The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on October 17, 2011, 02:59:37 AM
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The administration announced that we would begin a total pullout of all US forces from Iraq except for a few protecting US diplomats and the like. The administration had hoped to keep a few thousand as trainers and to provide for regional security. The deal breaker was over the issue of whether US troops would be subject to Iraqi law over alleged crimes, or whether they would be tried by the UCMJ. The Iraqis insisted on Iraqi law. The administration refused to concede. So we are leaving. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? On the one hand we established a democratically elected government and they have told us to leave. If we are serious about democracy and not being an occupying power we will go. Likewise, we are spared a whole lot of blood and treasure defending folks whose elected leaders want us gone. On the other hand, once we leave, who is to say that the Shia majority won't make Iraq a puppet state of Iran? Who is to say Al Queda won't return?
The question is this. Do we simply walk away gracefully and say FU, don't come crying to us when the idiots take charge, or do we become an occupying power without even the fig leaf of governmental approval? The main argument here being that 4,400 plus US troops died there, do we just walk away when we are asked to?
Me, I say we take this as a gift and say "So long and thanks for the fish". YMMV. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
FQ13
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Until we get an actual American govt , that will support troops they send into combat, and fight to win instead of striving for stalemate, the fewer US troops being sent into no win situation the better.
After 10 years of training the Iraqi's should be pulling their own weight by now, the fact they are not simply shows they do not deserve our help which they are not paying for.
The fact is that we could stay there 100 years and within one year of our leaving they will descend into a 3 way civil war.
Let a few of the politicians get blown up by Iranian trained, equipped, and financed terrorists and they will be kissing our ass to come back,
Besides, we need to get out of "Bush's 2 wars" so we can devote more assets to the 2 Obama started.
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Though I supported the invasion, once we found no WMDs' I've been saying we should get the f*#k out. Nothing since has changed my opinion. Get out, get out fast and get out completely. I could care less about that sh*thole!
In a about two weeks we may just be getting shot at with our own armament but that's pretty much a given.
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Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.
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Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.
We are in total agreement!
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Our declared purposes were the removal of Saddam Hussein and Forcing Iraq to comply with the UN rulings concerning his WMD.
That was done years ago, nation building was never a stated objective so screw it.
We usually don't do very well at turning 3rd worlders into civilized humans any way.
While it is now an historical foot note it is important to keep in mind that even though SH had divested himself of the WMD program, 2 of the UN resolutions he failed to comply with required notification and free inspection, his failure on those 2 counts legally justified the invasion regardless.
What a joke. But not surprising. You really are going to say that the invasion of Iraq was "justified"? Was it justified under the Constitution?
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Third choice for an answer:
Yes, we should immediately pull out our troops because the Iraq "war" was illegal, immoral and unconstitutional from the outset. It is an admitted fact the Bush administration lied about the WMDs (and even if their lies had been true, it is still not a justification for war, especially considering that whatever WMDs Hussein ever had he got from the US). You cannot on the one hand call for violating the Constitution to enforce UN mandates and on the other hand jump up and down and cheer for upholding the second amendment, or any other part of the Constitution. To do so reveals you as someone who has been compromised by Orwellian newspeak (you know like Tom).
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What a joke. But not surprising. You really are going to say that the invasion of Iraq was "justified"? Was it justified under the Constitution?
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution
Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals,[2][7] H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133,[8] and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23.[9] It was signed into law as Pub. L. No. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it was perfectly legal under the Constitution
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http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution
Introduced in Congress on October 2, 2002, in conjunction with the Administration's proposals,[2][7] H.J.Res. 114 passed the House of Representatives on Thursday afternoon at 3:05 p.m. EDT on October 10, 2002, by a vote of 296-133,[8] and passed the Senate after midnight early Friday morning, at 12:50 a.m. EDT on October 11, 2002, by a vote of 77-23.[9] It was signed into law as Pub. L. No. 107-243 by President Bush on October 16, 2002.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it was perfectly legal under the Constitution
Really? Congress declared war on Iraq? Ha ha. You should be banned from ever speaking of the Constitution on this site ever again. It is scary to think that some people give credence to the stuff you post.
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You should read the Constitution some time.
Try the link I posted, it's simple enough for any one.
That way you won't sound like such a totally clueless parrot.
Your posts today have been ignorant enough for a college graduate.
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You should read the Constitution some time.
Try the link I posted, it's simple enough for any one.
That way you won't sound like such a totally clueless parrot.
Your posts today have been ignorant enough for a college graduate.
Maybe you should try doing some reading yourself. Perhaps then you wouldn't sound like the burned out crazy uncle that everyone avoids at the family reunion who lashes out at people because someone hasn't changed his Depends on time.
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Really? Congress declared war on Iraq? Ha ha. You should be banned from ever speaking of the Constitution on this site ever again. It is scary to think that some people give credence to the stuff you post.
Congress authorized the use of Military forces for the Iraq Resolution. The man quoted chapter and verse of the Resolution and you're still questioning this?
There was even a court case challenging the Resolution that upheld the law by the Circuit Courts.
Military action was justified based on what we knew at the time, ask Colin Powell! The fact that he's now changing his tune to support another opinion or political ploy is a moot point.
We're all aware that war hasn't been declared by Congress since 1941 but that didn't stop John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Regan, George HW Bush or Bill Clinton from using military action against a perceived enemy or terror faction did it? Hell, even that dimwit peanut farmer probably did as well...
You're welcome to post what you please Mauler but you're becoming a bit of a stalker...never a good sign!
Koolaid is best drunk with a bit of ice and a shot of common sense.
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Congress authorized the use of Military forces for the Iraq Resolution. The man quoted chapter and verse of the Resolution and you're still questioning this?
There was even a court case challenging the Resolution that upheld the law by the Circuit Courts.
Military action was justified based on what we knew at the time, ask Colin Powell! The fact that he's now changing his tune to support another opinion or political ploy is a moot point.
We're all aware that war hasn't been declared by Congress since 1941 but that didn't stop John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Regan, George HW Bush or Bill Clinton from using military action against a perceived enemy or terror faction did it? Hell, even that dimwit peanut farmer probably did as well...
You're welcome to post what you please Mauler but you're becoming a bit of a stalker...never a good sign!
Koolaid is best drunk with a bit of ice and a shot of common sense.
Really? You appear to be a bit of a jackass.
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Really? You appear to be a bit of a jackass.
Maybe so but, I'd rather be an jackass than a misinformed troll. Guys like you come and go pretty regularly and you're tolerated for the most part. Enjoy your little slice of notoriety, we've seen it before and there will be hundred more like you once you get bored...
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Maybe so but, I'd rather be an jackass than a misinformed troll. Guys like you come and go pretty regularly and you're tolerated for the most part. Enjoy your little slice of notoriety, we've seen it before and there will be hundred more like you once you get bored...
I have a proposal for you. Do one of two things: Either be a man and find way to run your mouth to my face or STFU because anything you say to me after this really says "I am a coward who is a real tough guy on the internet".
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I have a proposal for you. Do one of two things: Either be a man and find way to run your mouth to my face or STFU because anything you say to me after this really says "I am a coward who is a real tough guy on the internet".
Really! I've made two (2) posts in response to your drivel and that's all it takes for you to threaten me?
I'm a pretty reasonable guy, go back and read my posts. I'm anything but a hostile internet ninja pal!
Grow up youngster, I'm done here.
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I have a proposal for you. Do one of two things: Either be a man and find way to run your mouth to my face or STFU because anything you say to me after this really says "I am a coward who is a real tough guy on the internet".
Emphatic disagreements are generally just taken in stride here.
This type of comment is the only thing I know of that will get you booted from the site.
As for telling you these things to your face , some one might if you were not hiding behind an anonymous "screen name".
Since Tim and I both put our real names and locations on every post I guess we can tell who the internet cowards are.
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Gee mauler, what a downward progression to animosity, vitriol, and childish name calling and idle threats, when your responded to with facts, links, historical references, and a wee bit of life exp.
Sounds to me, after reducing all your credibility and "taking the heat" of political debate, you need to get back to the Occupy (whatever town) Group you came from, they have missed you.
For a bit I thought you were not a troll, my bad...
To the OP, from FQ, who can take the heat of political debate, and differing points of view, it's time to leave Iraq, A Diplomatic contingent, (heavily armed) with Close Air Support would be a good idea.. Stockpile MOAB's, for the possibilities of small bits of trouble, and pray we don't need to turn them into polished glass....
Than we can let the UN handle it... ::)
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Emphatic disagreements are generally just taken in stride here.
This type of comment is the only thing I know of that will get you booted from the site.
As for telling you these things to your face , some one might if you were not hiding behind an anonymous "screen name".
Since Tim and I both put our real names and locations on every post I guess we can tell who the internet cowards are.
My name is Roy Baker. I live in South Georgia. You can find me on facebook. If you want futher information about how to find me feel free to contact me.
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Gee mauler, what a downward progression to animosity, vitriol, and childish name calling and idle threats, when your responded to with facts, links, historical references, and a wee bit of life exp.
Sounds to me, after reducing all your credibility and "taking the heat" of political debate, you need to get back to the Occupy (whatever town) Group you came from, they have missed you.
For a bit I thought you were not a troll, my bad...
To the OP, from FQ, who can take the heat of political debate, and differing points of view, it's time to leave Iraq, A Diplomatic contingent, (heavily armed) with Close Air Support would be a good idea.. Stockpile MOAB's, for the possibilities of small bits of trouble, and pray we don't need to turn them into polished glass....
Than we can let the UN handle it... ::)
So you don't have a problem with the "animosity, vitriol, and childish name calling" coming from Tom and Timothy? I didn't start any of this bullcrap. Go back and look at all of my posts if you think I came on here to attack people. Apparently there is some sort of unwritten rule that it is okay for people to make ad hominem attacks when someone posts facts that makes people think or question their programming. People who run their mouths and talk to people in a way that they would not do if they were standing in front of the recipient are chickensh*t in my opinion. I am very mannerly and respectful up to a point, but I don't take kindly to this internet warrior garbage.
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"animosity, vitriol, and childish name calling" are fairly standard fare in political debates, adults take it in stride.
Foolish invitations to physical violence such as you posted are not tolerated.
And on a gun related forum they are not very smart in the event someone were to take you up on it.
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"animosity, vitriol, and childish name calling" are fairly standard fare in political debates, adults take it in stride.
Foolish invitations to physical violence such as you posted are not tolerated.
And on a gun related forum they are not very smart in the event someone were to take you up on it.
Sadly, you are probably correct that those things are fairly standard fare. It is sad that people cannot think outside their little boxes, but resort to attacking the messenger. Where I come from adults don't insult others because they disagree with facts or opinions presented by that person. I don't let my mouth write checks that my a*s can't cash. I almost never have a problem with anyone because I am mannerly and respectful to everyone, even those who generally don't deserve it. But when I do have a problem it is because someone has crossed a line. I don't enjoy such unpleasantness, but sometimes it is unavoidable.
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So...what was my major offense Mauler? Stalker, troll or dimwit peanut farmer?
I've said nothing about your continued diatribe about Ron Paul. There are a lot of things I like about his talking points but I don't believe he has a chance in heaven or hell in winning the nomination for the Presidency!
If I've offended you by my offhanded comments than I apologize but rest assured that I'm in fear of no man on this planet! My wife, OTOH, scares the bejeesus out of me!
Cheers... ;)
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So...what was my major offense Mauler? Stalker, troll or dimwit peanut farmer?
I've said nothing about your continued diatribe about Ron Paul. There are a lot of things I like about his talking points but I don't believe he has a chance in heaven or hell in winning the nomination for the Presidency!
If I've offended you by my offhanded comments than I apologize but rest assured that I'm in fear of no man on this planet! My wife, OTOH, scares the bejeesus out of me!
Cheers... ;)
I appreciate your apology, and I accept. Let me also say that I apologize to you. I don't talk to people on the internet any differently than I would if I were talking to them in person. I don't insult people because they offer facts or opinions that I don't like. I realize that tone, inflection and sarcasm are impossible to convey in the printed word. I cut up and call my friends all sorts of names, but it is joking and in good fun. I don't do that with people I don't know. You are a good man to extend the laurel branch.
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I appreciate your apology, and I accept. Let me also say that I apologize to you. I don't talk to people on the internet any differently than I would if I were talking to them in person. I don't insult people because they offer facts or opinions that I don't like. I realize that tone, inflection and sarcasm are impossible to convey in the printed word. I cut up and call my friends all sorts of names, but it is joking and in good fun. I don't do that with people I don't know. You are a good man to extend the laurel branch.
Thanks!
Now, rest assured that if you stick around long enough you'll find that we're all a bunch of like minded boneheads. Some of us know the moderators personally and talk frequently because we've become a family of sorts. A family of miscreants that define the term dysfunctional and we will have our spats and piss and moan on occasion.
We're Patriots, or at least by our individual definition of that term, who love this country and weep for the condition it's in daily.
no animals were harmed in any way during this post.....
Timothy
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The "big picture" mauler, is Obama has to go. There is no perfect candidate, and this forum is a great place to rant, bit**, moan, gripe, call attention to, debate, even argue.
But if you have a legitimate question, issue, problem, or experience about a firearm, I brush any and all political differences aside, and offer my best personal exp. or a bit of knowledge, or recommend another member that maybe an expert in your particular firearm. (and there are several here.)
The politics thread generally will bring out the most passionate beliefs, and opinions in all of us. The bottom line is we here at DRTV can respect that.
We don't need a constant soapbox. The banter, name calling, passionate political debate of different opinions is an attribute to DRTV. Diversify your message. Obama is the one that has to go.
Guess what? If Ron Paul is the nominee, I won't feel as bad as I did voting for McCain.
But we're all big boys, (and girls here), and kinda police ourselves when it comes to certain responses. (Because if Marshal'ette finds out we are in deep sh**, and have to spend time in the corner)....
If you want a rather informed perspective, PM fightingquaker, we've already hijacked his thread :-*...But FQ, has been here for some time, doesn't always see things as other's here do, but backs it up, doesn't back down, and MOVES ON...
Stick around, stand down a bit, and get to know us. We can take it, and dish it out, and also remember, that we are all (By God), Americans in a troubled time.
We need to stick together, more than tear each other apart.
All the best mauler. I will apologize for inferring you are a troll. As I posted before, I think your a good guy.
We have probably more in common than you might think.
Tom Watchorn
Coral Springs, Florida
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"Guess what? If Ron Paul is the nominee, I won't feel as bad as I did voting for McCain. "
Same here.
Politics, religion, and women, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.
I haven't said anything here that I would not say to some ones face, although here I kept the language relatively clean.
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The "big picture" mauler, is Obama has to go. There is no perfect candidate, and this forum is a great place to rant, bit**, moan, gripe, call attention to, debate, even argue.
But if you have a legitimate question, issue, problem, or experience about a firearm, I brush any and all political differences aside, and offer my best personal exp. or a bit of knowledge, or recommend another member that maybe an expert in your particular firearm. (and there are several here.)
The politics thread generally will bring out the most passionate beliefs, and opinions in all of us. The bottom line is we here at DRTV can respect that.
We don't need a constant soapbox. The banter, name calling, passionate political debate of different opinions is an attribute to DRTV. Diversify your message. Obama is the one that has to go.
Guess what? If Ron Paul is the nominee, I won't feel as bad as I did voting for McCain.
But we're all big boys, (and girls here), and kinda police ourselves when it comes to certain responses. (Because if Marshal'ette finds out we are in deep sh**, and have to spend time in the corner)....
If you want a rather informed perspective, PM fightingquaker, we've already hijacked his thread :-*...But FQ, has been here for some time, doesn't always see things as other's here do, but backs it up, doesn't back down, and MOVES ON...
Stick around, stand down a bit, and get to know us. We can take it, and dish it out, and also remember, that we are all (By God), Americans in a troubled time.
We need to stick together, more than tear each other apart.
All the best mauler. I will apologize for inferring you are a troll. As I posted before, I think your a good guy.
We have probably more in common than you might think.
Tom Watchorn
Coral Springs, Florida
I appreciate it, and I apologize to you as well if I offended you.
Roy Baker