The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on August 24, 2011, 08:09:32 PM
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Anyone have any experience in reloading 223 for an AR?
I've been told it takes special or different dies, but I haven't found anything in the limited manuals I have. I also do not completely trust those telling me this. I asked at a big box store I was at today, and of course all I need is the most expensive competition die set.
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Anyone have any experience in reloading 223 for an AR?
I've been told it takes special or different dies, but I haven't found anything in the limited manuals I have. I also do not completely trust those telling me this. I asked at a big box store I was at today, and of course all I need is the most expensive competition die set.
The conventional wisdom is you need small base dies to get reloads to work in a semi-auto rifle. I don't find that necessary for my AR. Most will tell you that you need to full length resize your cases. What I usually recommend is to try full length resizing and if you have a problem with feeding then go to a small base sizing die. If no feeding problems, stay with that. Manufacturer doesn't seem to mean a lot but I do prefer Hornady, RCBS, Lyman, or Redding in no particular order.
Personally I neck size for my AR and have no feed or extraction problems but I keep the cases segregated and don't use them in any but my gun.
In conclusion go with what you got. If you still need to get dies go with a good set it's worth it.
Pecos, who hopes this helped.
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I shoot reloads almost exclusively. I've been using a set of Lee dies for a long time, and had no problems. I've also got RCBS dies that I inherited from my Father-in-Law. A few thousand rounds downrange with no problems. Of course, I'm not loading for "match ammo", so I've never bought anything special for .223 .
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Make sure the cases are lubed well without being over lubed. I have had the most problems with 223 than my other reloading. I have switched to spray lube because I was getting a lot of stuck cases using my lube pad.
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Make sure the cases are lubed well without being over lubed. I have had the most problems with 223 than my other reloading. I have switched to spray lube because I was getting a lot of stuck cases using my lube pad.
Most guys I know that have probs with 223s don't sort the cases very well. you really need to go thru them and sort them very well, paying very close attention to damage. A little ding in the side of a straight walled case like the 223 can really get things stuck.
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Most guys I know that have probs with 223s don't sort the cases very well. you really need to go thru them and sort them very well, paying very close attention to damage. A little ding in the side of a straight walled case like the 223 can really get things stuck.
Uhhh Tab, I just checked a factory 223 Rem case (Hornady TAP/FPD) and one of my handloads and my caliper shows the case to be tapered. Am I measuring them wrong or something? I was taught that all bottle necked cases were tapered. Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of the term "straight wall"?
I'm still learning I guess, Pecos.
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I'm thinking the 223 alky improved. I've been a little bit distracted as of late.
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I'm thinking the 223 alky improved. I've been a little bit distracted as of late.
No ! You don't mean it TAB. ;D
Get used to it Pops. ;D
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No ! You don't mean it TAB. ;D
Get used to it Pops. ;D
I've got 10 people showing up in about a hour. Its been a f....k mad house here. I finally turned the ringer off on the phone. Yeah thats great, you called to say congrates... thanks sob you just woke my wife up.
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I've got 10 people showing up in about a hour. Its been a f....k mad house here. I finally turned the ringer off on the phone. Yeah thats great, you called to say congrates... thanks sob you just woke my wife up.
Thing that got me was it was the female relatives, who should have known better.
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Thing that got me was it was the female relatives, who should have known better.
Funny thing about the female brain.....doesn't seem to think in relative terms. ;D
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I'm thinking the 223 alky improved. I've been a little bit distracted as of late.
If you think it's a little confusing now just wait a couple years when this one starts chasing the younger ones around.
Pecos
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Another thing that helps in .223 is starting out with clean cases. I've found if they are clean they seem to resize much easier. Also, your resizing die and accompanying expander plug will last much longer. Most .223 is shot out of semi auto weapons. Sigs, AR's, Mini 14's and the like, so the cases are a little sootier. I have both RCBS Small Base resizing Dies, as well as Lee Dies. If I mike the base of the case there is no difference in the two.
Competition dies are nice, especially the RCBS models with the little "window" to drop the bullet in, but they are not necessary unless you are precision reloading for super accuracy in a bolt gun. Some of these Competition type bullet seater dies cannot be used very effectively in a progressive reloader either. Something to think about should you decide to go that route.
I'm in the middle of loading up 2,500 rounds for my AR-15's this coming Winter. I'm using mixed headstamp brass, but I've taken the time to prep it really well. It has all been resized and deprimed, trimmed to length, and all of the primer pockets have been swaged because most were military cases that had crimped in primers. The last step is to run them through my Dillon after they have received a final polish. In place of the resizing die I use a decapping die only. This assures the decapping pin will pass through the flash hole just before I seat the new primer. If there is any tumbling media, dirt, or crap in the flash hole, it will be removed. That way it takes a obstructed flash hole out of the equation, should I ever get a squib load, or a flat out misfire.
It takes a little longer to load this way, but I feel the end result is worth it. I wind up with ammo that cannot be distinguished from factory new, and shoots just as well. By resizing and depriming first, then polishing the cases, it removes all of the case lube and leaves you with clean, dry brass instead of oily, tacky cases that attract dirt like a magnet. I believe also that cleaner, polished cases will extract from semi auto weapons easier as well. Reloading is like anything else. The more time you put into it, the better the end product will be. Bill T.
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Billt,
So you tumble clean, lube, de-cap and resize, tumble again, then reload using the deprime only w/o the resizing. Is that correct?
What de-capping die do you use (supposed to be working on a power point and don't have my reloading catalogs handy)?
Thanks all for the good info!
P.S.
Most of my reloading has been done on a press I own in partnership and is at another home. My home reloading has been done by clamping my Mec 9000 to whatever surface meets my needs at the time. This weekend I am starting the process of moving a bench and setting up my Mec and new Hornady single stage up in a permanent and dedicated place. ;D
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Billt,
So you tumble clean, lube, de-cap and resize, tumble again, then reload using the deprime only w/o the resizing. Is that correct?
What de-capping die do you use (supposed to be working on a power point and don't have my reloading catalogs handy)?
Thanks all for the good info!
P.S.
Most of my reloading has been done on a press I own in partnership and is at another home. My home reloading has been done by clamping my Mec 9000 to whatever surface meets my needs at the time. This weekend I am starting the process of moving a bench and setting up my Mec and new Hornady single stage up in a permanent and dedicated place. ;D
It really depends on the starting condition of the brass I'm working with. This last batch of 2,500 I'm working on was in real good shape, but they were really dirty from being fired on dusty ground. So I first washed them in the dishwasher in zippered mesh bags, then spread them out in the Sun to dry. I then lubed and resized all of them. After that I swaged out the primer pockets on my Dillon 600 Super Swage. I then trimmed all of them to minimum overall length on my Giraud Powered Case Trimmer. It chamfers both the inside of the cases, as well as the outside as it trims them. I then gave them a final polish and cleaning in ground corn cob, Dillon Rapid Polish, and Flitz Metal Polish. This is how they turned out. I'm almost finished. I have just 400 more to reload. My load was 25.7 Grains of Hodgdon H-335 under a 55 Gr. IMI M-193 FMJBT projectile. I really like this powder because it flows through a powder measure like water. It is also very clean burning.
I use a Lee Decapping die in the Dillon when I reload. Being as the cases are already resized and deprimed, all the decapping die does is assure if a piece of ground corn cob or any other foreign matter is in the flash hole, it will be removed by the decapping pin right before I seat the new primer. It's just an added bit of insurance that takes place automatically by having the decapping die in place of an empty sizing die station. Bill T.
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/223Brass002JPG.jpg)
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/billt460/223Handloads3002JPG.jpg)
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If I can get back to earning a decent wage and the wife can find a job, your reloading system is on my list of must visits when I start going to Mesa to shoot in the winters again!
For the time being ammo and travel have given way to mortgage and health insurance :'(
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If you can keep your ....that is YOUR reloaded .223 brass separate from any other .223 brass on the range, I would highly recommend the RCBS X sizer die.
I resize/decap (for now) with the RCBS X-sizer die with its mandrel in the up position.
I use this tool from Hornady:
(http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_216602_999_01?hei=380&wid=380)
to see that I am bumping the shoulders of the cases back ever so slightly, say about two thousandths or three thousandths.
You only have to check maybe the first five cases in a run or batch to make sure everything is dialed in and locked in place. Then you can start cranking the brass through.
WHOOOOPPSS!!!
Let me back up first...for lube I use Dillon lube. I put a bunch of cases into a large ziploc bag. Open the mouth the bag up, and give the lube bottle a few pumps. Then I close up the ziplock bag, and then roll the cases around inside the bag.
Oh...yeah, before I start I will squirt some WD40 on a Qtip and swirl that up inside the resizing/decapping die just get rid of any dirt or maybe even some rust.
So yeah, just by trial and error I figure out if I have the resizing/decapping die screwed down far enough into the toolhead/press, based on what that Hornady tool tells me.
So I get a bunch resized and decapped....okay?
Then I go over to my workbench where my corded drill is clamped up tight in the vise. The drill has a trigger lock on it, so it can just run and run and run without me having to touch it. I chuck the .223 Possum Hollow Cutter in the drill, and then lock the trigger on.
Then I run a few cases into it checking it for the correct length.
Now, normally, you would be trimming your .223 brass to 1.75", but since I am using the RCBS X-sizer die as per its instructions I trim to 1.73"
This is how the Possum Hollow Cutter works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i42nDelSKf8
Okay?
So now you have a whole bunch of trimmed, resized, and decapped .223 brass.
The next step is to tackle the burr inside the case's neck.
You can do it two different ways.
1. the slacker way....tumbled the brass in corncob or walnut media for an hour or two. supposedly the medial will knock the burrs off. the problem with that method is that you need to then use a Universal Decapping Die to knock out any kernels of media stuck in the flashhole.
OR
2. You can use the same Possum Hollow Tool holder chucked in your drill still and this time take out the cutter and replace it with a handheld deburring tool, like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=volkNAxUiOo
Okay?
so now your brass has been trimmed (to 1.73"), deburred, resized, and decapped.
Now, you can just prime the case by whatever means you normally use.
then charge with powder like you normally would do (with maybe the exception of reducing the powder charge because now the case is 20 thou shorter. My reloading manual or the side of powder jug might have listed something like 24.6 grains as a starting load and then say like 27 grains for the max load. so I just picked a round number in the middle, which IIRC, was 25 grains.)
then seat the bullet like you normally would. if your bullet has a crimping cannelure, even though the case is trimmed 20 thousandths shorter, I would still seat the bullet so the case mouth lands on the cannelure.
Then crimp as you normally would (into the crimping cannelure).
Then what I do, to get all the case lube off is to tumble the loaded rounds for like a half hour.
And then use a case gauge to see if your ammo will fit into a .223 chamber.
Then stick them into one of those blue flip top lid boxes either a hundred or 50 at time. With the box on a flat surface, look across either all the headstamps or all the bullet tips to make sure all the rounds are the same height.
Then...and THIS IS THE KEY PART!!!
Somehow mark YOUR brass so that you know that it has already been trimmed to 1.73"
Now go to the range and shoot!
Collect your brass back...maybe looking for your tell tale red laundry marker stripe across the headstamps, pack up and go home.
Once home, tumble that 1.73" brass just by itself. Keep it segregated.
Stick the RCBS X-sizer small base die into your press or toolhead. Screw the mandrel down. Lube the cases like before and then decapp resize like normal.
You can watch the X-die video here:
http://www.rcbs.com/guide/#videos
It shows a cut-away X-die and how it works to keep the brass from growing.
then prime.
then charge with powder.
then seat the bullet
then crimp
then vibrate tumble the lube off.
then case gauge.
then box them up.
then stripe them with your red laundry marker across the headstamps.
then go to the range and shoot them.
collect your red striped brass back.
rinse and repeat as necessary all the while skipping the brass trimming step.
sounds like a lot of work, doesn't?
or you can just go to the gunshow and buy a case of steel cased Wolf or Bear for about 25 cents each round and forget about the headaches and logistics tail of reloading bottlenecked rifle cases.
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As I mentioned in an above post, I broke down and purchased the Giraud Power Case Trimmer a couple of years ago. It is expensive, but well worth it. Especially if you load and shoot a lot of .223 / 5.56 MM like I do. The beauty of it is that in addition to trimming the cases to + - .001 in length, it also puts a nice, burr free chamfer on both the inside, as well as the outside of the case at the same time.
This really saves a lot of time and cuts down on the steps required in one of the most boring of the reloading processes. To date I've trimmed well over 6,000 rounds with it, and the Carbide Cutter isn't even showing any signs of getting dull. Once you are properly set up it's easy to trim over 20 cases a minute if you minimize motion. I'm considering getting another in .308 as well, rather than go back and forth resetting another cutter. This is one of the most well made tools I have on my reloading bench. And much like a microwave oven, once you have one, you wonder how the hell you ever lived so long without it!
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Since I have a Dillon 650 with the case feeder, I bought the Dillon 1200 toolhead mounted trimmer. It cuts so fast and clean that a separate deburring step is not required.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLyK1UwuK3M
Yes it is loud, but I grab my iPhone, bring up the Pandora app, put my ear buds in, then put my ear muffs on over that and start cranking the .223 brass through there....while CCR and like music is coming in through the ear buds.
I don't have to handle each piece of brass, now. YAY!
I brought up the Possum Hollow Cutter above because it is a cheaper option, and not everybody has a Dillon progressive press.
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Keeping my brass separate is easy. I catch it in a nifty brass catcher I found. Hangs on the gun. I'll add the URL to this when I get downstairs.
Pecos
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at billt...
yeah, the Giraud and Gracey trimmers are nice.....
however, in my particular situation, I already have a $250 floor model drill press that sits idol 99% of the time.
I just needed a means to spin up a cutter or a trimmer, so I couldn't picture spending another $250 plus on another tool (errr....a motor basically) that would sit idol, again, for 99% of the time.
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but I got tired, literally, ....I was bored out of my mind and my fingers would hurt after a while with the Possum Hollow Cutter/Trimmer when trimming brass with it chucked in a drill.
I had some money burning a hole in my pocket, so I splurged and bought the Dillon 1200 trimmer that fits in the tool head of a reloading press, in my case a 650 with a casefeeder.
Now, no more handling each piece of brass by hand.
;D
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More than likely, most of us that reload subscribe to two magazines, The Rifle, and The Handloader. They are published by Wolfe Publishing, and are excellent. Alot of Information about handloading, etc. Very good reference material.
They recently had an article about using the RCBS Precision Mic. They are caliber specific, and as a result of that article, I purchased them for .308 win, 22-250, and 6mm remington. What they allow you to do is adjust your sizing dies to match the chambers in your rifles (rifle specific, all chambers are not the same), and then size the brass down to .002 less than the fired brass dimension. The fired case dimension is taken with the Precision Mic, and you then size the brass down to .002 less, using the mic to take the sized measurement. Its really simple, and once your die is adjusted for that rifle, you are done. Of course if you have several rifles of that caliber (I have 3), you need a die for each rifle, unless that all have the same measurements (unusual if they do).
The process is simple, and it works. What it does is allow you to NOT oversize your fired brass, and thus you will have longer brass life (more reloads). If you oversize your brass, the headspace dimension will be too small, so when your fire the round, the brass expands (as normal), and then you work the brass excessively. Neck sizing works well, but there will come a time that you will have to full length size neck sized brass, because of brass flow. I shoot 2 bolt Savages and one AR-10, all .308 win.
One thing about reloading for AR type rifles, be it .223, or .308, etc, you should taper crimp the bullets. This involves a separate die when reloading, but works well. You can purchase a RCBS die direct from RCBS. The same thing applys to any straight wall pistol round that does not crimp in a crimping groove, like 9mm, 40, 45, etc. This is necessary due to the violent loading process in an AR style rifle. It is usually NOT necessary to use small base dies for AR's, if you do this.
I have been doing this for two years now, with excellent results in group size and consistant velocities.