The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: garand4life on September 07, 2011, 11:01:52 AM
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I've been really debating a midsize or full-size Glock in 357SIG. I've always been interested in the caliber but am curious if there is any real world advantage. I know there is a lot of respect for the ballistic capabilities of the round and I had debated a G22/23 with a conversion barrel but I'm not quite willing to travel down that road.
So the question becomes...
Is the ammo a reasonable defensive caliber?
Is the recoil substantially different from a .40S&W?
Is the availability and price of 357SIG, on the average, unreasonable?
I know it doesn't seem to be as popular as 40, 45, and 9. Is there a reason for that?
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It's a round that doesn't seem to be catching on, like .45 GAP.
I seldom see the ammo advertised , don't know of any major department or agency that retained it for any length of time.
While it would probably do the job as well as any other caliber , my opinion would be to stick with a caliber that is more readily available, 9, .45, and increasingly .40.
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I keep hearing not to buy a .357SIG due to ammo being hard to find and that may become reality at some point. The choices certainly aren't there compared to 9mm, .40 and .45 but it is available. I bought a .357 SIG barrel because at one time it was one of the few calibers available.
During the "ammo shortage" the only thing I would see on the shelf at Walmart would be a box or 2 of .357SIG and the price would usually be fairly reasonable so I would pick them up.
I don't see a lot of difference in recoil between the .40 and the .357SIG.
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Kind of an interesting podcast posted on another forum. The .357sig discussion starts about 8:30.
http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/07/11/055-were-getting-the-band-back-together-to-discuss-the-357sig-cartridge/ (http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/07/11/055-were-getting-the-band-back-together-to-discuss-the-357sig-cartridge/)
I don't have any experience yet (getting a .357 barrel for my .40S&W Sig soon) but it does intrigue me. The ammo is defintily not cheap so I probably wont be shooting it a lot.
Some claim that you can get essentially the same performance from 9mm +P+.
Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG)
It is carried by the Secret Service and Air Marshals to name a couple.
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I don't own one but being a fan of the .357 I've looked at the numbers a few times.
It's a high velocity cartridge that hits hard and shoots flat as hell. It's intrigued me as well but I'd be more inclined to buy a Sig P239 or something in the caliber than anything else.
Every time I shoot my daughters P228 I try and buy it from her. The more I shoot them, the more I like them...off topic but what else is new?
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A couple of years a ago I was on a hog hunt and i for got my back up gun. I usually carry a Glock20 but It was left behind in my rush to airport. My dad handed me his Sig 226 elite with the understanding I wouldnt drop in in the mud. Thank goodness i had the 226 it saved my ass big time, a boar came out of no where and i only had time to unholster I fire 2 shots. After i checked my shorts the boar dropped dead, one shot went from the top the shoulder down through the belly and the other in the spine. I dont think 9 40 45 would have done the same.
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Bottlenecking a .40 down to a 9mm, is just making a 9mm +P or +P+ rd.
Ok here is my un-educated 2 cents.
.40 S&W is generally far more available then .357SIG and is usually cheaper by an amount similar to .40 vs. .45.
.357SIG is a very very very hot 9mm for lack of a better term. Now because of this you can find some 9mm +P+ that basically performs like some of the .357SIG offerings. The best .357SIG will perform better than a hot 9mm though, IMO.
.357SIG is loud, has lots of flash and a snappier more upward kick then .40. This is of course in my opinion since recoil is very subjective. It is by no means harsh through a SIG P239, just snappier.
.357SIG has been known to batter even the best guns and puts more wear and tear.
I would THINK .357SIG would be a better barrier penetrator then .40 but I worry, probably needlessly so, that .357SIG may over penetrate in situations that you may not want it to. I have heard this really comes down to the design of the hollow point and some have great reputations and some don't.
If I were you I would get the gun in .40 and convert to .357 at your leisure. I personally love .357SIG for fun but carry 165 grain .40 caliber ammunition when I carry my P239. I am sort of a bigger hole is better kind of guy. Not that I want to start any caliber wars as I frequently carry 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40, .45 and I believe that with proper ammunition all are more than adequate in the self defense role. I am just saying that I feel better with bigger bullets making bigger holes as a psychological thing for me, hence my most carried SD gun is a SIG P245 in .45 ACP.
So in short for me, .357SIG is fun but I prefer .40 for real work.
Federal Tactical 125gr 357 Sig: Vel= 1390fps/ Pen= 13.5"/ Exp= .62
Federal Tactical 180gr .40SW: Vel= 1000fps/ Pen= 12.4"/ Exp= .73
Federal Tactical 165gr .40SW: Vel= 1013fps/ Pen= 12.9"/ Exp= .65
Ranger 125gr RA357T: Vel= 1340fps/ Pen= 13.5"/ Exp= .63
Ranger 180gr RA40T: Vel= 910fps/ Pen= 14.2"/ Exp= .65
Ranger 165gr RA40TA: Vel= 1166fps/ Pen= 13.5"/ Exp= .66
For the sake of comparison, here is the data for the 127gr +P+ RA9TA through 4-layers of 14.oz denim, fired from a G19. Test is courtesy of ammolab.
Ranger 127gr +P+ RA9TA: Vel= 1219fps/ Pen= 14.8"/ Exp= .63
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-56038.html
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I wouldn't mind getting a .357 Sig barrel for my M+P full size .40... Just a barrel swap as the mags cover both. Like the .45GAP, it works fine, but you'll pay extra, or look harder to find it.
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I know there is a lot of respect for the ballistic capabilities of the round and I had debated a G22/23 with a conversion barrel but I'm not quite willing to travel down that road.
Just curious G4life, why?
Everything, springs, mags, etc. is the same except for the chambering. I can't think of an easier conversion than a barrel switch.
The only reason I haven't picked up a Storm Lake barrel for my 23 is I'd rather spend $173 on other stuff.
I would THINK .357SIG would be a better barrier penetrator then .40 but I worry, probably needlessly so, that .357SIG may over penetrate in situations that you may not want it to. I have heard this really comes down to the design of the hollow point and some have great reputations and some don't.
Find out the 357 SIG load the Air Marshalls use.
Overpenetration problems can be controlled by,
1. Really slow velocity in heavy for caliber bullets.
2. Really high velocity in light for caliber JHP bullets.
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Just curious G4life, why?
Everything, springs, mags, etc. is the same except for the chambering. I can't think of an easier conversion than a barrel switch.
The only reason I haven't picked up a Storm Lake barrel for my 23 is I'd rather spend $173 on other stuff.
I just prefer to have all original guns. I'm one of those people that won't change things on my car like the stereo cause I like to keep things all original. Same with my guns. I rarely ever change anything on them cause I like to keep them all original. I'm just weird.
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I'm one of those people that won't change things on my car like the stereo cause I like to keep things all original... I'm just weird.
I hope that doesn't include the engine oil ;D ;D ;D
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I just prefer to have all original guns. I'm one of those people that won't change things on my car - I'm just weird.
Maybe traditionalist would be a better word. ;)
I love changing things on guns.
My Rem 700 was rebuilt by a benchrester/machinist. (amazing rifle!) If you have never shot a rifle with a Jewell trigger DON'T. You will want more of them.
My 308 R-25 has a Timney trigger and is still at Krieger getting its new barrel. 2 out 3 SIGS have had the NP3 "Norton Special" done by Robar, (they also did a trigger job on the 220 that I really want on the 225 & 226 now).
All but one S&W revo have had trigger jobs by Nelson Ford who also did the 1911 trigger jobs.
I won't spend money on engraving but a better trigger and/or a no maintenance finish, OH YEAH! ;D
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the 357 sig is just a sissy 9x25 dillon.
Other then for the "cool" factor I can see no reason for owning a gun in that chambering.
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the 357 sig is just a sissy 9x25 dillon.
Other then for the "cool" factor I can see no reason for owning a gun in that chambering.
Cool factor is a valid reason. ;D
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I liked the podcast of Massad Ayoob taking about the .357SIG. it seems there is a lot of valid points for it being a good cartridge for self defense. I might have to get one at some point. Thanks for the input all.
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One guy told me his .357 SIG was the most accurate pistol he had. That would be a good reason to own one, but I like .45s.
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Cool factor is a valid reason. ;D
never said it wasn't, but I'd rather own a 9x25 dillon...
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If I am correct the New Mexico State Police adopted the Glock in .357 Sig? Another State Patrol was looking at it but cannot remember who?
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The Texas Dept of Public Safety carries glocks in 357 sig. Not sure what model gun it is.
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Heck if yer lookin fer a real screamer cartridge that penetrates like all get out and is fun to shoot....
Get a TOK 7.62 x 25.
Out penetrates a .357 mag!
Cheap to buy ammo and gun. Fer $500 you can have the gun and a couple thousand rounds.
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Just curious G4life, why?
Everything, springs, mags, etc. is the same except for the chambering. I can't think of an easier conversion than a barrel switch.
The only reason I haven't picked up a Storm Lake barrel for my 23 is I'd rather spend $173 on other stuff.
Find out the 357 SIG load the Air Marshalls use.
Overpenetration problems can be controlled by,
1. Really slow velocity in heavy for caliber bullets.
2. Really high velocity in light for caliber JHP bullets.
Federal Air Marshalls supposedly use Cor-Bon Power Ball 125gr rated at 1600fps or nearly 150fps faster than the same weight 357mag powerball. It's supposedly so fast it will fragment on any hard surface but still has very good soft tissue penetration. I don't have any issues finding 357 sig ammo, it's thick on the shelf at my local wally world for about the same price as comparable 40/45 rds and the range I go to sells reloads just like every other common caliber. I'm selling my 357 Sig 239 because I don't want to stock another caliber. If I still had 40's I'd keep it but I've only got 9 & 45. I'd get a 40 barrel and shoot it for practice and fun and carry a super hot 357sig load for defense. I figure I carry a J-frame .357mag now and the Sig 239 gives the same ballistics in a slightly larger size/weight pistol with 3 more rounds and faster reloads. Not a bad power to weight ratio but I still have mine for sale.
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I'm selling my 357 Sig 239 because I don't want to stock another caliber.
How much?
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How much?
IM sent
10-8 Update, I sold it this morning, a little more cash for the 1911 fund
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My experience is that it does have more snappy recoil than the .40 S&W. It is also substantially louder, and I believe this is a valid consideration for a defense gun. You are most likely going to shoot in self defense with no hearing protection. I have a buddy that permanently damaged his hearing shooting a .357 Sig in an emergency situation. The ammo is rather on the exotic side compared to 9mm, .40 and .45, so of course it costs more. My personal preference is bigger, heavier bullets at lower velocities and pressures. I shoot .45 because I believe it to be the best caliber for self defense.
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My experience is that it does have more snappy recoil than the .40 S&W. It is also substantially louder, and I believe this is a valid consideration for a defense gun. You are most likely going to shoot in self defense with no hearing protection. I have a buddy that permanently damaged his hearing shooting a .357 Sig in an emergency situation. The ammo is rather on the exotic side compared to 9mm, .40 and .45, so of course it costs more. My personal preference is bigger, heavier bullets at lower velocities and pressures. I shoot .45 because I believe it to be the best caliber for self defense.
I'll tend to agree with you on the loudness, about the same as my 10mm Glock and short barreled .357 mags. Anything loaded to higher pressures will obviously be louder. As far as being on the exotic side I have to disagree, anything that is readily available on the shelf at Wal-Mart is not an exotic. Sure it's not as common as 9mm, .45acp or .40s&w but what is? Once a caliber has been put into use by a federal agency it really can't be considered too exotic. It may have been somewhat exotic 5 years ago but .40s&w was in the same boat 20 years ago. It is now the 5th best selling auto pistol cartridge behind only those 3 and .380. It is now far more available than .45gap, 10mm and .38super. Exotic is something like 9X25 or other cartridges that you can buy a barrel for but can't find loaded ammo readily available. I carry a .45 more than anything, well a .45 and a .357 normally, so even though I believe in the big, slow bullet myself I also see a use for a smaller and super fast one as well.
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Don't forget the .41 Magnum. Ballistics are top notch. Like the 10mm, a great rd. Never really caught on, especially when the politics got involved.
Yes, there are the lovers and reloaders that swear by them....But they are the extreme minority in the scheme of the evolution of ammo.
The .380, even the .32, were once not even considered worthy as a primary carry weapon. The ammo evolved, and became a heck of a lot more effective, and the sales in those calibers skyrocketed.
I still want a .357 Sig barrel for my S&W M&P as the mags will work for both,...but I won't stockpile the Sig ammo,....
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Don't forget the .41 Magnum. Ballistics are top notch. Like the 10mm, a great rd. Never really caught on, especially when the politics got involved.
Yes, there are the lovers and reloaders that swear by them....But they are the extreme minority in the scheme of the evolution of ammo.
The .380, even the .32, were once not even considered worthy as a primary carry weapon. The ammo evolved, and became a heck of a lot more effective, and the sales in those calibers skyrocketed.
I still want a .357 Sig barrel for my S&W M&P as the mags will work for both,...but I won't stockpile the Sig ammo,....
I wouldn't stockpile ammo for it either but your smart to have the barrel and some ammo on hand. It gives you options in case ammo would get scarce again. What other caliber can you change too with just a barrel? Not even having to buy more mags is a big plus in my book.
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The Texas Dept of Public Safety carries glocks in 357 sig. Not sure what model gun it is.
Texas DPS carries Sig 226 DAK's in .357 SIG. Best pistol round I've ever shot, I still like .45 ACP better, but honestly the .357 SIG I think shoots much better. If I had the money and didn't mind a new caliber, I would buy one.
I don't think the round is going anywhere, so I would worry about that, and every store I've been to that carries ammo always carries it.
Like someone else said it shoots flat and fast as hell, that's why the State Troopers love it. Recoil is sharp and easily manageable. My father loves shooting pigs with it and takes it on every hunt. If he swears buy it, so would I.
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Probably wind up a "cult classic, Like Super .38, .41 Mag, and 10MM.
Always around, never common.
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Texas Dept. of Public Safety (our state troopers) love their .357SIG P226's....they say that they perform like the .357Mag revolvers that they used to carry. Very few DPS troopers chose to keep their .45ACP P220's.
Having a gun in .357SIG makes sense only if you have a spare barrel in 9mm....cheaper for practice, and more ammo availibility if you can't find the SIG round....
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Texas Dept. of Public Safety (our state troopers) love their .357SIG P226's....they say that they perform like the .357Mag revolvers that they used to carry. Very few DPS troopers chose to keep their .45ACP P220's.
Having a gun in .357SIG makes sense only if you have a spare barrel in 9mm....cheaper for practice, and more ammo availibility if you can't find the SIG round....
You'd really be better served practicing with 40s&w though. Not as cheap as 9mm but much closer in felt recoil. Any practice is better than none but carrying .357sig and practicing with 9mm is like carrying 9mm and practicing with .22lr.
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Any practice is better than none but carrying .357sig and practicing with 9mm is like carrying 9mm and practicing with .22lr.
Actually, I do just that....and I find that I get better practice with my trigger control & aiming with the .22lr that translates well over to the full-power 9mm....plus it doesn't take a lot of rounds to "get used to" recoil.....so I'm not seeing a problem here....
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Actually, I do just that....and I find that I get better practice with my trigger control & aiming with the .22lr that translates well over to the full-power 9mm....plus it doesn't take a lot of rounds to "get used to" recoil.....so I'm not seeing a problem here....
There probably isn't much of a problem for an experienced shooter since you've already become accustomed to recoil and trigger control and repetition are more important. For newer shooters or those that don't shoot much it could cause some problems, especially if they are recoil sensitive. Also I know you can find a 9mm barrel for 357/40 Glocks but they don't catalog any for Sigs, at least the 239. They specifically say you can't use the 9mm barrel in a 357/40 Sig 239. I also couldn't find an aftermarket barrel, not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find one on a web search.
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Also I know you can find a 9mm barrel for 357/40 Glocks but they don't catalog any for Sigs, at least the 239. They specifically say you can't use the 9mm barrel in a 357/40 Sig 239. I also couldn't find an aftermarket barrel, not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find one on a web search.
Not a lot of aftermarket for the 239's, but I think you can get 9mm barrels for the 226 & 229 easily enough....