The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on September 06, 2011, 03:32:51 PM
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Bad boys, bad boys....Whatcha gonna do?....Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?
September 6, 2011
Moultrie SWAT fatally shoots man
A standoff Monday at a northwest Moultrie home ended with the resident dead and a police officer injured. Investigators said the man came at officers three times with a knife before a fatal shot was fired. Officers also tried to sudue the man with a Taser during the incident, but to no avail.
A witness at the scene identified the dead man as Wayne Peterson, but several officials contacted for this story refused to confirm his name.
Steve Turner, special agent in charge of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation’s Thomasville office, said someone threw a rock or brick through the window of the Best Little Store in Georgia on West Central Avenue sometime before 10 a.m. Monday. A Moultrie police officer went to a house on Seventh Avenue Northwest to question the resident, who was believed to have thrown the object.
The man threatened the officer with a butcher knife, Turner said. The officer withdrew and called the SWAT team.
Turner said the SWAT team tried to communicate with the man in the house, going so far as to try to give him a telephone. Officers placed the phone near the house, but the man wouldn’t retrieve it, Turner said.
Then the officers tried to move the phone into the house, he said, and the man came at them again with the knife. They used a Taser on him and he slammed the door, barricading himself inside again.
The officers thought they had incapacitated the man with the Taser, Turner said, so about 10 SWAT officers entered the house through the back between 12:30 and 1 p.m. Turner said the man went at them with the knife again and he was shot.
One of the SWAT officers suffered a head wound during the entry. Turner said it was not serious.
Turner said he is not aware of any of the SWAT officers being placed on adminiistrative leave in the wake of this incident.
The man’s body will be sent this morning to the GBI Crime Lab for autopsy, according to Colquitt County Deputy Coroner Jeremy Dickens.
Crime scene tape and officers’ cars blocked about two blocks of Seventh Street Northwest near the intersection with First Avenue. A crowd gathered shortly after the shooting.
Several onlookers said the man who was shot was mentally challenged and expressed their anger at what had happened. Turner could neither confirm nor deny the man’s mental condition.
“That man is mentally impaired and they shot that man,” said Angela Johnson, who lives in the area. “It’s no excuse at all for the Moultrie Police Department. No excuse at all. Why did you shoot that man for breaking a window?”
http://tiftongazette.com/local/x1642541189/Moultrie-SWAT-fatally-shoots-man
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“That man is mentally impaired and they shot that man,” said Angela Johnson, who lives in the area. “It’s no excuse at all for the Moultrie Police Department. No excuse at all. Why did you shoot that man for breaking a window?”
I guess trying to kill police officers is something that Angela can happily overlook. Maybe she should have been sent in to talk to Mr. Mentally Impaired.
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I guess trying to kill police officers is something that Angela can happily overlook. Maybe she should have been sent in to talk to Mr. Mentally Impaired.
Looking at it from another perspective, the responding cop had a gun, possibly a taser (our officers have them), and pepper spray, none of which he attempted to use. Instead, he ran (like a sissy?) and called in the freakin' SWAT team. Standard procedure maybe?
No one used tear gas into the house, the SWAT team tasered him (they thought), entered (where was the lead-in shield? where was the flash-bang?), he came with a knife, and they had (?) to shoot the guy.
How does a SWAT team member wearing a helmet get a head wound? Unless it's the face, but then they might have said face wound, not head wound.
Lots here to use - on how NOT to subdue a suspect with a SWAT team.
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Looking at it from another perspective, the responding cop had a gun, possibly a taser (our officers have them), and pepper spray, none of which he attempted to use. Instead, he ran (like a sissy?) and called in the freakin' SWAT team. Standard procedure maybe?
No one used tear gas into the house, the SWAT team tasered him (they thought), entered (where was the lead-in shield? where was the flash-bang?), he came with a knife, and they had (?) to shoot the guy.
How does a SWAT team member wearing a helmet get a head wound? Unless it's the face, but then they might have said face wound, not head wound.
Lots here to use - on how NOT to subdue a suspect with a SWAT team.
Same questions and thoughts I had, Path.
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The man broke a window and was running around in his house with a knife.....no threat to anyone unless they went after him....
That is the time to block the place off so he can't get loose, do a little research, maybe contact his Dr. or minister or a family member and try that approach.
Instead, they tazed him, and then stormed the place. He responded as they knew he would and they shot him.
Not saying that once that state of affairs was reached that the shooting was unjustified, just that the situation should have and could have been easily avoided.
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"so about 10 SWAT officers entered the house through the back between 12:30 and 1 p.m."
It took 3 minutes each for them to waddle their fat asses through the door ?
Seems if he was giving an approximate time he would have said "around quarter till 1 ".
Not enough info and that's only one side of the story, and probably further screwed up by the reporter.
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Socially
Warped
And
Troubled...
BTW...anyone notice that the S.W.A.T. TV forum has disappeared?
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Socially
Warped
And
Troubled...
BTW...anyone notice that the S.W.A.T. TV forum has disappeared?
I hadn't, but it makes sense.
That was something Pincus had going.
Since it wasn't one of MB's, or OC's shows I really didn't think it belonged here anyway.
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I agree with some previous posts,,,,,, no hostages,(which changes the dynamic), he's certainly not going anywhere, but just a knife?.... no tear gas, flash/bang grenades, bean bag 12g rds?
Seems an armed assault/entry is warranted as a last resort, but unless he had a Ma Duece or a "real" arsenal, it seems lobbing some OC grenades in the house might have led to a non lethal outcome.
Perhaps a long range sniper taser? Effective range 75-100 yds?
I wasn't there, so I don't know any other "things" going on,...but a 12g bean bag vs. a charging knife attack +3 attempts, would have changed his attitude, and perhaps saved his troubled life.
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Of course they could have just waited him out.
It's not as if any one was in danger.
With the economy the city might not have been able to afford the Over time.
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What he really paid for was the offense of attempting to attack a police officer....sort of anyone who is aggressive to a police officer needs to be swiftly made to pay.
I stopped watching the "Cop" TV shows because, in so many cases, when they caught the bad guy who ran none of he misdeeds mattered a bit but they emphatically drove home his BIG mistake of trying to evade the cops.
I guess it could be the adrenaline of the chase talking, but I'd seen it so often and in so many situations, other than a chase that I do believe the BIGGEST offense a perp can commit would be dissing the police. No matter what the actually crime was, they paid for the offense against the cops ....until court day.
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It;s a shame to see the police have devolved into little more than a reasonably well organized gang. Sort of like: Hurt one of our's and we'll take you out.
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It;s a shame to see the police have devolved into little more than a reasonably well organized gang. Sort of like: Hurt one of our's and we'll take you out.
Sometimes I think that is the major reason/purpose for most SWAT teams. That and justifying the "toys" budget.
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After putting some thought into it I have to say that SWAT teams are bad.
Giving Cops automatic weapons was the first step in a downward trend, (Little Bohemia any one ? )
It is a spiral that replaces "Policing" with fire power and leads to the militarization of police forces.
Remember it was not Ninja cops who stopped Charles Whitman, it was "good ole boys" with deer rifles.
The implementation of SWAT teams was one of the factors that lead to the egregious actions of NOPD during hurricane Katrina.
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After putting some thought into it I have to say that SWAT teams are bad.
Giving Cops automatic weapons was the first step in a downward trend, (Little Bohemia any one ? )
It is a spiral that replaces "Policing" with fire power and leads to the militarization of police forces.
Remember it was not Ninja cops who stopped Charles Whitman, it was "good ole boys" with deer rifles.
The implementation of SWAT teams was one of the factors that lead to the egregious actions of NOPD during hurricane Katrina.
Exactly. Cops get an "us against them" attitude just by dealing with scum so often....soon the 'us" is Cops and the "them" is everyone else. SWAT team mentality reinforces the gap and ups the force that can be applied to "them"
On the battle field, that attitude is more practical as most everyone in front of you is "them"....of course collateral damage might be higher because of it.
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I wasn't there and I am not a cop so with that out of the way here I go.
If a man charges you with a knife what will you do? The only choices I see are retreat (Cop#1) or shoot (SWAT). Tasers seem to work about 90% which in my mind is not enough of a percentage to bet my life on. We had a dead local officer who made that mistake.
Waiting them out, well I can tell you from talking with friends who are real life Metro SWAT cops that may work well with some one that is distraught but not with someone off their meds . No one gets more stable from not taking their medicne and being kept up for 2 days talking to the mediator. In the three case locally all three folks ended up either offing themselves or coming out shooting and were killed. No one was happy with the results.
He was just minding his own business? So why was the cop called in the first place? It's OK Uncle Enid always runs around threating folks with a knife. It's funny how some of you all bitch about the media reports except when it fits your agenda. I tend to wait for a complete AAR before getting upset.
Sorry Solus, Charles Whitman was killed by two Austin Police officers who stormed the clock tower. Yes sir locals had long guns and put up fire but they never touched him.
I strongly agree that using SWAT for low level drug warrants is just justifing the cost of the team. A very poor use of budget.
Fully automatic weapons, well if I had one I would carry it with me. Most departments who I have trained have aquired them from DOD or DOJ surplus. My local department will not have one because of the cost of maintaining a team. They call the KYSP if need be.
Most cops call SWAT, Sit Wait And Talk. Normal patrol then rush like hell and wait.
Us against them mentality? Yes, it is a very big problem which many cops have trouble dealing with. I just got through reading If I Knew Then 2 edited by Brian Willis and a number of stories are about cops treating family members as suspects and the damage it does to everyone. After 25 years of training cops, firefighters, EMS and emergency responders I'm not one of them. We can be friends and training buddies but there will always be that difference between us. Such is life.
Off the soapbox and off to the range.
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I wasn't there and I am not a cop so with that out of the way here I go.
If a man charges you with a knife what will you do? The only choices I see are retreat (Cop#1) or shoot (SWAT). Tasers seem to work about 90% which in my mind is not enough of a percentage to bet my life on. We had a dead local officer who made that mistake.
Waiting them out, well I can tell you from talking with friends who are real life Metro SWAT cops that may work well with some one that is distraught but not with someone off their meds . No one gets more stable from not taking their medicne and being kept up for 2 days talking to the mediator. In the three case locally all three folks ended up either offing themselves or coming out shooting and were killed. No one was happy with the results.
He was just minding his own business? So why was the cop called in the first place? It's OK Uncle Enid always runs around threating folks with a knife. It's funny how some of you all bitch about the media reports except when it fits your agenda. I tend to wait for a complete AAR before getting upset.
Sorry Solus, Charles Whitman was killed by two Austin Police officers who stormed the clock tower. Yes sir locals had long guns and put up fire but they never touched him.
I strongly agree that using SWAT for low level drug warrants is just justifing the cost of the team. A very poor use of budget.
Fully automatic weapons, well if I had one I would carry it with me. Most departments who I have trained have aquired them from DOD or DOJ surplus. My local department will not have one because of the cost of maintaining a team. They call the KYSP if need be.
Most cops call SWAT, Sit Wait And Talk. Normal patrol then rush like hell and wait.
Us against them mentality? Yes, it is a very big problem which many cops have trouble dealing with. I just got through reading If I Knew Then 2 edited by Brian Willis and a number of stories are about cops treating family members as suspects and the damage it does to everyone. After 25 years of training cops, firefighters, EMS and emergency responders I'm not one of them. We can be friends and training buddies but there will always be that difference between us. Such is life.
Off the soapbox and off to the range.
Whitman needed to be stopped. If he had been up there after breaking a window and threatening anyone who came up after him with a knife, I hope other means of resolution would be tried before storming him and shooting him.
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That's a long post so I will add my comments in the quote so it doesn't get confusing.
I wasn't there and I am not a cop so with that out of the way here I go.
If a man charges you with a knife what will you do? The only choices I see are retreat (Cop#1) or shoot (SWAT). Tasers seem to work about 90% which in my mind is not enough of a percentage to bet my life on. We had a dead local officer who made that mistake.
In the 5 years I have been living in this county there have been several similar incidents, none have resulted in any injury to any one.
There is not enough detail to be sure but it seems the first cop acted appropriately.
The SWAT team how ever seems to have reacted like they were trying to beat a schedule. There were no hostages in danger there fore there was no legitimate reason to escalate a situation that would normally have simply petered out when the suspect got bored,
He does not have appeared to have shown any aggression except to people trying to force their way into his home.
In effect he was executed for "suspicion of vandalism".
Waiting them out, well I can tell you from talking with friends who are real life Metro SWAT cops that may work well with some one that is distraught but not with someone off their meds . No one gets more stable from not taking their medicne and being kept up for 2 days talking to the mediator. In the three case locally all three folks ended up either offing themselves or coming out shooting and were killed. No one was happy with the results.
As mentioned above, it has been uniformly successful in this county for 5 years
He was just minding his own business? So why was the cop called in the first place? It's OK Uncle Enid always runs around threating folks with a knife. It's funny how some of you all bitch about the media reports except when it fits your agenda. I tend to wait for a complete AAR before getting upset.
Based on the info available in the article he was threatening no one until confronted in his own home.
Sorry Solus, Charles Whitman was killed by two Austin Police officers who stormed the clock tower. Yes sir locals had long guns and put up fire but they never touched him.
That was me, not Solus. While I stand corrected, (just double checked Wiki, it was 3 APD officers and 1 civilian, though the fatal shoots were fired by APD officer McCoy ) The 3 APD Officers were just cops doing a cop job, not armored "storm troopers" with an attitude.
I strongly agree that using SWAT for low level drug warrants is just justifing the cost of the team. A very poor use of budget.
Fully automatic weapons, well if I had one I would carry it with me. Most departments who I have trained have aquired them from DOD or DOJ surplus. My local department will not have one because of the cost of maintaining a team. They call the KYSP if need be.
Most cops call SWAT, Sit Wait And Talk. Normal patrol then rush like hell and wait.
It is not simply the equipment of SWAT teams I find improper, but also, probably more so, the hiring and selection process that tends to focus on things like military experience. The purpose, mindset, and "rules of engagement for police, are and should be quite different from those of the military, blurring the line between the 2 is a bad thing.
That is underlined by this incident. This was not Osama or some terrorist in Pakistan, nor were these guys SOC troops, regardless of what they may wish to believe.
Us against them mentality? Yes, it is a very big problem which many cops have trouble dealing with. I just got through reading If I Knew Then 2 edited by Brian Willis and a number of stories are about cops treating family members as suspects and the damage it does to everyone. After 25 years of training cops, firefighters, EMS and emergency responders I'm not one of them. We can be friends and training buddies but there will always be that difference between us. Such is life.
Off the soapbox and off to the range.
I'm still fascinated by the one thing no one else has mentioned, a half hour for 10 hot shots to get in to the house ?
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That's a long post so I will add my comments in the quote so it doesn't get confusing.
I'm still fascinated by the one thing no one else has mentioned, a half hour for 10 hot shots to get in to the house ?
I figured the reporter just didn't get exact information from the police and what bothers me about that is that they said they decided to storm the back door because they thought he would be disabled from the tazing....sort of seems like they aren't sure exactly how long it took after the tazing to make that decision.
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I figured the reporter just didn't get exact information from the police and what bothers me about that is that they said they decided to storm the back door because they thought he would be disabled from the tazing....sort of seems like they aren't sure exactly how long it took after the tazing to make that decision.
Apparently to long.
Since it is a newspaper item there is no video to judge for ourselves and it is almost guarunteed that some aspect of the report is screwed up.
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Apparently to long.
Since it is a newspaper item there is no video to judge for ourselves and it is almost guarunteed that some aspect of the report is screwed up.
Yeah...perhaps he was tazed at 12:30 and killed at 1:00...
I'd also be interested in exactly how may rounds were fired and how many hit him.
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Yeah...perhaps he was tazed at 12:30 and killed at 1:00...
I'd also be interested in exactly how may rounds were fired and how many hit him.
Considering the generally remarkable level of police training that's always a fun fact.
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Considering the generally remarkable level of police training that's always a fun fact.
Almost always can shake our heads at the hit %, but lately I've been more interested in the fact that several questionable police shootings have involved the target being hit with 30 or more rounds.
We are trained to shoot till the threat is eliminated. It seems the police are trained to shoot till all the spare ammo is gone.
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A follow-up email to the reporter has yielded no more info than what was originally reported, which was expected.