The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: crusader rabbit on October 28, 2011, 06:46:48 AM
-
I heard some chatter from the talking heads on this subject, and tended to dismiss it out of hand. But, I found that the report from the FBI seems legit. Is this another in the continuing threats to our liberty and freedom?
Gang members have been signing up with the United States Armed Forces, posing a "significant criminal threat" to law enforcement, according to a report by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).
"Gang infiltration of the military continues to pose a significant criminal threat, as members of at least 53 gangs have been identified on both domestic and international military installations," the report says, resulting in American gang graffiti in Iraq, among other things.
The rest of the article is here: http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/fbi-reports-gang-infiltration-us-military
Our faithful Oath Keepers in the military need to be aware of this if they are not already. This causes me nearly as much concern as the Odamna presidency. Sheesh...
What say you?
Crusader Rabbit
-
I heard some chatter from the talking heads on this subject, and tended to dismiss it out of hand. But, I found that the report from the FBI seems legit. Is this another in the continuing threats to our liberty and freedom?
The rest of the article is here: http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/fbi-reports-gang-infiltration-us-military
Our faithful Oath Keepers in the military need to be aware of this if they are not already. This causes me nearly as much concern as the Odamna presidency. Sheesh...
What say you?
Crusader Rabbit
It's bad. On the one hand, if it's true, it will provide the BGs with better organization, tactical skills and maybe a pipeline of military goodies.
Secondly, regardless of true or false, the .gov will use this to clamp down on freedoms and liberties - and rights - even more.
-
Though I can't provide a source at the moment, I believe this has been an ongoing problem.
-
Though I can't provide a source at the moment, I believe this has been an ongoing problem.
I remember reading something similar in the late 80's.
It's nothing new and it sometimes straightens out the gang members.
-
It doesn't help when you have judges telling gang bangers to join the military or go to jail.
-
It doesn't help when you have judges telling gang bangers to join the military or go to jail.
True but at least in the military, the kid has a fighting chance of getting straightened out. In prison hs chances are basically zero!
Now, if gang bangers are joining the military to become proficient in military operations, go home after their hitch and teach the other bangers the tactical stuff, then we have a problem.
-
This has been a problem for decades. There have been episodes of "Gangland" and one or more of the "Somebody Investigates..." programs on it. The Army at one time stated they had at least 1% of the total force affiliated with a gang IIRC. Think about that for a moment. Not a big number but still is approx 14,000 gang bangers in uniform with the current strength. A lot of the problem stems from there being no policy concerning gang membership. You can't be an active member of a gang, but there is no consistant definition of what "Active" means. So Johny Crip joins and recruits but doesn't do any "work" for the gang and he's OK. If he pops for dealing, it's only dealing not gang related activity.
At Lemoore we had started the connections to get a seat on the Gang Task Force. We wouldn't be able to make arrests or do anything off base but did want the intel to see what was happening on base. I left before it really got started.
Yes, they are using military training to become better banger. There have been well planned ambushes on LEOs and other gangs, led by former military members. Some of them are decorated veterans that have two or more combat deployments down range.
The other problem is the ones that join to find access to heavier equipment. I'd put money on some of the heavy weapons found in Mexico came from Mexican and US inventory through MS-13, Norteno, Sureno, or other Hispanic gangs.
-
Just look to Mexico and the Zetas to see what military training does for a gang. In my experience most of the "gang members" I ran into in the army were posers, maybe they hung out with some gangs one time after band camp but that was about it. I did know a few soldiers that joined to get away from inner city life, including gangs, and would have had no problem, still wouldn't, going into combat with any of them.
-
In the mid 1800's "Volunteer Fire Companies" in cities were composed of gang members, like NY's "Dead Rabbits".
At the out break of the Civil war they enlisted as entire units.
Look into the histories of Units like Thomas Meagher's "Irish Brigade", or the NY "Fire Zuaves".
For that matter you might take a close look at some of the Legions recruited to fight in Romes many wars.
It's always happened, enforce the laws it's no big deal.
As for "heavy weapons" from MS 13, you'd do much better to look to their roots in the Salvadoran Army death squads.
As for "well planned ambushes" , I will point out that any one with an imagination can do that, it doesn't take a freaking Napoleon.
What is a mugging besides an ambush ?
-
As for "heavy weapons" from MS 13, you'd do much better to look to their roots in the Salvadoran Army death squads.
As for "well planned ambushes" , I will point out that any one with an imagination can do that, it doesn't take a freaking Napoleon.
What is a mugging besides an ambush ?
Not disagreeing with you, but there are plenty of reports of weapons coming up missing from unit armories across the Services. Stuff like M-60, M-240, and M-16s find there way somewhere. I'm sure most of the stuff in Mexico is probably Mexican or Central American but some are likely from here too.
A January 2007 article in the Chicago Sun-Times reported that gang members in the military are also involved in the theft and sale of military weapons, ammunition, and equipment, including body armor.
The FBI’s 2007 report on gang membership in the military stated that the military's recruit screening process is ineffective, and allows gang members/extremists to enter the military. The report listed at least eight instances in the previous three years in which gang members had obtained military weapons for their own use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military)
The ambush I'm referiring specifically to was described in the Gangland (Season 1 episode 11 "Basic Trainig"). A Marine, recently returned from Iraq, killed two officers and injured one from Central CA. It was VERY obvious from the security video that it wasn't the run-of-the-mill banger; effective use of cover, sliced the corners, well placed shots, offenisve cover fire while retreating. Most banger's spray and pray, this guy was aiming at the officers, not many "wasted" shots. He also didn't exactly back off when the officers were able to return fire.
-
I still don't think we are seeing anything to get especially worried about, nothing we did not see in the 20's and 50's.
We have been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan for 10 years, with increased numbers of combat veterans it is only reasonable to expect an increased number to be involved in crime of all sorts.
Hell, Whitey Bulger was in the Air Force.
If I remember right in The Godfather Micheal Corleone had been a Marine in the Pacific.
My point is that it is not a new thing.
-
The new gangs, especially the Mexicans, aren't like the old gangs. As far as I know the old gangs didn't go to such extremes, like decapitating their rivals.
-
The MSM media is making a big to do about an Iraq Veteran, Scott Olsen 24, clocked in the Occupy Oakland Flare up with a tear gas grenade to his melon. Head shot with a tear gas grenade.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/27/iraq-veteran-injured-in-occupy-oakland-clashes-now-in-fair-condition/
I guess the other side of the spectrum from gangs, well,....let me rethink that,... :-\
-
The MSM media is making a big to do about an Iraq Veteran, Scott Olsen 24, clocked in the Occupy Oakland Flare up with a tear gas grenade to his melon. Head shot with a tear gas grenade.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/27/iraq-veteran-injured-in-occupy-oakland-clashes-now-in-fair-condition/
I guess the other side of the spectrum from gangs, well,....let me rethink that,... :-\
F*ck him, just because he's a veteran doesn't make him some kind of "saint".
It doesn't give him some deep secret insight into the problems of America, or how to solve them.
If he wants to hang out with a bunch of communists he deserves to get clocked.
He was a veteran ? Big deal, So weren't Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Whitman, and John Murtha.
-
Got to agree with Tom. If you're going to protest and do stupid $h!t when the cops start lobbing CS grenades to break up a riot if you get hit you deserved it.
-
I'm not contradicting your position. Just posting how the MSM, is MUM about the real intentions of this agenda.
The MSM is making a big stink about this, not me.... Muslims and Nazi's, Socialists, and Communists may see things differently, but they are becoming allies to bring down this country.
The gang aspect, as was posted, is not new, military tactics were trained into folks that joined the U.S. military that have now taken it to an insurgent level against our own country.
Hence the last line in my post....
-
F*ck him, just because he's a veteran doesn't make him some kind of "saint".
It doesn't give him some deep secret insight into the problems of America, or how to solve them.
If he wants to hang out with a bunch of communists he deserves to get clocked.
Amen!
He was a veteran ? Big deal, So weren't Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Whitman, and John Murtha..
What's worse than a slime ball that served in the military?
One that didn't!
-
I don't see many gang bangers being able to hang 4 years in the miltary.
-
I don't see many gang bangers being able to hang 4 years in the miltary.
My point. Many of the ones who do have found something they were searching for before hand and stay for 20+.
-
If they were open about it they could be processed out.
Some do find the "family" and security that caused them to join the gang but others can't wait to get out. MOst bangers I've delt with have spent their whole life "fitting in" whether the hood, prison, or otherwise. Four years in the Service is nothing to 18 years in South Central.
-
Ya know, I just realized something.
The OWS crowd is complaining about the 1%ers. Outlaw biker gangs have always considered themselves the 1%ers. I think we should put them together for a meeting! ;D
-
Ya know, I just realized something.
The OWS crowd is complaining about the 1%ers. Outlaw biker gangs have always considered themselves the 1%ers. I think we should put them together for a meeting! ;D
Now you're thinking J !
We can invite the Mexican Mafia, Crip's , and some Yakuza for "Cultural diversity. ;D
-
Sort of a "Last 1% Standing" type of competition ;D
-
I'm going to break the trend a little. I'm going to say it may be a bigger problem than we give it credit. Gangs and gang signs have shown up in military zones worldwide. Many of these people are essentially born and raised in a gang; they aren't looking to replace their "family" with the military. Some of the larger gangs operate in a highly structured hiearchy a lot like the military. They come in and learn the skills they were sent there to learn, do their minimum time, or get kicked out. Once back in their hood with their crew, they can spread their newly acquired training. This is probably more of a problem in larger cities, but I wouldn't bet on their allegiance to the military being greater than their allegiance to the gang.
-
I disagree MKM. The fact of gang membership indicates criminal activity, arrests and convictions are grounds for refusal by the services, so the percentage of veterans who gang members would still be lower than in society at large.
-
I disagree MKM. The fact of gang membership indicates criminal activity, arrests and convictions are grounds for refusal by the services, so the percentage of veterans who gang members would still be lower than in society at large.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the percentage of veterans who are gang members is higher than society at large. I have no doubt that most veterans are upstanding members of their communities, and I am very grateful for them.
With that said, no one can deny that there are always a few bad apples. It has also been shown that gang members are present in the military. The few members who are specifically sent in for training are the ones I'm talking about.
To take it back a few years, almost all of the original outlaw bikers were veterans. ;)
-
I disagree MKM. The fact of gang membership indicates criminal activity, arrests and convictions are grounds for refusal by the services, so the percentage of veterans who gang members would still be lower than in society at large.
There's a waiver for just about anything. Recruiters have quotas and some how gone to great lengths to meet them. IIRC it was a Navy recruiting district a few years ago that faked ASVAB scores AND diplomas to get kids in from some bigger city, Chicago I think (go figure). The quotas are currently fairly low and they are able to meet them legitimately right now but a few years ago that wasn't the case. If you walked in the door the Recruiter would do just about anything to get you shipped. Now they can be a little more selective and won't process as many waivers, but still do.
-
Jenvis, took my son to the recruiter back in May and did the whole paperwork thing, found an 11B opening, with a Jan/Feb '12 ship date, and thought we were good to go. Turns out he was diagnosed with ODD, Obstanance Defience Disorder, when he was 14 or so in addition to the ADD every boys is diagnosed with. The doctor wrote a letter for my son on the ADD that he was off medication, he did that on his own, and was "cured" of his ADD but the ODD slipped past us, turns out it was a deal breaker. He needs to go back to the doc to have the ODD thing taken care of but he's working construction and can't take time off for anything other than girls and heading to the lake (girls in bikinis). ::)
He's 18 and I can only do so much from here, he's up in Montana, but even if he could get approved it would be the end of next summer before he shipped out.
-
Being "pig headed " is a "disorder" now ?
WTF ?
That used to be treated with a kick in the ass.
-
He should keep trying if that is what he wants to do. Has he considered SeaBees? If he's already working construction and if he doesn't mind it...(Go Navy)
Not making light of the situation, but I'm glad I joined before they had a "disorder" named for being a PITA ;D Sometimes I think they are trying to make everybody have a mental condition.
-
Being "pig headed " is a "disorder" now ?
WTF ?
That used to be treated with a kick in the ass.
Unfortunately when we moved 5 years ago he went to live with his grandparent who didn't want to put a boot in his butt until it was too late. The fights between him and his sisters were getting more physical and they needed to be seperated before dad lost it.
I was against it but I was the only one out of the 5 of us that were involved. It may have saved our relationship, he still looks up to me and seeks my approval, but we'll never know what could have been.
-
He should keep trying if that is what he wants to do. Has he considered SeaBees? If he's already working construction and if he doesn't mind it...(Go Navy)
Not making light of the situation, but I'm glad I joined before they had a "disorder" named for being a PITA ;D Sometimes I think they are trying to make everybody have a mental condition.
Really not all that funny. A French philosopher named Michael Foucault wrote a book called "Discipline and Punish'. The summary was that in modern society power is maintained by defining the desired behavior as being "normal" and those that don't fit in are defined by "experts" as being delinquent, diseased or deviant. He proved his point by writing histories of prisons, asylums, schools and of sexuality. These were areas where the "normal" and "deviant" were defined and policed. Be a stubborn kid? We have a classification for you, one that will brand you and delegitimize you, and by doing so strengthen the ones in charge. Its scary stuff, but it rings very true. Its social control that operates through classification and internal policing. We define our nature by trying to force ourselves into the "normal" mode. In essence we become our own jailers. All too true. :-\
FQ13
-
Really not all that funny. A French philosopher named Michael Foucault wrote a book called "Discipline and Punish'. The summary was that in modern society power is maintained by defining the desired behavior as being "normal" and those that don't fit in are defined by "experts" as being delinquent, diseased or deviant. He proved his point by writing histories of prisons, asylums, schools and of sexuality. These were areas where the "normal" and "deviant" were defined and policed. Be a stubborn kid? We have a classification for you, one that will brand you and delegitimize you, and by doing so strengthen the ones in charge. Its scary stuff, but it rings very true. Its social control that operates through classification and internal policing. We define our nature by trying to force ourselves into the "normal" mode. In essence we become our own jailers. All too true. :-\
FQ13
My son's second grade teacher was a long time class mate and I asked her opinion of the ADD/ADHD wave. She said it was concocted by a bunch of people that never had sons. She had two at the time and saw him as just one of the boys. Was he a handful? Sure, but so were my two brothers and I and we turned out okay. Well... my youngest brother is a preacher but the other two of us are fine :D
-
My son's second grade teacher was a long time class mate and I asked her opinion of the ADD/ADHD wave. She said it was concocted by a bunch of people that never had sons. She had two at the time and saw him as just one of the boys. Was he a handful? Sure, but so were my two brothers and I and we turned out okay. Well... my youngest brother is a preacher but the other two of us are fine :D
I had a teacher try and convince us that my daughter, a 2nd or 3rd grader, needed medications. I told the teacher and Principle in no uncertain terms that that was NOT going to happen. Either figure out a way to teach my child or get replaced! I'd work four jobs to pay for private schools.
My daughter is now nearly 27 and managing accounts at a local bank. She graduated from a public school system!
She also has her CCW...