and when the woman moves laterally on the target range with someone firing behind her. There seem to be a few others, but these stand out as OMG moments. Maybe it was safe and in real time you'd have noticed. As shown however?
FQ13
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IMO its the video and the angle that its shot on, especially when the female is moving. I watched for actual fire and muzzle angle and found it was within (at least to me) tolerant discipline. You will fight the way you train, I wouldn't want to fight any of these ;D
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LOTS of sweeping.
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At least no one was standing beside the targets. ::)
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Not the worst on the internets but nothing I saw on the original would make me want to go there either.
1) I don't travel with a team of gunnies.
2) I don't do dynamic entrys
3) I would never clear a house or office with my wife.
4) I carry concealed not open carry.
5) I would try like hell never to let two threats get 180 degrees of me.
6) They go slow when I would go fast (off the X and to cover) and go fast when I would go slow, pieing corners or clearing a room.
7) They have a headbanger theme song and that just gives me a head ache.
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At least no one was standing beside the targets. ::)
Um, you didn't watch a couple of the other videos in a shoot house. :o
I have never seen a remote camera bob like theirs did. I suppose it could have been on a boom, but...
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Um, you didn't watch a couple of the other videos in a shoot house. :o
I have never seen a remote camera bob like theirs did. I suppose it could have been on a boom, but...
You're correct.
And I don't think I want to.
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Its easy to criticize a poorly shot film from the wrong angle. IMO the techniques were solid.
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SOOO, what are your criticisms of this video ? They look pretty damn competent to me. Take away the music and the speeded up video< I didn't see any blatant safety issues. Seems to be a mix of Krav Maga and some SWAT training.
I think you're being a little too harsh. I didn't even see anyone cover another with a muzzle.
Perhaps 100% of what you say about safety and technique is true. But, like the video from James Yaeger a couple years back with the photographer next to the target while a shooter was actively engaging that target with live rounds, it is a seriously bad idea to put it on teh interw3bs.
Some real mall ninja will see this and him and his buddies will put down their beers and say - let's try that! And that resultant video will end up on yootoob too. And the anti-gunners will use that video to show that guns are dangerous because of the resultant mayhem They may even spin it as these yahoos were "trained" and even with training guns kill people.
BTW, the eye sweeps after engagement were laughable - so stern, so controlled, so slow. Sorry, I just wasted three guys in a 180 scenario and the last thing I am going to be doing is standing still and sloooowwwwllllyyyy looking around. Look quickly, assess and move to cover would be more like it.
And I didn't see any krav maga, just the guy at the end pulling the knives.
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2 things I noticed that inspired a WTF, 1st The guy that shoots his targets, does that slooow scan, then puts 2 more head shots into the target to his front, if it was still a threat why did he A stop shooting it, B take his eyes off of it.
2nd, the two guys back to back then jumping around to engage the others target, .
Reminds me of this
Last tango in Glockdom ;D
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I see your point path, but it seems this has been taken out of context by someone to disparage these trainers and to poke a little fun.
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I think Yeager is a much more main stream trainer than that video makes it look like.
I know a number of officers who have trained with him and they are very proffesional. They liked his courses. They also did not shoot live rounds past each other.
John Farnam teaches there from time to time and John has no tolerance for fools or posers.
Uncle Sam used to fire machineguns over peoples heads while they crawled under barbed wire for many years and that was not considered a problem till getting folks hurt was a career ender for officers.
My first state trainer had us each draw a loaded pistol and point it at him so he could see if we had a proper sight alignment. When most of us balked he said we better get comfortable at safely pointing guns at people. If not we needed to find another line of work.
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IMy first state trainer had us each draw a loaded pistol and point it at him so he could see if we had a proper sight alignment. When most of us balked he said we better get comfortable at safely pointing guns at people. If not we needed to find another line of work.
I'd give that guy an A+ for integrity and commitment. A solid F for brains though. ;D
FQ13 Who thinks he should have said "You better get used to safely pointing a gun at OTHER people". ;)
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This is one where I agree with two angles. I agree with both 2HOW and Pathfinder.
Highly trained professionals like military and SWAT need to train in an atmosphere where they are acclimated with being in the line of fire. What I mean by that is there is always the potential in that line of work to be in that position. For example, say one officer is tending to a downed officer or civilian and another officer is providing cover. Suppose a previously unknown threat comes in and the covering officer must engage the threat by shooting over the downed people. Both officers need to be trained to be in both positions.
I don't know if this particular video provided a "positive example" or not because of the outrageous safety concerns mentioned. I don't believe I would have personally posted it for public viewing if it were mine due to reasons outlined previously by Mr. Pathfinder.
JMHO....FWIW
*(coming from a guy who had had several loaded weapons pointed in his direction........and it ain't fun)
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Watched a vid of FBI HRT doing a live fire room entry with one of their own as the hostage. Sorta gives me the willies (like this vid) but gives them an idea what it's like! Just an idea of what it takes...when the head trainer first upped he asked to be the point man on the HRT carring a shotgun!
Richard
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A Little more info of the actual members of this "elite" training academy....
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/08/firearms-training-is-too-important-to.html
Sunday, August 14, 2011
Firearms Training Is Too Important To Be Left To Mall Ninjas
Andrew at Vuurwapen Blog posted a "training" video from American Defense Enterprises as an example of unsafe gun handling. After watching the video, I just cringed to think that people actually wasted their good money on this "training". More importantly, someone is going to get killed if they try it. (Edited - A.D.E. has removed the video from YouTube.)
It also encouraged me to find out more about this "training" company. There are a lot of great training instructors and schools out there that we've all heard or read about: Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Clint Smith, Tiger McKee, Dave Spaulding and the list goes on. I had never heard of A.D.E. or American Defense Enterprises which is based in the Los Angeles area but that is why Google exists.
The motto of American Defenses Enterprises is "If you want to shoot like a professional you need to train with professionals!" Here is what they say on their Facebook page about their school:
American Defense Enterprises consists of experienced Special Ops and law enforcement instructors offering world-class training in the entire spectrum of small arms weaponry (handguns, rifles, shotguns). Whether you are an honest citizen concerned with personal safety or an operator whose life depends on proficiency with his weapon, A.D.E. instructors can train you to the highest level you wish to achieve.
American Defense Enterprises offers courses designed to teach and develop the fundamental skills necessary should a lethal confrontation arise. Those who take these courses will be trained to a substantially higher level of skill than the average police officer or military unit.
A.D.E. claims to be "Rated #1 by Homeland Security". However, as a poster on CalGuns Forum who took the time to call DHS found out, there is no such ranking or rating. (Post #25 by ZombieTactics). Can you say "false advertising"?
A.D.E. is headed by Bill Beasley. One of his former students "Sara" (post #6) claims that he was a former "Special Forces Operator" and the "REAL DEAL". Beasley is also linked him with reality TV star Spencer Pratt (The Hills) who is better known as the husband of Heidi Montag. Pratt left The Hills to work for A.D.E.'s cyber-security division according to numerous press reports. You can see Beasley in the promo video below:
A.D.E. also promotes their American Warriors Test as "the hardest, most comprehensive test of gun skills in the world today." Tam of View From The Porch has the best comment on this:
And have you seen their "American Warrior Test"? It's the ultimate test of skills. Forget a sub-5 second FAST or a 280+ on the Hackathorn Standards, it takes seven hours just to take the American Warrior Test, which is apparently almost as expensive grueling as earning a Four Weapons Combat Master ticket!
There is a long thread on the Lightfighter.Net Forum about the first video and A.D.E. That forum does have a number of members with both current and former military experience including in Special Operations. To say they are disgusted by what they see is an understatement. One of the commenters, "JAG", works at the range where this company often holds classes and has seen A.D.E. and their instructors up close and personal. He isn't impressed. He says in part:
At my "Range", there is a "company" of people that do "tactical training"... and with all the fliers, and pamphlets that they leave around the range, it doesn't take very long to notice it. One thing I noticed right away, is that one of the employees at the "Range" also wore the similar clothing of "company". I didn't think anything of it, and just focused on learning the specifics of the job. It turns out "she" is an instructor with the "company" on days when she's not working at the "range".
One day, I overheard her talking to a customer about the "company". She was bragging about stories of other people doing tactical things, how they do them wrong, and how their "company" fixes those problems. After her conversation, I started probing.
Me: "How long have you been shooting?"
Her: "Oh, only about 3 years or so..."
Me: "Wow, really? How did you get hooked up with "company"?
Her: "Well, I started shooting, and I was really good, and "owner of company" saw me, and asked me to be an instructor, so I said sure!"
Me: "Wow, that's cool..." Eek
They literally pulled her off the street and made her an instructor.... for their "military and LEO training. She had/has NO .mil or LEO training, and barely knows anything about firearms in general, forget about "tactical training". She learned on a Glock 19, so that's all she knows. All of her students shoot glocks, and that's all she really discusses... because its all she knows. It's the same with the entire "company". Red flag number 1.
While A.D.E. claims many of their instructors - no bios given - are former Special Ops, that is highly doubtful. Instead of attending BUD/S, it is more probable that many attended, as one guy on Lightfighter said, "Basic Foodcourt Demolition School."
Firearms training is serious business. It is far too serious to be left to be a bunch of mall ninjas masquerading as former SEAL/Green Beret/Spec Ops/SWAT operators. As Tam notes, there is no self-regulating accrediting body for training schools. While you can be certified as an instructor in various firearms disciplines by the NRA, that is not the same as an accreditation body for schools which still might not protect students from these ass-clowns.
The complete lack of a self-regulating accrediting body is going to bite the training industry in the ass sooner or later, and the irony is that even having one wouldn't do much good, since there is always a certain subset of trainers who would market themselves as outlaws, teaching SPECOPS SEAL Contractor Dynamic 360° Combat tactics too extreme!! for the other guys, who are a bunch of nancy milquetoasts.
In the end, it comes down to caveat emptor - buyer beware. If you are going to get training - and you should - check out the school and the instructors beforehand. And don't go to a class with A.D.E.!
UPDATE: pdb at PappaDeltaBravo provides a play-by-play analysis of everything that is wrong about the "training" shown in the first video. pdb points out just how bad - and dangerous - the training from A.D.E. really is.
UPDATE II: Grant Cunningham has a really funny comment on A.D.E. and their promo video.
I think, however, that both Tam and pdb wasted a lot of effort actually analyzing the video. They could have simply used my theorem: quality of instruction in a video is inversely proportional to the sound pressure level of the cheesy heavy metal music used on the soundtrack.
Correlation seems to be high.
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Kinda makes you go Hmmmmmm.....Don't it?
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Most companies hire the gun girls to point at the guns at SHOT... ;D
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FTA
There are a lot of great training instructors and schools out there that we've all heard or read about: Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Clint Smith, Tiger McKee, Dave Spaulding and the list goes on.
With the exception of Gunsite, all of these names are known in the industry by REPUTATION. Firearms training is DEADLY serious business, and should be advertised as such. Not with showy ads featuring loud music and choreographed moves that belong in Hollywood, not on the range.
I should clarify, Gunsite is known for its reputation also. However they are the only ones on the list that I have seen heavy advertising for. Also, their reputation isn't what I would call stellar.... ::)
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I too find the eye sweeps I see in most video's laughable. While it is a good practice to be aware of things you may have missed, I'm going to go a little faster than what they're doing. I don't want to take my eyes of the bad guys I just shot for very long, because they might not really be "down" for the count.
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I too find the eye sweeps I see in most video's laughable. While it is a good practice to be aware of things you may have missed, I'm going to go a little faster than what they're doing. I don't want to take my eyes of the bad guys I just shot for very long, because they might not really be "down" for the count.
Ditto. If your eyes are moving slower than someone else can shoot, you have an issue. PS Why are you standing still? If its still a hot scene a couple of steps back or sideways while looking (and yes you can do both) seems like a good idea. This reminds me of that Tex Grebner yahoo who shot himself. After an 8 second reload, he gave a deep and penetrating stare in all directions. Very impressive, as with baboons the lesser mall ninjas were cowed. ;D
FQ13
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When one shooter fell to the ground and another shooter behind firing live I thought it was impressive. Nice execution but I would not try that outside of military or law enforcement.
Another that had me almost biting my nails was when you had the girl running the course, a rifleman to the left firing and another male firing a handgun behind her. Again, no application outside military/law enforcement.
Not sure what the black uniforms were for? Maybe these are the folks training to come and take the guns away from the paranoid??? Just kidding.