The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: twyacht on October 06, 2011, 06:17:32 PM
-
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/foghorn/franklin-armorys-new-ar-15-is-neither-a-pistol-nor-a-rifle/#more-67263
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/XO-26b_800x235.jpg)
Franklin Armory’s New AR-15 Is Neither A Pistol Nor A Rifle And No NFA Paperwork Required
Posted on October 6, 2011 by Nick Leghorn
Short Barreled AR-15s are all the rage these days. They’re light, easy to maneuver, and the recoil from a 5.56mm NATO round is still negligible even with the reduction in weight. The only problem is that in order to get one you need to jump through the ATF’s hoops, pay a $200 tax, and tell them every time you travel with it. In short, it’s a pain. Franklin Armory recently announced a new gun that lets you have all the fun of an SBR without any of the paperwork by exploiting an interesting loophole in the law in a frankly genius way.
A rifle, legally speaking, is designed to be fired using a stock. This doesn’t have a stock and so doesn’t meet the definition. A pistol, legally speaking, is a weapon designed to be fired using one hand. Because this gun has a forward grip it was designed to be fired using two hands and doesn’t meet the definition. That allows it to be classified as an AOW or “Any Other Weapon,” but AOWs have to be less than 23 inches in overall length. This weapon is just a hair over 23 inches, and so falls out of that definition as well. Therefore it’s still a firearm, but not subject to the NFA. As long as you don’t carry it concealed, that is.
The ATF, in a letter to Franklin Armory, confirmed all of this legal stuff was true. That paved the way for them to start selling a gun specifically designed to meet those exact criteria, the XO-26b, and you too can own one for the low price of $1,149.99! Each one comes with a copy of the ATF’s letter, just in case your FFL starts giving you that quizzical look.
Or you could build one, I suppose.
Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes the ATF to reverse their decision?
****
Why Yes, what a splendid idea..... ::)
Where's bafsu, I need some tips.... ::)
-
FTA "AOWs have to be less than 23 inches in overall length." That's new to me.
-
Is it after the AK Underfolder market?
-
I'm likin' it. From their home page,
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
COMPANY PROFILE:
Franklin Armory is part of a California corporation that has been in operation for over 20 years. We specialize in producing legal firearms for restrictive jurisdictions such as California. We also build full feature firearms for “free” states. Either way, every firearm produced at our facility in Morgan Hill, California is made with 100% American made parts & materials.
Our craftsmanship is what sets us apart from the companies that mass produce their firearms. Each rifle, carbine, “other,” and pistol that ships from our facility is hand built with a custom tuned, single stage, Franklin Armory trigger. To ensure quality and consistency, every firearm is then live fire tested by the company President prior to shipment. We believe that products of quality have no fear of time, and we want your next purchase to be perfect right out of the box.
"It is God that arms me with strength and makes my way perfect."
Psalm 18:32
Comes in different calibers as well up to 450 Bushmaster. :o
http://www.franklinarmory.com/index.html
My birthday is coming up next month too..... ;)
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html
-
Ok, by looking at this the only thing that makes it different than any other AR pistol out there is the VFG. Technically a VFG makes an AR pistol into a AOW and requires a $5.00 stamp. I've been told by different sources, including an acquaintance who's a BATFE agent that the magpul AFG is ok on a pistol since it doesn't have any apparatus to completely wrap your hand around like a true pistol grip. There are so many shades of grey that if the wrong LEO sees you with something, legal or not, there's a good chance you get a free ride and a big hassle to straighten things out.
I've been at ranges before where I've explained the laws to LEO's and if done properly and if you get one who doesn't happen to be a total dick or Barney Fife wanna be then it usually ends fine, no guarantees though. When I take any of my NFA stuff out of the house I put a photocopy of my tax stamp form and appropriate statutes folded up in the storage compartment in the stock. If I owned one of these I'd do the same, less the tax stamp of course. They need to lift the entire GCA and all the NFA crap and start fresh, especially on SBR's, AOW's and suppressors. They should all be free to purchase just like any other firearm. I feel the same way about full auto but there's such a stigma there that it will be more difficult. Bottom line is no one is more likely to commit a crime because their rifle has a 12" barrel rather than a 16" one.
-
yeah..the rules are silly and contradictory.
I assume you can't have a short barreled rifle because it becomes too concealable.
On the other hand, I assume you can't have a long barreled and stocked pistol because it becomes to unconcealable?
-
I believe that's the thinking or at least the original intention but I've never seen a SBR that's easier to conceal than a pistol. A glock 17 with a 33rd mag is probably just as devastating as most SBR configurations and a lot easier to hide. I don't understand how a SBR can be considered so evil yet I can take my Kel-Tec Sub2k with a 33rd mag and 16" barrel, fold it and conceal it as easy or easier than most SBR's. I can have it snapped open and in battery pretty damn fast coming out of a coat and now I've got 33rds of 9mm +p coming out of a 16" tube. Even if you have a 5.56 SBR with a 7.5"-10" barrel I can probably do as much damage as you can on targets inside of 50yds. I don't get why one is legal since it folds in half. I don't even so much mind the $200 tax stamps, especially if they would go into some type of gun safety or training fund or a fund for wounded and killed LEO's families or something useful. It's the fact that any time I want one of these I have to wait 3+ months even though I've had them approved in the past and they already know I'm a responsible owner. I'm also not real keen on the government knowing so much about a large part of my firearms collection, the address my NFA stuff lives at and a nice detailed list of what I have.
-
yeah..the rules are silly and contradictory.
I assume you can't have a short barreled rifle because it becomes too concealable.
On the other hand, I assume you can't have a long barreled and stocked pistol because it becomes to unconcealable?
MB's podcast this past week addressed this a bit. The NFA was originally written to ban handguns (and full autos used by the gangsters like Capone, Bonnie & Clyde, Dillinger, et al., but let's focus on the handgun part for now) and anything that could be concealed like a handgun. When the rubber hit the road, no one would back a handgun ban, so the writers took the "handguns" out, but left all of the other crap in there.
-
MB's podcast this past week addressed this a bit. The NFA was originally written to ban handguns (and full autos used by the gangsters like Capone, Bonnie & Clyde, Dillinger, et al., but let's focus on the handgun part for now) and anything that could be concealed like a handgun. When the rubber hit the road, no one would back a handgun ban, so the writers took the "handguns" out, but left all of the other crap in there.
I'm sure that before they dropped the pile of crap on us, they surveyed those same gangsters, Capone, B&C, Dillinger and et. al., (the ones who, as a group, violated every law from petty theft to bank robbery and murder) and found that the great majority of them would obey the NFA law, turn in all their guns and learn how to use knives and clubs effectively.
Wonder where it went wrong? Bush probably didn't push it strong enough....his fault.
-
Supposedly there's a big push around the DOJ to do away with the BATFE. Maybe they can take the NFA, Gun Control Act of 68 and the whole post '86 machine gun crap with them when they hit the door. I know I'm totally dreaming now. I have a better chance of hitting the lotto and throwing down 50k for a nice machine gun.
-
I suspect the push to can the BATFE is the most expedient way to flush the Fast and Furious down the tubes.
We axed the whole Bureau...what more could we do to prove we disapproved of their rogue actions all along and would have done it sooner had we known about it.
No doubt all the functions of the current BATFE, and probably additional ones, will be placed somewhere else.
The name has been changed to protect the guilty.
Worked for ACORN.
-
What I don't like is the proposal has no plans to replace/relocate any of the agents. I know we have way to many government employees and could easily stand losing the total number of BATFE agents and support staff but not all of them are bad. why not do a review of all federal agents and drop the bottom 30% or whatever number needed of poor performers. Move some of the better BATFE agents, yes there are some, to other agencies and drop their dead weight in the process. That's the problem with these government jobs, once they're in place it's almost impossible to get them out. Take the best BATFE agents and use them to replace the dead weight in the DEA, ICE (lots of problems here too, if they dump the BATFE this will be the next hated agency) FBI etc. I know all the agents let go would be able to apply and if they had a good record they'd be very high on the hire list but why go through that trouble.
-
What I don't like is the proposal has no plans to replace/relocate any of the agents. I know we have way to many government employees and could easily stand losing the total number of BATFE agents and support staff but not all of them are bad. why not do a review of all federal agents and drop the bottom 30% or whatever number needed of poor performers. Move some of the better BATFE agents, yes there are some, to other agencies and drop their dead weight in the process. That's the problem with these government jobs, once they're in place it's almost impossible to get them out. Take the best BATFE agents and use them to replace the dead weight in the DEA, ICE (lots of problems here too, if they dump the BATFE this will be the next hated agency) FBI etc. I know all the agents let go would be able to apply and if they had a good record they'd be very high on the hire list but why go through that trouble.
F*ck'em.
"Relocating" Prohibition agents is what gave us the useless money hole called the "War on drugs".
Let take their donut sucking Constitution violating fat asses to the unemployment office like the rest of us "downsized" workers and quit sucking on the tax tit like they were something special.
-
Yeah..and I bet a dollar to that donut that the 30% they picked to keep would be at the other end of the scale from the 30% any of us would pick.
-
Yeah..and I bet a dollar to that donut that the 30% they picked to keep would be at the other end of the scale from the 30% any of us would pick.
That's it right there. If it was done by an independent performance review based on things like closure rates, proficiency etc. then it would be a good idea but when the problems are most likely from the top down they're bound to get it wrong. It just sucks because they do have some good agents and all the other agencies have their share of worthless ones too. It just seems like a good time to clean it all up. Unfortunately it's the government so they'll never get it right.
-
That's it right there. If it was done by an independent performance review based on things like closure rates, proficiency etc. then it would be a good idea but when the problems are most likely from the top down they're bound to get it wrong. It just sucks because they do have some good agents and all the other agencies have their share of worthless ones too. It just seems like a good time to clean it all up. Unfortunately it's the government so they'll never get it right.
The only ones at ATF who actually do their job are the ones who collect taxes.
The rest are just a bunch of azzhole Gestapo wannabee's .
-
The only ones at ATF who actually do their job are the ones who collect taxes.
The rest are just a bunch of azzhole Gestapo wannabee's .
I don't know, that's pretty generalized. I know a couple of the field agents who work my area and they're both really good guys. One of them shoots local 3 gun comps and they're both very pro-2A. The one who shoots comps was a FDLE agent who took a leave of absence when his wife had cancer and was out longer than he planned and ended up losing his job. The only thing he could find was BATFE and he does a good job. Most of the shop owners around here like him as well. I've met about 4 other agents through these 2 guys and they all seem like decent, hard working LEO who are pretty knowledgeable. Maybe all the agents up your way are jack booted gestapo, I guess that's the norm but every Florida field agent I've encountered have been some of the better LEO's I've dealt with. My biggest issue is actually with the tax collectors. My first stamp took 5 days short of 9 months to get back and the fastest one I've gotten was right at 4 months. I know people personally who've waited right at a year to get theirs. If anybody isn't doing their job its the paper pushers.
-
ATF is a tax collection agency, just like Customs.
The rest of it is just badge happy Gestapo BS.
As for the individuals, so what ?
I've worked for shit hole companies too, the fact that I happen to be good at what I do has nothing to do with them.
-
Supposedly there's a big push around the DOJ to do away with the BATFE. Maybe they can take the NFA, Gun Control Act of 68 and the whole post '86 machine gun crap with them when they hit the door. I know I'm totally dreaming now. I have a better chance of hitting the lotto and throwing down 50k for a nice machine gun.
Not necessarily. I've never been attracted to guns that were made expensive because of a law. Laws can change. We saw what happened to the $110.00 Hi-Cap Glock magazines after the Assault Weapons Ban sunsetted. The price plummeted. The same could happen with full auto guns if they allowed the folks to again purchase new ones, instead of just whats out there, creating an artificial high demand by reducing supply by law. (Thanks Regan).
While I admit the possibility is remote of this happening, it is possible. Especially after how badly the current administration has failed with it's liberal, socialist policies. It may be just the backlash we need. If the Republicans sweep the 2012 election, and commandingly take back the Senate, and fortify their position in the House with a bigger majority, it is possible. You know major pro gun groups will be hard at work trying to push their agenda, much like the dems tried to do theirs after Pelosi & Co. took over in 2006.
In 1986 a new, select fire M-16 ran around $1,600.00. About twice what it was actually worth at the time. Now they can run over $25,000.00. That is insane. I'm not saying you'll be able to buy them at hardware stores again, but if they allowed new ones to be bought by civilians, the price would drop like a brick in a swimming pool. That wouldn't break my heart.
-
if you can actaully buy a select fire m16 for 25k, do it. I've not seen any sell under 30k in about 10 years. most go for close to 40.
-
Scottsdale Gun Club here had a select fire M-16 in the plastic wrap, unfired for $25,000.00 for months. They finally sold it. There is no way I could pay that for a weapon that only had a $35.00 sear in it which made it that much more "valuable".
-
Scottsdale Gun Club here had a select fire M-16 in the plastic wrap, unfired for $25,000.00 for months. They finally sold it. There is no way I could pay that for a weapon that only had a $35.00 sear in it which made it that much more "valuable".
As long as it was the gun that was registered and not the sear your ok though. I know a guy that shoots some of the local matches that sold a classic Corvette to buy a never fired, real Colt M-16 for $37,500 and thought it was a better investment than the car. Imagine instead of a registered rifle if you bought one of the registered sear packs for HK from Flemming. If the part that is serialized and registered fails your out your 25k. The good thing is you can own multiple rifles and drop it in so you can in theory have many full autos in different calibers for that one sear pack. You can obviously only shoot one at a time and I'd be nervous about paying that kind of scratch to register a 'wear part" rather than a receiver. I guess if you had that kind of money and wore either out you could just have another machined identically with the same serial numbers then destroy the original. As long as it matches the description and you have the stamp I don't see how they could prove it wasn't it, short of some type of metallurgical testing. Just don't get caught in process.
-
As long as it was the gun that was registered and not the sear your ok though. I know a guy that shoots some of the local matches that sold a classic Corvette to buy a never fired, real Colt M-16 for $37,500 and thought it was a better investment than the car. Imagine instead of a registered rifle if you bought one of the registered sear packs for HK from Flemming. If the part that is serialized and registered fails your out your 25k. The good thing is you can own multiple rifles and drop it in so you can in theory have many full autos in different calibers for that one sear pack. You can obviously only shoot one at a time and I'd be nervous about paying that kind of scratch to register a 'wear part" rather than a receiver. I guess if you had that kind of money and wore either out you could just have another machined identically with the same serial numbers then destroy the original. As long as it matches the description and you have the stamp I don't see how they could prove it wasn't it, short of some type of metallurgical testing. Just don't get caught in process.
I'm not sure, but I think it is the Assembly that matters. What you are proposing would be no different than having spare springs, or replacements for any other expendable part.
-
All that Class III stuff that our range allows, comes with the lovely unwritten clause that the "boys" in blacked out suburbans know who you are, where you are, and can come by to visit your home whenever they like...
Not that they can't do that anyway to lowly folks like me with a C&R, but I'm further down "the list".... :-\
Our Class III dealers have a Thompson for a lot less than $25,000. Most of the others are $14k to 25k...Including a "real" Colt M-16.
with "happy button"...
-
I'm not sure, but I think it is the Assembly that matters. What you are proposing would be no different than having spare springs, or replacements for any other expendable part.
No, I'm saying that say you have a registered M16 and the receiver cracks and you got a clean, 80% receiver then milled it out the rest of the way and put all matching engravings and markings, including serial number on it. You then took your damaged receiver and through it into a furnace and melted it down. You now have a brand new functional receiver that is identical to your damaged one. What proof could there be that this wasn't the original registered receiver. Your paying to register a model and serial number and that hasn't changed. You're not trying to make a clone and have 2 registered guns on one stamp. It's probably not allowed but how could it be proven?
-
I'm not sure, but I think it is the Assembly that matters. What you are proposing would be no different than having spare springs, or replacements for any other expendable part.
Tom, If I understand you correctly, I don't think you can have the spare parts on hand. I think it is refered to as constructive possesion.
As far as register sear vs. receiver goes, I understand that the Norrel trigger packs for the Ruger 10-22 are quite durable, more so than the 10-22 itself. I have heard of 300,000 rounds plus on them with no deterioration in function. When the 10-22 is worn out, the pack is just switched over to a new 10-22.
-
Just for you Bafsu ;D
http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html
-
Just for you Bafsu ;D
http://www.cncguns.com/projects/ar15lower.html
I know somebody who mills his own receivers already. I guess like anything else if you have the knowledge and the right tools there's not much to it.
-
Fixtuering and programming are the biggest problems, and this guy has already figured that part out, need to adjust the programs for different machines but the hard part is done.
-
if you can actaully buy a select fire m16 for 25k, do it. I've not seen any sell under 30k in about 10 years. most go for close to 40.
You aren't looking very hard. Used M16s are still well below 20k. New unfired guns are closer to 20-25.
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19540&query=retrieval
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19532&query=retrieval
New unfired for 24k.
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19529&query=retrieval
-
You aren't looking very hard. Used M16s are still well below 20k. New unfired guns are closer to 20-25.
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19540&query=retrieval
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19532&query=retrieval
New unfired for 24k.
http://subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=19529&query=retrieval
Wow, now that I know I can get one for 13k I might have to rush out and get 2 ;D ;)
-
Well TAB did say that IF you could find them, DO IT! So blame TAB for the expense. haha
-
Back on the original topic, I just don't see any practical use for it.
With no stock it will be no more accurate than a pistol, while taking up much more room.
I suspect the ones that get sold before interest fades will be used at the range once or twice for some "spray and pray" plinking then stuck in the back of the safe.
-
The stock less ARs can be pretty accurate. I read a review a while back of a guy that practiced a cheek weld on the buffer tube that gave him rifle accuracy without having to have the buttstock. Seems to make sense to me.
-
The stock less ARs can be pretty accurate. I read a review a while back of a guy that practiced a cheek weld on the buffer tube that gave him rifle accuracy without having to have the buttstock. Seems to make sense to me.
Actually, I don't see the value of needing the buffer tube and giving up the stock. I guess you save a few ounces, but leave the tube exposed and give up a lot of useability.
Next step would be to put a cheek piece and butt plate on the tube for useability. Then reinforce it for it's own protection.
-
If you add a stock to it, it becomes an SBR requiring a 200 dollar tax stamp.
-
So ? if a short barrel is that important to you pay the $200 instead of wasting $1150 on a gimmick.
-
So ? if a short barrel is that important to you pay the $200 instead of wasting $1150 on a gimmick.
To a lot of people it's not the $200, it's the fact that you now have a federally registered firearm. I know the argument is if you've ever filled out a 4473 or had a NICS background check you can be tracked if they want to. While true if you're a serious enough: collector, gun nut, enter your favorite term here, to pay to own something that .gov views as evil then you are on a even watchier watch list. I know a lot of people will say this is just paranoia but many will not take a chance. I know at least a few people who own many guns, 10 or more, and have never done a background check or filled out a 4473. They either got them through relatives or bought them in private sales. I always try to keep at least half my collection as private sale items that I never did a 4473 on. If it ever looks like they're going to come after all guns they will have to look very hard for some of mine. If they don't know you have them to begin with they'll be much harder to find.
As far as the original topic it is possible to be extremely precise with the pistol buffer tube and a good cheek weld. My issue is the 5.56 round is so anemic from a short barrel why bother.
-
300BLK upper?
-
300BLK upper?
That's my pick
-
So ? if a short barrel is that important to you pay the $200 instead of wasting $1150 on a gimmick.
That's fine if you're in a state that allows SBRs.
-
I am ;D