The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Shotguns => Topic started by: twyacht on October 15, 2011, 09:33:44 PM
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I love my 870 Marine Magnum. Prefer it over the Mossberg. Own a S&W pump action Highway Patrol wood stock scattergun. Nothing says, bad idea, to a bad guy like an American 12g. Even my Stoeger Coach's gun....BUT,.....
The USMC, chose the Benelli M4..... :-\ OK, it's bad a**, and was beat up, fired ALOT, unloved, and abused. However, as good and obnoxious as a promo vid can be, where's the ol' Ithaca Trench Re-birth, of a 12g?
Remington, Stoeger,....etc,...???? Seems like a FAIL to me on our part to put up something that compares.
Geez....Between the Beretta M9, and the Benelli M4, the HK's for special work,.....I'm starting to wonder like Teddy Roosevelt did consulting Winchester.
"Dear Winchester, Thank you for improving my .405 caliber, as we both know, this is a fine caliber, but you, again, ignored stock dimensions, fit and finish..What does an American President have to do to get a proper rifle? Go to England?"
Excerpts from TR's Journal.
Now our USMC, tested, and beat up any and all shotguns they were offered,...and the best is a Benelli.????
Sad an American manufacturer, has to be outdone by an anti gun continent,... :'(
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Remember it's not the "best", it's the last expensive of the best.
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Remember it's not the "best", it's the last expensive of the best.
or the one that meets the spec.
the 870 for example does not due to the safety location.
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or the one that meets the spec.
the 870 for example does not due to the safety location.
Which milspec? The '83, the '95 or is there a newer one?
The Mossy passed all the older ones.
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Doesn't the Sec Def's name end with a vowel?
Just saying....Beretta and Benelli both make fine guns but..........we pushed everything overseas in the last twenty five years, we've lost our manufacturing mojo for the most part.
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Remember it's not the "best", it's the least expensive of the best.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=252338031
Most run $1,600.00+. The M-2 is a couple hundred cheaper. You can get a nice 870 Police for around half of that.
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Doesn't the Sec Def's name end with a vowel?
Just saying....Beretta and Benelli both make fine guns but..........we pushed everything overseas in the last twenty five years, we've lost our manufacturing mojo for the most part.
they have been pushed overseas.....It's like the government is trying to make the manufacture of firearms in this country unnecessary for some reason.
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they have been pushed overseas.....It's like the government is trying to make the manufacture of firearms in this country unnecessary for some reason.
fify
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fify
+100
It has happened on both sides of the aisle for decades. Everything is based on cheap - not inexpensive, but cheap. However, marketing tells us that it is really inexpensive. What really irks me is that at the same time that they tell us how much more we can buy with our money today, and the more they tell us how they are shoring up and increasing production on our soil, they continue to sign agreements that let everything into our country with no quality control, and they sign regulations that handcuff American manufacturers through expensive labor laws and pollution standards that they will not hold foreign manufacturers to.
We have destroyed our own manufacturing and employment base through our own short sighted consumer mentality.
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+100
It has happened on both sides of the aisle for decades. Everything is based on cheap - not inexpensive, but cheap. However, marketing tells us that it is really inexpensive. What really irks me is that at the same time that they tell us how much more we can buy with our money today, and the more they tell us how they are shoring up and increasing production on our soil, they continue to sign agreements that let everything into our country with no quality control, and they sign regulations that handcuff American manufacturers through expensive labor laws and pollution standards that they will not hold foreign manufacturers to.
We have destroyed our own manufacturing and employment base through our own short sighted consumer mentality.
Its like the Wal-Mart ads that say an average family can save $1200 a year shopping there and buying cheap Chinese crap from a non-union workforce largely (at least here in So. Fl.) made up of non-English speaking immigrants. Its probably true. But guess what?
Saving that $1200 means you are underwriting the loss of manufacturing and other good jobs, along with family owned businesses.Basically, it means that you'll only be able to afford to shop at Wally World (or insert company X) because you'll probably be working for them or someone just like them. They tend to leave that part out of the ads. >:(
FQ13
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Its like the Wal-Mart ads that say an average family can save $1200 a year shopping there and buying cheap Chinese crap from a non-union workforce largely (at least here in So. Fl.) made up of non-English speaking immigrants. Its probably true. But guess what?
Saving that $1200 means you are underwriting the loss of manufacturing and other good jobs, along with family owned businesses.Basically, it means that you'll only be able to afford to shop at Wally World (or insert company X) because you'll probably be working for them or someone just like them. They tend to leave that part out of the ads. >:(
FQ13
Everything that you are saying is true. It is what capitalism is based on. Selling to the most customers at the very best price with just enough quality attached to your goods to keep people coming back. The problem is you will never convince people to pay more for less in order to help support our economy. The reason is because they are more worried about their economy. It is the reason Rock Island Armory sells more 1911's than Les Baer. Infuse a $h!tty economy into the equation, and the whole situation multiplies itself.
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Not to start a flame job here but, How about just getting a reliable weapon and learning how to run it REALLY well.All of the guns mentioned are fine. Each has it's own quirks and operation that need to be understood and overcome.The best is just an opinion.
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Not to start a flame job here but, How about just getting a reliable weapon and learning how to run it REALLY well. All of the guns mentioned are fine. Each has it's own quirks and operation that need to be understood and overcome.The best is just an opinion.
Very true. One does not "need" a $1,650.00 Benelli to defend your home with. A $250.00 Maverick 88 will work just as well in the proper hands. In fact, for self defense I would trust most any pump over a semi auto, based on the simpler is better concept. My Mossberg 590 A-1 Mil-Spec is capable of doing anything I could possibly want a defensive shotgun to accomplish. And I could have 3 of them for the price of a single Benelli M-4.
I'm not knocking the Benelli, it is a fine weapon. But considering it's priced higher than a entry level Browning Citori, I just can't justify it. Remington 870 Police Models, and the Mossberg Mil-Spec Models are well proven in battle, the streets, as well as in the field, and have been for decades. I just don't see how a person could go wrong with any of them. Besides, you can take the $1,000.00+ you'll be saving and spend it on slugs and buckshot, and you'll be a hell of a lot more deadly with the practice that ammo will buy you.
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Or Remington could just move the safety to the top to accomdate ambi operation or gloved hands. How much would that cost them? Its not like its new tech, just a better idea.
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Or Remington could just move the safety to the top to accomdate ambi operation or gloved hands. How much would that cost them? Its not like its new tech, just a better idea.
I don't think Remington is interested in redesigning the 870 for the military market. They've sold millions of them to both civilians and law enforcement over the years.
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billt, I agree aboutgetting a good quality gun and using the left over money for other things- like some quality training to RELLY learn how to run th gun. Gunsite, Magpul,and others have excelent training. Louis Awerbuck is an absolute surgeon with a scattergun.
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I prefer a pump shot gun.
The only advantage I see in a semi is that you would be better able to continue the fight one handed with the semi.
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I don't think Remington is interested in redesigning the 870 for the military market. They've sold millions of them to both civilians and law enforcement over the years.
And they'll sell millions more to the military, left handers like me, and folks who live up north and wear bulky gloves the day they move that damn safety? How hard can it be?
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And they'll sell millions more to the military, left handers like me, and folks who live up north and wear bulky gloves the day they move that damn safety? How hard can it be?
Not hard at all. They're just not interested in doing it, or else they would have.
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Or Remington could just move the safety to the top to accomdate ambi operation or gloved hands. How much would that cost them? Its not like its new tech, just a better idea.
It could get damned expensive if they ran into a copyright infringement with Mossberg who has been using the tang mounted safety for about 100 years.
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There would also be a part interchangabilty issue. how many parts would now no longer fit a 870? 10? 15? I am not in the gun biz, but I know what it takes to run one, no way I would change it. It would never make you any money.
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Unless you got the mil contract for 1.5 million units (spaced over ten years of course).
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It could get damned expensive if they ran into a copyright infringement with Mossberg who has been using the tang mounted safety for about 100 years.
So has every double barrel shot gun ever made for a lot longer than that. Its old tech.
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1.5 million units is not alot actually to supply something like that there would have to be a huge capital investment for machines/ space/ man power. you make less per unit with gov contracts. so you don't want to take away production to do it.
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redesigning the safety to be reversible would be cheaper than having to redesign the entire trigger group to use a tang safety and easier to use with a pistol grip stock.
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My old 870 Express has done me well over the years. I have added ghost rings and a youth stockto shorten the pull when I have armor. A side saddle for extra ammo and call it good.
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Strider, try one of the AR style telescoping stocks .
That way it fits just as well with or without the armor.
Clothing is the issue up here, tee shirt in the summer, Arctic Parka in the winter .
I put a Knoxx stock on my Mossberg , I didn't care for the recoil reduction, but the adjustability was great.
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Tom, Thanks for the suggestion. I did have an adjustable stock on it for a while but found the cheek weld a bit off for me. Plus, I am not a big fan of pistol grips on a scatter gun. Just a personal preference. If it works for you I say go for it!
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They Benelli got the contract for it met the specifications that were set. I would prefer a FN SLP made in SC instead however. Each time I reach for a shotgun in a combat zone its a Rem 870 MCS usually with a 14" bbl.
CD
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:) AS A FAMILY WE HAVE 5 OR 6 MOSSBERGS OF VARIOUS GAUGES & WE LOVE THEM!! MY DAUGHTERS REALLY LOVE THEIR 20 GAUGES!! JUST MY TWO CENTS , FOLKS. LOL. 8)
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This topic as evolved a long way over the years. One thing that comes to my mind as I read it is we need to quit thinking like Walmart customers, and think like hunters, shooters, and defenders. A firearm is a tool, and we should purchase the best quality tool we can afford. Now I admit that dollars don't always mean quality, but we should look at suitability for the task and the user first, quality and reliability second, service and parts availability along with company strength (are they here for the long haul) third, and finally take the previous and match our budget.
Too many times we fall into the Walmart mode and ignore everything but price. Can you say dumb downed consumer boys and girls?
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Value! That is the word I was searching for and could not find. We need to focus on the best value we can find.
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Value is a very hard thing to pin down. Its diffrent for every one. its like that with all tools. Example a cheap craftsmen socket wrench( boy thier quality has gone to shit) is fine for the truck tool box, and fixing something on the side of the road. Its not what I grab when I am at home. To me the $25 is a good value for something that is not going to be used much, but not something I want to use all the time. its the same with guns.
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And that TAB is the point I was trying to make in my list of points. What is right for me may not be for you or your situation. What is right for me in hunting may not be right in plinking or self defense, and my favorite USPSA and Bullseye gun would put me in a bad way on the wrong end of a self defense trial.
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I second what M58 and TAB say, to me a Perrazi shotgun would be nothing but trade goods toward the Mossy 500 or Rem 1100 that I might actually have a use for.
Your mileage WILL vary. ;D