The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: MikeO on August 17, 2011, 06:52:00 PM
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Is the USN SEAL's newest pistol (HK's HK45CT) a foot in the door for a new military pistol for everybody I mean.
It meets the specs of the last pistol attempt (the MHS/Modular Handgun System), which was a conglomeration of all that came before (FHS/Future Handgun System, SOF-CP/Special Operations Forces - Combat Pistol, JCP/Joint Combat Pistol, AFH/Air Force Handgun, AFFH/Air Force Future Handgun). All cancelled and/or suspended. I think. Hard to keep up, they kept coming and going...
With money as tight as it is, a new pistol trial could be a tough sell when we still have contract options on up to 450,000 more Berettas and up to 18 million more mags for them?
If the HK45CT is good enough for NSWDG/DEVGRU/ST6, it should be good enough for everybody else in one form or another? The HK45C could work for LE, Security, pilots, air and armor crews, etc. It could be configured DA/SA, DAO, SAO, LEM, with or w/o safety/decocker as desired.
I was issued the M15, M1911A1, M9, and M11. I've been shooting an HK45C since 2009, and I like it was well/better as all of them, and it would do all the same missions as well/better IMO.
So DOD could buy a few hundred thousand and forget about pistols for another 25 yrs or so? Or not. Legions of lawyers would start cryin'...
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Honestly I really don't understand why they don't buy Glocks in 9mm, or better yet .45 or 10mm. They are idiot proof and unbreakable. There is no safety, but the same was true of the revolvers the army carried for more than a few years. If the NYPD aren't shooting themselves I think they are soldier safe. Failing that, I'd stick with the 1911s. They are inferior to the Glock for combat in that they require more maintenance and hold fewer rounds, but that said they've done the job for 100 years and are vastly preferable to a Beretta using an FMJ 9mm. Plus we must have a ton of them in inventory. Just my .02.
FQ13
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Honestly I really don't understand why they don't buy Glocks in 9mm, or better yet .45 or 10mm. They are idiot proof and unbreakable. There is no safety, but the same was true of the revolvers the army carried for more than a few years. If the NYPD aren't shooting themselves I think they are soldier safe. Failing that, I'd stick with the 1911s. They are inferior to the Glock for combat in that they require more maintenance and hold fewer rounds, but that said they've done the job for 100 years and are vastly preferable to a Beretta using an FMJ 9mm. Plus we must have a ton of them in inventory. Just my .02.
FQ13
Not quite unbreakable. i had my g22 out a few days ago and the trigger bar broke into two pieces. I took it back where i bought because they warrenty all guns sold there. The glock repairman said he had never seen or heard of one breaking there. They didn't even have the part in stock and had to take it out of a new gun. 30 minutes in and out, should be good for several more years.
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I don't own a Glock, nor do I wish too. Nothing against them at all but it's a plastic gun, made from an injection molding process that is subject to the same problems that any casting or injection process is subjected to.
Inclusions (voids in the injected/cast materials) can form and create weak or fatigue points that are not easily found without advanced NDT (non destructive testing) techniques that are costly and time consuming.
Production lines are what they are, get the most out of them in a specified time frame or lose money. The frames are the weak point in a Glock. The slide, firing mechanism and most of the magazine are steel or stainless steel and milled to a specified tolerance. The trigger mechanism is tried and true but still subject to the weak link in the chain.
I seriously doubt that a Glock could pass the military's minimum requirements which has always required a mechanical safety whether it's actually used or not.
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P.S.
I know the HK is plastic too so the same thing goes. Stuff happens, sometimes when you don't want it too...
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As Teddy Roosevelt once remarked inspecting an 1895 Winchester in .405 caliber,....."What must an American President do to get a proper fitting rifle?.....Go to England?" :-\
Sad there is not an American Manufacturing Co. that the Military/Gov't cannot seem to deem worthy for large scale deployment.
I understand SpecOps, SEALS, Special Forces, etc,.. require a niche firearm, but on a large scale contract?
Really? America doesn't measure up for a combat pistol for the vast majority of troops that are not in a specialized units?
ex. M9 with FMJ's? Again,...Really? Good pistol,.sure, but so is an M&P .45. or a Para.
I know military contracts are HK's bread & butter, as their retail customer service stinks, IMHO, and they are top shelf pistols, as they should be, but no American contenders at all?
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Uniformity prevails in the military. It was too costly to change from the M9 to an alternate for the lions share of the troops.
The Pentagon gives the contract to the lowest bidder for the most part. Specialized troops have a different budget, always have!
If we could have produced the 1911 in 1985 for the same cost as the Beretta, I have little doubt that the 1911 would still be the standard sidearm with an increased capacity or downsized to the more NATO preferred 9 x 19 Luger cartridge.
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As far as material, nothing in Tim's post about the Glock is not also true of steel pistols.
Nothing is unbreakable, nothing is idiot proof.
The only valid complaint I have ever heard about the Glock is that some people find the grip geometry uncomfortable.
US military small arms must, by law, be produced in the US, Glock is, HK isn't.
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US military small arms must, by law, be produced in the US, Glock is, HK isn't.
Not 'zactly.
The M9s were not produced in the US until the 3rd year of the first 5 year contract. The first year they were made and assembled in Itlay, the second year made there, assembled here, the third through fifth made and assembled here (Accokeek MD). The M11 (SIG P228) was not made in the US either.
Glock and HK both have US plants making pistols and/or parts now anyway (so does SIG SAUER and FN). The HK plant in Newington NH makes HK 45s.
BTW, Beretta USA, HK USA, SIG SAUER USA, FN USA, etc are all considered "American" companies as far as awarding contracts goes. Isn't that nifty?
The Glock has been adopted w success by many other countries, but going by the specs the US military keeps asking for the last 15 yrs or so (FHS, SOF-CP, JCP, CP, AFH, AFFH, MHS programs mentioned above) they have something else in mind.
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Not 'zactly.
The M9s were not produced in the US until the 3rd year of the first 5 year contract. The first year they were made and assembled in Itlay, the second year made there, assembled here, the third through fifth made and assembled here (Accokeek MD). The M11 (SIG P228) was not made in the US either.
Glock and HK both have US plants making pistols and/or parts now anyway (so does SIG SAUER and FN). The HK plant in Newington NH makes HK 45s.
BTW, Beretta USA, HK USA, SIG SAUER USA, FN USA, etc are all considered "American" companies as far as awarding contracts goes. Isn't that nifty?
The Glock has been adopted w success by many other countries, but going by the specs the US military keeps asking for the last 15 yrs or so (FHS, SOF-CP, JCP, CP, AFH, AFFH, MHS programs mentioned above) they have something else in mind.
When did that open ? I haven't been out of the state for more than 12 hours at a time in over a decade, 3 years were living in the next town over from Newington (Exeter, where Sig is ) and this is the 1st I've heard of it.
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I was in the Air Force as a Security Police Armorer when we switched from Smith and Wesson .38 revolvers to the M9 Beretta. I liked the Beretta and had an opportunity to visit the Beretta Firearms Factory in Brescia, Italy with my NCOIC of the Armory and Operations Officer. The Beretta assigned to me was not very accurate but good enough to achieve expert marksman.
Once I got out into the civilian world I purchased my first Glock in 1992. Was overwhelmed how accurate it was straight out of the box and wished that I had it in the Air Force. Since then I have purchased 7 Glocks. Two in 9mm, 3 in .40 S&W and two in .45 ACP. Got rid of all my 9mm's and 40's and stuck with the .45's. Glock 21SF and Glock 30SF. Absolutely love them.
I think if the military was to go to another pistol, make it a .45 ACP. Can't beat that round.
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Glock doesn't seem to want to cater to the US Military in that the Glock hasn't been developed as a modular weapon to the degree HK has done with their pistols or it doesn't seem so to me.
Richard
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When did that open ? I haven't been out of the state for more than 12 hours at a time in over a decade, 3 years were living in the next town over from Newington (Exeter, where Sig is ) and this is the 1st I've heard of it.
They snuck that 70,000 sq ft facility by ya sometime in late 2008. They make rifles there too. HK has been selling small arms to the US military since at least 2005 BTW.
From a Jan 09 HK press release:
“We’ve reached a major milestone in our objective to establish a production presence in the U.S.,” said Wayne Weber, executive vice president of the U.S. business unit of Heckler & Koch. “The new HK45 pistol is the first HK product officially ‘Made in the USA’. It is our goal to strategically transfer production of select HK products to the U.S., with the HK45 Compact being the next product to come off the U.S. production line and shortly thereafter, the HK MR series rifles.”
“It is our intention for all U.S. made HK products to equal the quality and reliability of the products made in Germany,” Weber added. “By establishing American-based manufacturing, we can compliment our German production and ensure that HK can be more competitive in the U.S. and comply with government contracts requiring U.S. manufacturing. HK products made in the USA will be fully compliant with federal solicitations giving preference to domestically produced products. Additionally, it will provide a boost to the U.S. economy by creating more opportunities and business for many of our U.S. subcontractors and suppliers.”
Where the Glock 45s run into their biggest trouble w the military specs:
Ergonomics. The Modular Handgun System must accommodate the 5th to 95th percentile of users. Determination will be made based on width, length, grip circumference, location of controls, ambidextrous controls, etc.
Lottsa smaller hands in the military these days...
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They snuck that 70,000 sq ft facility by ya sometime in late 2008. They make rifles there too. HK has been selling small arms to the US military since at least 2005 BTW.
From a Jan 09 HK press release:
“We’ve reached a major milestone in our objective to establish a production presence in the U.S.,” said Wayne Weber, executive vice president of the U.S. business unit of Heckler & Koch. “The new HK45 pistol is the first HK product officially ‘Made in the USA’. It is our goal to strategically transfer production of select HK products to the U.S., with the HK45 Compact being the next product to come off the U.S. production line and shortly thereafter, the HK MR series rifles.”
“It is our intention for all U.S. made HK products to equal the quality and reliability of the products made in Germany,” Weber added. “By establishing American-based manufacturing, we can compliment our German production and ensure that HK can be more competitive in the U.S. and comply with government contracts requiring U.S. manufacturing. HK products made in the USA will be fully compliant with federal solicitations giving preference to domestically produced products. Additionally, it will provide a boost to the U.S. economy by creating more opportunities and business for many of our U.S. subcontractors and suppliers.”
I'll be darned, I don't recall hearing anything in the local press about it. Hopefully some of my former co-workers from T/C got in there.
I knew they had been selling rifles to SOCOM but I'm pretty sure they have different purchasing guidelines.
Thanks for answering my question, you aren't on here very often and I was afraid I'd have to wait .
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All of the Glock parts are not made here.
Well, they might be made here, but if they are, they are shipped overseas for the Tenifer Treatment (not a coating).
The last I heard the Tenifer process violated Environmental Laws here and had to be done elsewhere.
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I have a G21, full size railroad tie with trigger, and can attest to an oversize grip, and not the ideal grip angle... Even with large hands. However, the darn thing always goes bang, regardless of ammo. So I keep it as a holstered "go to work" sidearm in a milsurp gas mask bag.
Perhaps its a marketing issue for other companies. The bread and butter of S&W, Wilson, Para, Ruger, etc,.. are retail civilian sales. As opposed to HK.
Given the parameters of the military, that eliminates a few manufacturers not interested in large scale issue. I know the Spec Ops folks can choose literally whatever they want, and should be able to do so, I just was wondering why S&W, Wilson Combat, Kimber, Para, Ruger, etc,... may not have tried to get the M9 replaced with say a .45 caliber.
:-\
If its cost,...I wonder, as our gov't often has no issue with cost....Seems toilet seats, and hammers, were given no rationale to cost,....HK is proud of their stuff. I can't imagine the cost per pistol is that good.