The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: bafsu92 on November 01, 2011, 08:44:52 AM
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I guess they realized the platform will grow a lot stronger if they stop charging everyone royalties to use it:
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute ("SAAMI") has adopted the 6.5 Grendel as an official SAAMI cartridge. As a result of the cartridge's official recognition, Alexander Arms will relinquish the trademark "6.5 Grendel."
Bill Alexander states: "One of the primary purposes of trademarking the name was to protect the integrity of the design. With the adoption of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge standard by SAAMI, the design is now protected, and any confusion in the marketplace as to the specification of the cartridge has been eliminated."
SAAMI's formal adoption of the design specifications for the cartridge has led Alexander Arms to announce that it will relinquish its federally-registered trademark and that "6.5 Grendel" to be the common commercial name for a cartridge that adheres to the specifications adopted by SAAMI.
Alexander Arms is proud that a cartridge of its design has received this important designation, and is pleased to take this important step in the continued market development of this breakthrough cartridge, which is perfectly matched to the AR-15 platform.
http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/248069 (http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/248069)
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I guess this eliminates the reason for Les Baer creating the .264 LBC-AR.
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Wonder of the popularity/success of the 300 AAC Blackout and it's being SAAMI had anything to do with it?
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Wonder of the popularity/success of the 300 AAC Blackout and it's being SAAMI had anything to do with it?
MB mentions in today's blog that it may have something to do with the way Freedom Group is pushing the .300 Blackout.
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Pretty much. They can still call it whatever they want but bottom line Grendel ammo is going to be a lot easier to come by. I think Alexander saw they were going to be passed by with 300 blackout and made a strategic move to save themselves. It does still have better long range potential so maybe it will last now.
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Pretty much. They can still call it whatever they want but bottom line Grendel ammo is going to be a lot easier to come by. I think Alexander saw they were going to be passed by with 300 blackout and made a strategic move to save themselves. It does still have better long range potential so maybe it will last now.
I don't really see the 6.5 Grendel and the .300 Blackout as remotely the same thing. The Grendel seems to be an awesome multi purpose cartridge capable of much longer range effectiveness than the 5.56. The Blackout appears to me to tailored for the specific niche of those wanting to shoot subsonic and suppressed. I realize that you can load it up, but even then it is really no more than a 7.62x39 ballistics wise.
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I don't really see the 6.5 Grendel and the .300 Blackout as remotely the same thing. The Grendel seems to be an awesome multi purpose cartridge capable of much longer range effectiveness than the 5.56. The Blackout appears to me to tailored for the specific niche of those wanting to shoot subsonic and suppressed. I realize that you can load it up, but even then it is really no more than a 7.62x39 ballistics wise.
For an alternative above the 5.56 in the same platform they both can be loaded to do pretty much the same thing up to about 300 yards. The Grendel will shoot flatter than the 300 beyond that but for most tactical applications they can be interchanged. The 300 has the benefit of being able to be suppressed better than any other caliber in the AR platform so that gives it a big leg up if suppression is in your wants and needs. As far as being no more than a 7.62X39 that's not really true. The ballistics out of a 9" barreled 300 blackout are pretty much the same as the ballistics of 7.62X39 from a 16" barrel, close but still a significant improvement, especially since the 7.62X39 has never really worked well from the AR platform. I've shot both Grendel and 300 Blackout (as well as 6.8spc) quite a bit and just got rid of all 3 Grendel platform rifles I had in favor of the Blackout. I personally will rarely if ever need to take a shot over 300 yards so for me the 300 is a way better choice with all the benefits it offers and no need to stock special magazines, spare bolt parts etc. There are already a lot more options for factory loaded ammo as well.
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I personally will rarely if ever need to take a shot over 300 yards so for me the 300 is a way better choice with all the benefits it offers and no need to stock special magazines, spare bolt parts etc.
My thoughts exactly, and I like the big, heavy, slow, quiet bullet option too. My father-in-law has some property that has a great spot for a range but the concern is the noise since its up on snob hill, so silencers are on my short list along with a 300 Blackout AR.
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For short range I would rather have a Grendel loaded with 90gr flat-based bullets running around 3000fps, better terminal performance than boat-tails and more secondary effects from the higher velocity, plus I can always switch mags and run heavier rounds for longer range and/or better penetration.
Too many of these "Which round is better" debates are based on a myopic view of what we need, what we need is what is going to win the fight. Yes you might almost never need anything bigger than a 5.56, until you do. I have humped a 7.62NATO MBR rather than risk not having enough gun when I need it, I think the Grendel would be an adequate replacement for that, the 5.56, .300 Whisper, 7.62x39, etc. are not IM (not so) HO.
I want, not just long range, but penetration and the ability to kill targets behind cover, I also want to be able to kill medium to large game and do it out to 600 yards or a bit more, the 7.62NATO does this, I think the 6.5 Grendel will probably do this (and yes I plan to test it well before I switch), the mousegun calibers might do it if Tinkerbell wiggles her ass right, but I don't plan to depend on that fickle little tart.
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For short range I would rather have a Grendel loaded with 90gr flat-based bullets running around 3000fps, better terminal performance than boat-tails and more secondary effects from the higher velocity, plus I can always switch mags and run heavier rounds for longer range and/or better penetration.
Too many of these "Which round is better" debates are based on a myopic view of what we need, what we need is what is going to win the fight. Yes you might almost never need anything bigger than a 5.56, until you do. I have humped a 7.62NATO MBR rather than risk not having enough gun when I need it, I think the Grendel would be an adequate replacement for that, the 5.56, .300 Whisper, 7.62x39, etc. are not IM (not so) HO.
I want, not just long range, but penetration and the ability to kill targets behind cover, I also want to be able to kill medium to large game and do it out to 600 yards or a bit more, the 7.62NATO does this, I think the 6.5 Grendel will probably do this (and yes I plan to test it well before I switch), the mousegun calibers might do it if Tinkerbell wiggles her ass right, but I don't plan to depend on that fickle little tart.
It's all personal preference. I've shot a couple deer and a lot of hogs using both grendel and blackout and I kept the blackout and sold all my grendel rifles. More range of ammo in blackout 90gr-220gr factory loads. I feel like the 150gr blackout will bust through cover much better than a 90gr grendel and have seen it first hand shooting into thick brush. To me I get performance close enough to a 308 without the weight and limited capacity to be as good of an alternative as it gets. If I lived out west with bigger game and more open space I might feel differently though.
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Bafsu, If some one had a .308 and a .300 Blackout, could they build loads for both calibers using the same bullet ?
Say in the 140 - 160 gr range.
For example an AR 15 and an AR 10 both using the same projectile.
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Bafsu, If some one had a .308 and a .300 Blackout, could they build loads for both calibers using the same bullet ?
Say in the 140 - 160 gr range.
For example an AR 15 and an AR 10 both using the same projectile.
I know you asked Bafsu, but I'll chime in with my two dull pennies and say a big 10-4.
The first time I shot a .300 Blackout, my friend didn't have any loose .308 bullets in the loading house, so he just pulled a handful of 168gr Matchkings out of some of his competition .308 ammo (they hadn't been crimped yet) and loaded them into the Blackout cases so I could try it in his cut-down bolt action.
Basically, whatever bullet weight range you have for the standard .308/.30-06 should also work in the .300 Blackout.
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I know you asked Bafsu, but I'll chime in with my two dull pennies and say a big 10-4.
The first time I shot a .300 Blackout, my friend didn't have any loose .308 bullets in the loading house, so he just pulled a handful of 168gr Matchkings out of some of his competition .308 ammo (they hadn't been crimped yet) and loaded them into the Blackout cases so I could try it in his cut-down bolt action.
Basically, whatever bullet weight range you have for the standard .308/.30-06 should also work in the .300 Blackout.
And how did that turn out? Obviously, you're still alive to talk about it! ;D
Most of the specs I've seen, like Hornady's proposed .300BLK ammo for 2012, have ca. 210/220 gr for subsonic, and half that for supersonic. Kinda curious as to how something in between the 2 limits would work in supersonic.
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I know you asked Bafsu, but I'll chime in with my two dull pennies and say a big 10-4.
Yep.
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And how did that turn out? Obviously, you're still alive to talk about it! ;D
Most of the specs I've seen, like Hornady's proposed .300BLK ammo for 2012, have ca. 210/220 gr for subsonic, and half that for supersonic. Kinda curious as to how something in between the 2 limits would work in supersonic.
It really was a sweet shooter.
No recoil, no noise (sub-sonic with a 'can'), and accurate to minute of beer can. ;)
I don't remember the brand name of the powder he used, or how many grains (sorry, I may have posted it in the original thread I had about shooting it, so I'll try and find it).
**EDIT: found the thread and I was mistaken on bullet weight, they were 170gr (possibly either Berger or Lapua).
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=17024.0
It was subsonic out of a 16.5" barrel the 170gr bullets bounced at about 250-300 yards and was pellet gun quiet through a suppressor.
As soon as we both get free time at the same time, I am going over and we plan to do more in-depth ballistics testing. From what he has posted on here, Bafsu has way, way more trigger time with it than me....and in several guns.
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And how did that turn out? Obviously, you're still alive to talk about it! ;D
Most of the specs I've seen, like Hornady's proposed .300BLK ammo for 2012, have ca. 210/220 gr for subsonic, and half that for supersonic. Kinda curious as to how something in between the 2 limits would work in supersonic.
I've been mostly shooting a 150gr factory load so I can't imagine a 168gr would be much more of a stretch. I just picked up a case of some 130gr at a good price: http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AGU300SUPER&name=Gunn+.300+Blackout+Supersonic+SOST+130grn+20rd+box&groupid=388 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=AGU300SUPER&name=Gunn+.300+Blackout+Supersonic+SOST+130grn+20rd+box&groupid=388) so I'm curious to see how that does. I've got a friend who's been hand loading a 175gr load that he really likes. I believe he said he's getting a little under 1600fps from a 16" barrel but don't quote me on that number I'd have to verify it.
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So basically, the Blackout is a .308 short and the only difference from the standard AR 15 are the chamber and bore dimensions ?
SWEET ! ;D
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For an alternative above the 5.56 in the same platform they both can be loaded to do pretty much the same thing up to about 300 yards. The Grendel will shoot flatter than the 300 beyond that but for most tactical applications they can be interchanged. The 300 has the benefit of being able to be suppressed better than any other caliber in the AR platform so that gives it a big leg up if suppression is in your wants and needs. As far as being no more than a 7.62X39 that's not really true. The ballistics out of a 9" barreled 300 blackout are pretty much the same as the ballistics of 7.62X39 from a 16" barrel, close but still a significant improvement, especially since the 7.62X39 has never really worked well from the AR platform. I've shot both Grendel and 300 Blackout (as well as 6.8spc) quite a bit and just got rid of all 3 Grendel platform rifles I had in favor of the Blackout. I personally will rarely if ever need to take a shot over 300 yards so for me the 300 is a way better choice with all the benefits it offers and no need to stock special magazines, spare bolt parts etc. There are already a lot more options for factory loaded ammo as well.
I based my statement about the Blackout being equivalent to the 7.62x39 on the Blackout's wikipedia page which shows a 125 grain bullet at 2250 fps out of a 16 inch barrel. This is basically what I get out of my 16 inch VEPR and SKS. Wiki may be incorrect on this. I agree that the Blackout should be fine out to 300 yards. If, however, you are going further than that, I think the 6.5 Grendel would be far superior. Apples and oranges.
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What makes the .300 Blackout preferable to the .300 Whisper? Both are based on the .221 Fireball. I think shoulder angle is different, but other than that I don't know of other differences. The Whisper should go in an AR as well as a Blackout?
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What makes the .300 Blackout preferable to the .300 Whisper? Both are based on the .221 Fireball. I think shoulder angle is different, but other than that I don't know of other differences. The Whisper should go in an AR as well as a Blackout?
It appears, availability and several case wall issues observed by J.D. Jones, the Whisper's creator.
From the Whisper article on Wiki:
Cases for the .300 Whisper can be formed from common and plentiful .223 Remington brass by sizing and trimming to length. However, J.D. Jones has recommended against this, citing the difference in case thickness at the neck (compared to the .221 Fireball) as a potential issue. This problem can be exacerbated when military 5.56x45mm cases are used. (The Whisper name is trademarked thus: the only firearms with a .300 Whisper chamber are those from J.D. Jones and Thompson Center, which licensed the name. All other guns are cut to .300/221 which has different chamber specifications than the Whisper, particularly in neck wall thickness.
Because the .300 Whisper is a wildcat cartridge there were no established Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) specifications for the chamber reamers, and the necks were cut to allow for standard .308 neck thickness, which is approximately the same thickness as produced from forming .223 brass. Typically only guns with Whisper chambers will have problems with .223 brass—.300/221 chambers work very well with .223 brass, and the .223 brass is considerably stronger than .221 brass.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper
I don't think the Blackout has these loading issues and there is more than one place to buy the barrels and such.
From the Blackout Wiki page:
Wildcats such as the 300 Whisper and 300-221 addressed these issues but their widespread use in single shot handguns along with the lack of an industry standard cartridge dimension meant that a great number of the popular loads on both the supersonic and subsonic end of the spectrum were less than ideal in the AR pattern weapons.
Many of these rounds required an excessively long overall cartridge length that would prohibit feeding in a STANAG magazine while using powder charges that were not compatible with the pressure requirements of the M4 carbine. This was particularly noticeable when using subsonic ammunition in conjunction with a silencer as short stroking and excessive fouling would occur similar to that which was seen in the earliest variants of the M16 in Vietnam.[5]
By keeping the M4 in mind as the primary host during load development the designers were able to work up a host of cartridges that would satisfy not only the ballistic requirements set forth but also ensure mechanical reliability with the fewest changes to the weapon itself with only a simple barrel change being necessary for a complete conversion.
300 AAC BLACKOUT was approved by SAAMI on January 17, 2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC_Blackout_(7.62%C3%9735mm)
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What makes the .300 Blackout preferable to the .300 Whisper? Both are based on the .221 Fireball. I think shoulder angle is different, but other than that I don't know of other differences. The Whisper should go in an AR as well as a Blackout?
No Whisper is made from 221 fireball cases where blackout comes from 5.56/.223. So to answer your question on what makes Blackout better is the brass is about 70% cheaper for blackout.
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So basically, the Blackout is a .308 short and the only difference from the standard AR 15 are the chamber and bore dimensions ?
SWEET ! ;D
No, really Remington 30AR is really a .308 short, Blackout is really .223 fat. It uses a .223 bolt where the Rem 30AR uses a .308 bolt.
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No, really Remington 30AR is really a .308 short, Blackout is really .223 fat. It uses a .223 bolt where the Rem 30AR uses a .308 bolt.
Either way you want to phrase it you get a far more versatile carbine that can use the same projectile as your long range rifle and the only non stock item is the barrel. Bolt, mags etc are all standard "off the shelf" items and it saves a little room on the reloading bench since you only need 1 type bullet.
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Either way you want to phrase it you get a far more versatile carbine that can use the same projectile as your long range rifle and the only non stock item is the barrel. Bolt, mags etc are all standard "off the shelf" items and it saves a little room on the reloading bench since you only need 1 type bullet.
Definitely, if you already shoot AR15's you probably want to stick to the blackout since you'd have the parts interchangeability but if you're an AR10 shooter you may want the Remington 30AR since you should be able to use the same bolt and some other parts.