The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: david86440 on September 09, 2011, 12:18:40 AM
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I've been watching with amusement tonight local television feed from a San Diego TV station. The power went out about 4pm and they are showing gas stations packed with cars that are out of fuel or not enough fuel to go any further. A lady is crying because she has no cash and the ATM is not working. Another guy is "really stressing" because he has no food because he always eats out. Another lady said she never expected anything like this to ever happen.
People really do need a wake up call in this country.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/12522732/cbs-8-live-stream-player?redirected=true
http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/190255/175/Massive-Power-Outage-Hits-Southern-California
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Another lady said she never expected anything like this to ever happen.
People really do need a wake up call in this country.
Good thing she lives in San Diego.
If she lived in MN or any other midwest/northern state where there are ice storms, she would already be dead.
IDIOTS!
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Unbelievable.... exactly how long was the power out?
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http://news.yahoo.com/power-back-1-4-million-san-diego-customers-123912712.html
SAN DIEGO (AP) — Electricity was restored in San Diego early Friday after utility crews worked around-the-clock to make emergency repairs following an outage accidentally triggered by a utility worker.
Parts of California, Arizona and Mexico also were left in the dark.
The restoration of power in San Diego signaled that the blackout was essentially over, with electricity back to almost everyone affected by the outage, though the electrical system was deemed fragile and people were urged to go easy on air conditioning.
San Diego schools and beaches remained closed.
The San Diego area was hit especially hard with power severed about 4 p.m. Thursday to all of San Diego Gas & Electric Co.'s 1.4 million household and business customers, the company said, leaving residents sweltering without air conditioners and paralyzing some San Diego freeway and airport traffic.
Power was restored in San Diego Friday morning. According to tallies provided by officials, power was also restored to 180,000 customers in Mexico and 56,000 in Yuma, Arizona.
The entire region is home to some 6 million people, though it was impossible to say exactly how many had lost power.
The outage occurred after an electrical worker removed a piece of monitoring equipment at a power substation in southwest Arizona, officials at Phoenix-based Arizona Public Service Co. said.
It's possible that extreme heat in the region also may have caused some problems with the transmission lines, said Mike Niggli, chief operating officer of San Diego Gas & Electric Co.
Two reactors at a nuclear power plant along the coast went offline after losing electricity, but officials said there was no danger to the public or workers.
During the night, much of San Diego was in darkness, and all outgoing flights grounded at its main airport, Lindbergh Field. The airfield was open and had power Friday morning but authorities said some airlines may have cancelled individual flights.
The blackout extended south of the border to Tijuana, Mexicali and other cities in Mexico's Baja California state, which are connected to the U.S. power grid, Niggli said.
Police on both sides sent in re-enforcements to prevent looting and other crime in their cities, but none was reported.
In the border city of Tijuana, people formed long lines outside convenience stores Thursday, trying to buy ice or take advance of beer being sold at half price. Many people were drinking that beer on the streets or in parked cars with speakers booming loud music.
Cars also formed snaking lines at the few gas stations with generators that remained open and Traffic snarled street after traffic lights stopped working.
Jose Padilla Flores, who was one of the few people who still had electricity Thursday, was offering to let people watch the telenovela on his television if they bought fried tacos and flavored water from his small restaurant "El Dorado" in the Independencia neighborhood.
"My female neighbors were the first ones to ask if I could let them watch the telenovela," said Padilla Flores, 35. "I thought that was a great idea to promote my business."
The outage came more than eight years after a more severe black out in 2003 darkened a large swath of the Northeast and Midwest. More than 50 million people were affected in that outage.
In 2001, California's failed experiment with energy deregulation was widely blamed for six days of rolling blackouts that cut power to more than 3 million customers and shut down refrigerators, ATMs and traffic signals.
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The restoration of power in San Diego signaled that the blackout was essentially over...
Anyone want to take this one? I'm tired.
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San Diego schools and beaches remained closed.
I had no idea the ocean ran on electrical power.
They never told me that when I got my scuba certs.
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San Diego schools and beaches remained closed.
I had no idea the ocean ran on electrical power.
They never told me that when I got my scuba certs.
The concern is raw sewerage that got dumped when the treatment plant pumps failed.
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The outage occurred after an electrical worker removed a piece of monitoring equipment at a power substation in southwest Arizona, officials at Phoenix-based Arizona Public Service Co. said.
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Two reactors at a nuclear power plant along the coast went offline after losing electricity, but officials said there was no danger to the public or workers.
Removed a piece of monitoring equipment? I guess the output of that monitor was extremely critical to the operation of the whole grid. You'd hope something that critical would have a fail safe / fail operate backup.
Please explain, why two operating (on-line) nuclear power plant generators would loose electricity? It would seem to me that a plants own power would first and foremost be used to keep the plant operating. The "grid" would be the first backup and generators would be the second.
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Removed a piece of monitoring equipment? I guess the output of that monitor was extremely critical to the operation of the whole grid. You'd hope something that critical would have a fail safe / fail operate backup.
Please explain, why two operating (on-line) nuclear power plant generators would loose electricity? It would seem to me that a plants own power would first and foremost be used to keep the plant operating. The "grid" would be the first backup and generators would be the second.
Obama's "Not so smart" Grid
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I've been watching with amusement tonight local television feed from a San Diego TV station. The power went out about 4pm and they are showing gas stations packed with cars that are out of fuel or not enough fuel to go any further. A lady is crying because she has no cash and the ATM is not working. Another guy is "really stressing" because he has no food because he always eats out. Another lady said she never expected anything like this to ever happen.
People really do need a wake up call in this country.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/12522732/cbs-8-live-stream-player?redirected=true
http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/190255/175/Massive-Power-Outage-Hits-Southern-California
Trouble is, they get wake-up calls all of the damned time, and the stupid sheeple never learn!
PS: My son is at Camp Pendleton, doubtful they even noticed the power was out - they have been on a multi-day field exercise. Fun times!!!!!
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Damn Electricians..... ;)
Leave it to ONE sparky, to put millions out of power. That are unprepared, and rendered helpless in a minute.
(http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx97/JML9999/Homer_Simpson_DOH.jpg)
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I mean crying over an overnight power outage?
How would a person like that deal with a real disaster?
Not even a major one...just a little one.
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The concern is raw sewerage that got dumped when the treatment plant pumps failed.
Read as: They converted to the Tijuana treatment system. :P
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I'm not exposing anything on here that HOPEFULLY our illustrious Homeland Security Agency hasn't already figured out, but take out some lowly isolated substations that are unguarded with nothing more than chain link fence, and you could put major cities in the dark for days even weeks with simple items....
Whatever happened to the Boy Scout Motto?????
Like I posted before, When the zombies come, there will be many that just won't make it.
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I'm not exposing anything on here that HOPEFULLY our illustrious Homeland Security Agency hasn't already figured out, but take out some lowly isolated substations that are unguarded with nothing more than chain link fence, and you could put major cities in the dark for days even weeks with simple items....
Whatever happened to the Boy Scout Motto?????
Like I posted before, When the zombies come, there will be many that just won't make it.
I just got done reading "Cyber War" by Richard Clarke, the whole grid can be taken out with a few key strokes by hackers in about 30 countries.
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I just got done reading "Cyber War" by Richard Clarke, the whole grid can be taken out with a few key strokes by hackers in about 30 countries.
Or for that matter a good hacker can control the grid. A lot of plants are run on AGC.
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Obama's "Smart grid" makes them even more vulnerable too.
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Obama's "Smart grid" makes them even more vulnerable too.
Even though you want to, I really don't think Obama is to blame for this outage Tom.
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Even though you want to, I really don't think Obama is to blame for this outage Tom.
Heck No,....This is Bush's fault....C'mon now,....he let the "delicate" nature of the grid decline.....Surely one sparky doing "maint." could never knock out millions of folks, and 500,000 volt main grid power lines,,....
Cheney probably something to do with it too....
;)
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Heck No,....This is Bush's fault....C'mon now,....he let the "delicate" nature of the grid decline.....Surely one sparky doing "maint." could never knock out millions of folks, and 500,000 volt main grid power lines,,....
Cheney probably something to do with it too....
;)
Oh, it's you, TW. I thought FQ was back for a second.
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Even though you want to, I really don't think Obama is to blame for this outage Tom.
;D That isn't what I meant, but............
I meant that the "Smart grid" increases vulnerability to a cyber attack such as those launched by Russia against Estonia and Georgia, and by N Korea against the US and S Korea.
And then there was the Israeli action when they took out the Syrian/N Korean Nuke facility a few years back.
No one is really sure what the hell they did, but they owned the Syrian air defense system for hours.
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;D That isn't what I meant, but............
I meant that the "Smart grid" increases vulnerability to a cyber attack such as those launched by Russia against Estonia and Georgia, and by N Korea against the US and S Korea.
And then there was the Israeli action when they took out the Syrian/N Korean Nuke facility a few years back.
No one is really sure what the hell they did, but they owned the Syrian air defense system for hours.
I do agree we are more vulnerable today and it is getting worse with ever more dependence on the internet in controlling the grid, but, and I hate to say it, it did start before Obumma.
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Please explain, why two operating (on-line) nuclear power plant generators would loose electricity? It would seem to me that a plants own power would first and foremost be used to keep the plant operating. The "grid" would be the first backup and generators would be the second.
Though is sounds stupid, the plants generated power is sent offsite to the utility and bought back from the utility to run the nuclear plant. At least most plants operate that way. With a sudden drop in electricity, the fail safe built into the system must shut down the reactors. It would take a bit of time to re-route the power, the reactor trip is a pretty quick operation. Remember, the reactor doesn't make electricity, it makes heat which boils water to steam and that is passed through a steam turbine and that powers the generators, etc...
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Though is sounds stupid, the plants generated power is sent offsite to the utility and bought back from the utility to run the nuclear plant. At least most plants operate that way. With a sudden drop in electricity, the fail safe built into the system must shut down the reactors. It would take a bit of time to re-route the power, the reactor trip is a pretty quick operation. Remember, the reactor doesn't make electricity, it makes heat which boils water to steam and that is passed through a steam turbine and that powers the generators, etc...
Much the way a coal power plant works except for what is used to heat the water?
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Though is sounds stupid, the plants generated power is sent offsite to the utility and bought back from the utility to run the nuclear plant.
No it doesn't "sound" stupid. It is stupid. Generated power should FIRST be used to keep the plant safe, then the excess can go to the grid. Or how tough is it to put in a small extra turbine (or 2) to generate power just to run the plant? That would smart, especially when dealing with nuclear reactors.
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No it doesn't "sound" stupid. It is stupid. Generated power should FIRST be used to keep the plant safe, then the excess can go to the grid. Or how tough is it to put in a small extra turbine (or 2) to generate power just to run the plant? That would smart, especially when dealing with nuclear reactors.
It is likely an accounting "sent". All power generated is owned by the Utility Company and it then bills the plant for it's usage....what ever is generated but not received by the Utility Co.
Probably the only way to keep the Plant from having unlimited free power for the workers to coming to work with their pickup's full of batteries needing charging. Also makes cost analysis accurate.
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No it doesn't "sound" stupid. It is stupid. Generated power should FIRST be used to keep the plant safe, then the excess can go to the grid. Or how tough is it to put in a small extra turbine (or 2) to generate power just to run the plant? That would smart, especially when dealing with nuclear reactors.
Alf, according to a report I read this morning, San Onofre never actually lost power but the electrical blackout caused a trip which shuts down the reactor for safety reasons. Everything worked the way it was designed.
Just a bit of trivia but San Onofre is one of the most well guarded facilities in the industry as it's actually sitting on Camp Pendleton. I worked there off and on for more than a decade. It was one of the few plants I was allowed unescorted access.
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I work for a major independent power producer (28000 MW) so I am only speaking for merchant plants here.
When the plant is operating, the power consumed within the plant is called parasitic load and is not charged back to the generator by the utility because it hasn't yet entered the grid but it reduces the amount of electricity that passes through the revenue meter exiting the plant. Every attempt is made to keep parasitic load to a minimum in order to lower the heatrate (lower heatrate means higher efficiency) of the plant and thereby increase revenue. (more power going out)
The turbine/generator is designed to trip offline for safety and equipment protection reasons when an upset is detected. If you lose a major transmission line or other powerplant on the system the powerplants currently online have to be able to pick up that load instantly and if they can't, such as in this case, they have under/over voltage and current protection relays that trip them offline. You don't want to be sending 500 or 1000 MW out that could possibly be going to a dead short in the system. If it's a small upset they can usually react fast enough to keep things going and all you see is a slight voltage drop.
Also, most merchant plants are not designed to operate as a power island. They need outside power in order to start up the unit and provide service to the plant when it is not operating which is purchased just like at your house.
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And then there was the Israeli action when they took out the Syrian/N Korean Nuke facility a few years back.
No one is really sure what the hell they did, but they owned the Syrian air defense system for hours.
From Military.com:
In September 2007, for example, Israeli jets destroyed a suspected nuclear facility under construction in a remote part of Syria. From what journalists have discerned, Israel jammed Syrian radar and other defenses, allowing sufficient time to launch the strike undetected. During the attack, cyber-tactics appeared to involve remote air-to-ground electronic attack and network penetration of Syria's command-and-control systems.
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,210486,00.html
Is network penetration the same as porn online? :D
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More like "Cyber sex". Those little bits and bytes f*ck you. ;D
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I believe that Nuke plants have on site back up electrical generation capability. Most likely diesel generators.
For an understanding of the vulnerability of our energy systems try reading "Brittle Power: Energy Strategy for National Security" by Amory and Hunter Lovins. The 1982 book was originally a Pentagon Study and rereleased following 9-11. The 500 page book can get a little dry, but I did read all 486 pages better than 20 years ago and it will scare you. More about the book here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle_Power