The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: JC5123 on October 04, 2011, 08:37:48 AM
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What do you guys think about these things? Personally I'm torn about them. On the one hand, in a true emergency they can be life savers. Then again, I keep hearing stories like this, and think it might be better to put a little more fear back into the backcountry.
http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_59fb03fa-5d8c-5708-8451-b2fbc6740929.html?mode=story
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Hi;
1; This reads like a couple of hikers who should have planned their trip better - if at all.
2; You dont leave your friends behind unless in a desparate attempt to get help.
3; Sounds like there was some arguing amoungts them.
4; The guy from Mich was probably inexpierienced and wimpy and panicd
5; The cost of going after those 2 should be included in with the fine.
6; The SPOT machine used properly is a good thing if used by reasonable people.
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Hi;
1; This reads like a couple of hikers who should have planned their trip better - if at all.
2; You dont leave your friends behind unless in a desparate attempt to get help.
3; Sounds like there was some arguing amoungts them.
4; The guy from Mich was probably inexpierienced and wimpy and panicd
5; The cost of going after those 2 should be included in with the fine.
6; The SPOT machine used properly is a good thing if used by reasonable people.
Agreed.
I don't know about other states, but here in NH if you need to be rescued because you did something stupid you will be charged for the cost of the search and rescue .
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Similar devices have been in use for years in the nautical community. There they are called EPIRBs or Emergency Position Indicating Beacons, and they have a solid history of assisting in rescues at sea.
More recently, they have been reconfigured and made available for use by those who may find themselves lost in the wilderness.
They both make use of the Global Positioning System, a system comprising a "birdcage" of geostationary satellites that provide constant triangulating radio signals to terrestrial receiving devices. They can give a latitude, longitude and altitude that is accurate to about 9 meters for civilian units, and about 3 meters at mach 1 for military devices.
In my opinion, the biggest problem with the GPS systems used on boats is that they allow minimally skilled sailors to make lengthy passages that they are not skilled enough to attempt. In other words, people who have no business being on the water and out of sight of land regularly get themselves in trouble on the high seas where they then use their EPIRB to facilitate rescue.
Similarly, an emergency indicating beacon for hikers, hunters, and others provides a sense of confidence to those who may not have the skills to get out of a bad situation they should not have encountered in the first place.
I believe there should be areas that are "No Rescue" areas. Yes, you can go into these areas, hunt, fish, or climb as you like. But, if you get your a$$ in a bind, it would be up to you to get your a$$ out of said bind.
Sadly, that's not likely to happen.
An alternative would be for the initiator of a rescue to pay all the costs associated with that rescue. This should be irrespective or whether or not it was a true emergency, or as in the cited case, simply because someone didn't think they could get their personal butt out of a bad jam. In other words, don't use my taxes to help some stupid person out of a jam.
That's not likely to happen, either.
With all that said, I had a GPS and an EPIRB on both my cruising sailboats. However, when I have gone into the wilderness, I have taken topo maps and a decent compass. And I went in prepared for conditions likely to occur. I also provided someone else with details, goals, and timelines I expected to encounter. If I had not returned within 48 hours of my planned finish, they would have notified authorities or gathered a bunch of friends and mounted a search.
I did not and I would not want to take a signal beacon with me into a wilderness area. Yes, a beacon would facilitate rescue, but it's kind of a wussy thing and I believe it helps make a person a little less careful and a little more prone to exceed skill levels.
FWIW,
Crusader
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Yes, a beacon would facilitate rescue, but it's kind of a wussy thing and I believe it helps make a person a little less careful and a little more prone to exceed skill levels.
And therein lies the biggest problem. People now think they can overcome any challenge/obstacle, etc with the newest 'gadget'.
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I have to disagree with you a little CR. Since we all have to pay entry fees to go into these places, not to mention climbing permits, camping permits, and now even waste deposits. ::) A portion of nearly all of these fees goes specifically for search and rescue. Also most of the time SAR guys are volunteers, and most of the time the helicopters used are military, so their use is used as training for the craft and crew. The actual cost of these rescues is usually minimal to the taxpayer. Especially if you consider the REAL waste that goes on with taxpayer money. Don't forget that hunting and fishing licenses also include SAR fees.
I DO however agree with you that someone who initiates a rescue for something other than a real emergency should be liable to pick up a large portion if not the entire cost. Rescues put other people at risk and take resources away from where the may be really needed. I have been on scene for 3 such rescues. 2 on Devils Tower, (both instances were body recovery) and once in southern Utah on a canyoneering trip. One of our guys broke his leg pretty badly, and we were 2 days hike from anywhere in extremely rugged terrain. Yes, we could have gotten him out ourselves, but probably not without injuring him further and putting everyone else at even greater risk. So we initiated rescue, and in that case I felt then, and still to this day believe that we made the right call. No one was ever charged for the rescue as it was deemed to be appropriate by the authorities.
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I have one on my truck. Not Lojack, but a cheaper knock off. I only paid for a single activation in case of car theft. There was an option for an annual fee for constant tracking. I thought about it, then put the brochure away before my wife saw it. ;)
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They've had them for planes since at least the 80's.
It's like any tool, people can mess themselves up with a freaking hammer, they will screw up with these as well.
In my opinion, if someone falls and breaks a leg and some one in the party activates it fine.
If they set it off because they're tired or lonely they should not only pay for the rescue, there should be a 10% stupid fee tacked on.
Might think about including costs of any and all injuries to rescuers as well.
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'Yuppie 911' Calls Taxing Search and Rescue Teams
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2009/10/26/yuppie-calls-taxing-search-rescue-teams/ (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2009/10/26/yuppie-calls-taxing-search-rescue-teams/)
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The solution is simple.
Fools should not be allowed near them.
Rational folks should never leave home without one ;D
Seriously, if you are not a "fool", take one with you. No matter how experienced or how careful and qualified you are, you can find yourself in a situation where it will be needed.
The story of the guy who got his arm pinned in a crevice and had to amputate it to free himself and get back to civilization is a good example. Yeah...maybe he shouldn't have gotten in that situation, but it could have been a rock slide or other event beyond his control.
Had he been carrying a beacon he would still have two arms....of course he wouldn't have had his moment in the spotlight and a book deal.
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They have a use and can be abused.
A few years ago, there was a report on one of the network "news" programs, 20-20, 60 Minutes, don't remember which since I don't watch many. Anyway, it was about the Grand Canyon and how many people walk to the bottom only to find that they have to walk back up! DOH! ;D
It wasn't necessarily about GPS but about the "yuppies" as Ichiban stated that are costing the taxpayer money for their own inexperience and stupidity!
I'm an adventurous guy (or was in my yoot!) but I had my limitations and reasoning, common sense and enough backwoods experience to not kill myself. Had I had the money back in the day to heli-ski in some of the back country like they do today, I may not have survived though.
;)
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Even the most experienced people get hurt, and not necessarily their fault. Shoot, I almost got hit crossing the street with the little white guy and some idiot turning right where I was. IF I spent alot of time in the backwoods I would probably get one, especially with the number of mountain lions we have roaming the whole state.
Kinda the same reason we all have for strapping on a pistol before we hit the door.
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Send them on a hiking trip to Iran!
If you want to enjoy God's gift of the wilderness prepare yourself and act responsibly! I am sick of techno geeks that are great naturalists, but because of electronics have decided they are the world's best frontiersmen.
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The solution is simple.
Fools should not be allowed near them.
Rational folks should never leave home without one ;D
Seriously, if you are not a "fool", take one with you. No matter how experienced or how careful and qualified you are, you can find yourself in a situation where it will be needed.
The story of the guy who got his arm pinned in a crevice and had to amputate it to free himself and get back to civilization is a good example. Yeah...maybe he shouldn't have gotten in that situation, but it could have been a rock slide or other event beyond his control.
Had he been carrying a beacon he would still have two arms....of course he wouldn't have had his moment in the spotlight and a book deal.
We need "beacon control", We should start with a $500 registration process in order to get your "Beacon Carry Permit".
After all, "It's for the children" ! ;D
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We need "beacon control", We should start with a $500 registration process in order to get your "Beacon Carry Permit".
After all, "It's for the children" ! ;D
HA! LOL! I like it, start registering freeze dried food, camp stoves and REI purchases while were at it so we know who the likely violators are.
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Don't laugh, DHS is already trying to keep track of people who make bulk purchases of emergency supplies, especially if they pay cash.
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Don't laugh, DHS is already trying to keep track of people who make bulk purchases of emergency supplies, especially if they pay cash.
I know but somethings you have to laugh at, no matter how much they tick you off or you'll go crazy
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I know but somethings you have to laugh at, no matter how much they tick you off or you'll go crazy
Agreed, laugh or go postal.
If you go postal on them they have cops, and troops etc just sitting around dying for something to relieve the daily boredom.
But they can't do anything but get PO'ed about people making fun of them. ;D
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Personally I think while they are a really cool thing to have when you REALLY need it. Most of the time you can get cell service. Also, most of the trips I take every ounce is critical. I'm not going to take anything that will weigh me down anymore than I already am. It's hard enough climbing with a 40+ pound pack on, I'm not going to add more that MIGHT be of use. Especially when I have already managed to get myself out of 20 years worth of bad situations without it.
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We need "beacon control", We should start with a $500 registration process in order to get your "Beacon Carry Permit".
After all, "It's for the children" ! ;D
Don't forget the training requirements, and the requirement to show proficiency with the device before your permit is issued.
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Personally I think while they are a really cool thing to have when you REALLY need it. Most of the time you can get cell service. Also, most of the trips I take every ounce is critical. I'm not going to take anything that will weigh me down anymore than I already am. It's hard enough climbing with a 40+ pound pack on, I'm not going to add more that MIGHT be of use. Especially when I have already managed to get myself out of 20 years worth of bad situations without it.
I hear what you're saying JC, I used to tear the covers off my map books.
But on the other hand it seems like a gun or a spare tire, when you need it you REALLY REALLY need it.
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True, and I guess I never thought about it in that sense. (too damn self reliant for my own good ;D)
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Don't forget the training requirements, and the requirement to show proficiency with the device before your permit is issued.
And there's your next class, dude!!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
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If you REALLY want to make it in the backcountry, there are really only 3 things you need.
Brains, balls, and enough experience to know which one to use.
The last one is tricky of course, but that's why you should be honest with yourself before planning a trip and know what your abilities truly are. Then plan your trip based on that. When I first got into backcountry sports, I would run into the old crusty hikers and climbers that looked (and smelled) like they lived there.
Today it's GPS guided, solar showered, eco friendly, metrosexual, yuppie pantywaists from Seattle that come clanking down the trail carrying huge packs full of brand new gear bought from a catalog, half of which they will never use, trying to prove that they are still men, and failing MISERABLY!!!!!!!!
Ok, I'm done now.
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What JC just described is about the same as my early years of skiing. I'd be wearing torn jeans, a t-shirt, windbreaker on old broken in boots, skis that I'd found a flea market, mounted my trusty Salomon bindings too, a decent pair of gloves and a pair of sunglasses.
I'd spend all day on the black diamond runs watching boneheads in $1000.00 worth of Decente ski outfits, another 1K worth of equipment that couldn't ski a lick...my best friend and I would run 'em into the woods for fun!
My return to the slopes a few years ago wasn't much different except for the annoying little peckerwoods on snowboards with no sense to get the heck out of the way!
OK, I'm done too....can't ski anymore anyway with a hip implant...crap!
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