The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: twyacht on November 02, 2011, 05:19:19 AM
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Rick Scott was chastised, belittled, and demonized for not creating a high speed train from Tampa to Orlando with Fed Stimulus Money. Even though the majority of Floridians didn't want it. Gov. Scott, said it would leave the State on the hook for hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, there are always cost over-runs, and delays.
Ya' know what? He was/is right.... California is finding this out the "hard way"....Go Moonbeam Go!!!!!
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/11/tell_me_this_isnt_a_government_project.html
November 1, 2011
Tell me this isn't a government project
Rick Moran
The proposed bullet train - so called because taxpayers will feel like pointing a gun to their head after the true costs of the project are revealed - between San Francisco and Los Angeles has seen a teentsy weentsy increase in costs over the two years since it was proposed.
Cash strapped and broke California is about to build a $100 billion high speed rail system that nobody wants, that the private sector won't back, and that the state will have to borrow massive amounts of money in order to get the project off the ground.
The Mercury News:
Faster than a speeding bullet train, the cost of the state's massive high-speed rail project has zoomed to nearly $100 billion -- triple the estimate given to voters and more than enough to run the entire state government for a year.
What's more, bullet trains won't be up and running until at least 2033, much later than the original estimate of 2020, although that depends on the state finding the remaining 90 percent of the funds needed to complete the plan.
The new figures come from a final business plan to be unveiled by the California High-Speed Rail Authority on Tuesday, though some of the details were leaked to the media, including this newspaper, on Monday. Officials at the rail authority did not respond to repeated requests for comment Monday.
Gov. Jerry Brown on Tuesday was expected to endorse the long-awaited plan, the first major update to the project in two years and the last before the federal deadline to begin construction next year. But state legislators, who were already skeptical, will tear through the plan starting Tuesday before deciding whether to start building, or to kill the project.
The new business plan pegs the price tag at $98.5 billion, accounting for inflation -- more than double the estimate of $42.6 billion from two years ago, when it was already the priciest public works development in the nation. It's a little less than triple the estimate of $33.6 billion voters were told when they approved the project
Yes, you read that correctly. The boondoggle now costs three times as much as when the voters first approved the measure. An honest government, a transparent government, a responsive government would take the project back to the people and have them vote again.
But this is California we're talking about so none of those definitions apply.
So where is the money going to come from?
With the Golden State nearly broke, it now plans to secure funding largely by borrowing more, the Associated Press reported, though specifics were unclear. About 20 percent would come from the private sector.
Until now, the state had been relying on more than $15 billion from the federal government, $10 billion from private investors and $5 billion from local governments. But the state hadn't gotten any closer to raising the money in the three years since voters approved the plan.
The bullet train project, which would link San Francisco and Los Angeles with the nation's first high-speed rail line, has seemed to be a dream for job-hungry politicians, unions and business groups.
Like Brown, the mayors of San Jose, San Francisco and Los Angeles are also in favor, saying it is pivotal to start quickly and create jobs by taking advantage of a $2.2 billion federal grant that would expire next year.
Welcome to Obama's future America.
*****
Good Call Gov. Scott. Thank you.
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Sadly this is a story we will never read in Florida newspapers.
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Liberal logic, let's piss away $80 billion we don't have in order to snag $20 billion in tax payer money.
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I don't see high speed rail, in and of itself, as a scam. The way the money was distributed, with plenty of "hooks" is though. The US could have already had high speed inter-city rail transportation if the gov't had invested half its freeway building money in the 40s to rail infrastructure. Look at Asia and Europe. They have freeways but more poeple still take the train. You can get almost anywhere by train with a 5 minute walk to and from the station in Japan. You see some traffic here and there, but nothing like cities here, since most poeple and freight are railbound. We're to dependant on our cars.
Now to catch up it'll cost more than if we'd done it 50+ years ago.
The Feds have so many strings attached to any money coming out of DC it's a shame. For every $1, I'd wager almost $.45 is to go to something other than the intended project. At the same time all the regulations you have to follow to get anything built costs more. Where do the delays and overruns come from, regulations enforcement, not the project itself. Our Rescue Squad here has been fighting over a year to get permits for our new station. We still have to pay on the land, but also have to pay extra for the lawyer and architect to modify the proposal everytime one of the innumerable local, state, and Federal agencies we send it to kicks it back for changes, starting the whole process over. That's just a relatively small building in one town. Now look at the scope of putting better rail service from LA to SF and the number of local and county gov'ts involved. Any one Joe Bloat politician says "No, I think it should do X" and everybody has to go start over. Requirement creep is a b!tc4.
Then there are the NIMBY's (Not In My Back Yard). Railroads are paying Billions in rebuilding grade crossings or completely rerouting long existing lines because some knucklehead moved in near the tracks and decided trains are to loud or to dangerous for his kids to be around. You buy a house near a rail line or airport and complain about the noise when they were there first, get the hell over it. Tell your kids to stay away from the tracks and maybe SUPERVISE them a little. Ranges, prisons, hell even WalMart can't get away from the NIMBYs. They want prisoners locked up but not near them. Ranges, hell no "Its unsafe for the children and to loud." Try and find land for a range anywhere near a town and see what happens. All of the court hearings and redesigns to appease the NIMBYs: Billions in extra cost.
Oh, if so many people were against the project than how did the ballot measure get passed? Intercity rail works. CA and the Notheast Corridor (DC to Boston through NYC) can't get enough of it. There are four major CA intercity commuter rail lines. Metrolink covers just north of San Diego (Oceanside) to Lancaster and Ventura, and East to San Bernadino. Average weekday ridership is 41,000 by May 2011. A survey found that 90% of users during a typical weekday in 2009 would have previously driven alone or carpooled and the system replaced an estimated that 25,000 vehicle trips
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrolink_(Southern_California) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrolink_(Southern_California))
Right now the only way to get from LA or San Diego to SF is to take a train to Santa Barbra change to a bus to Oakland, and another bus to SF. Or a bus from LA to Burbank and train to Oakland, bus to SF. Not very efficient. I regularly go on travel to LA and would love to visit my parents near Oakland if I could get there in a reasonable amount of time. Driving is 6-8 hours, the train to Oakland is 8-10 currently. High speed rail would be closer to 3-4.
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I agree with Jnevis in principle. BUT, unfortunately Florida has no public transportation to speak of, and our zoning boards are hopelessly in the pockets of developers. As a result we have no real urban centers worth speaking of. Its all a mass of suburban sprawl. Its just a series of strip malls, preplanned housing developments and light industrial parks. There is almost no inner city rail (that would require a city) and the bus service is such an after thought that most bus stops aren't even covered (a great idea in a state with blistering heat and torrential rain ::)). As a result, no one rides the bus who doesn't have to, as you'll wind up getting to work soaking wet from rain or sweat.
Given that this is the case, who will take this amazing train when once you get off you have no way to get where you are going unless you are going to the airport, downtown, or want to pay for a cab? If we'd been smart fifty years ago, we could have planned a lot better and saved billions in road construction and expansion by good zoning and building proper public transport like the Northeast. As it is, I think its too late. :-\
FQ13 who will say that Governor Voldemort finally got something right
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There are several considerations you are overlooking J.
Hind sight is always 20/20, but at the end of WWII the nation had the most extensive rail system in the world.
On the other hand the nation was facing 2 major problems, millions of returning troops and an industrial base that had just lost all of its contracts.
The best option that could be found to create jobs, and keep industry from dying was to promote the idea of personal freedom symbolized by the automobile, this kept factories open making cars and supporting that industry plus the increased traffic helped justify the military's promotion of a nation wide "autobahn type road network for the more flexible movement of troops and equipment, which in turn created a boom in the construction industry.
As for the actual solution to the current problems I think increased standard rail shipment and more wide spread use of local bus lines is a more practical solution since in most areas the basic infrastructure already exists.
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I didn't overlook them, they're bogus reasons.
I think just as many jobs could have been created in upgrades to rail AND road infrastucture. Budd and Pullman were bought by overseas companies and evetually closed because they were only barely hanging on from the end of WW2 to the early 80s. They stayed open building small numbers of cars for metro transits, not the large orders of transcon cars prior to WW2. The only passenger car manufacturers you'll see in the US now are Japanese (Nippon Sharyo), French (Alstom), and Canadian (Bombardier) with some rebiuilds coming from US shops that are now bankrupt or closed. Lots of available jobs lost.
As far as motive power, EMD, a former division of GM, eventually moved most of it's building to Canada. It is now owned by Caterpillar and opened another facility in Muncie IN last year, it's first engine was for Mexico. GE still builds in the US, with plants in Erie and Grove City PA. MPI/Wabtec is growing and it's plant is in Boise ID, but doesn't have nearly the market share of the other two. GE and MPI build one passenger engine for every four-six freight motor, maybe higher. EMD got out of the passenger business completely in 2001.
Mines (coal), auto parts, and containers are keeping it all together for the Class 1s, but shortlines are dropping off like flies, or merging to stay alive. More industries are relying on truck to get things from the factory to consumer, even to rail transfer points when they used to have a railhead right up to the factory. Thank the NIMBYs for that.
As for FQs post, I totally agree. If there is no underlying mass transit, no amount of money is going to get rail transit to work. That is the advantage that CA and the Northeast Corridor has, lots of INTRA-city transit to compliment the INTER-city transportation.
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Scott might have stopped the High Speed Rail program, but he approved the Orlando commuter rail project that costs. $1.2 Billion.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/199352/250/Scott-approves-Orlandos-commuter-rail (http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/199352/250/Scott-approves-Orlandos-commuter-rail)
He is not the big cost cutting savior he makes himself out to be.
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Scott might have stopped the High Speed Rail program, but he approved the Orlando commuter rail project that costs. $1.2 Billion.
http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/199352/250/Scott-approves-Orlandos-commuter-rail (http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/199352/250/Scott-approves-Orlandos-commuter-rail)
He is not the big cost cutting savior he makes himself out to be.
While the rest of us may disagree on the details, we all are agreed that Commuter rail actually does serve a purpose.
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While the rest of us may disagree on the details, we all are agreed that Commuter rail actually does serve a purpose.
It's working in Boston and the burbs but I don't know if it's making a profit in doing so! My kid would much rather ride the "T" into Boston for the day and not worry about her car, parking, theft, etc....and she's gone armed on occasion. I avoid the city in it's entirety but that's just me. Tom will attest to the nastiness of the city of Boston! A few good blocks surrounded by the dregs of humanity!
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They have a few "good" blocks ?
Where ?
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They have a few "good" blocks ?
Where ?
The corner the Sam Adams Brewery is on and Yawkey Way! ;D
I don't know, I haven't been there since the Tigers won the World Series in 1984! :P
My kid goes on occasion though I'd prefer she didn't...
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Last time I was in Boston was 2000 when I found out they tore down the "Combat zone" ;D
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Last time I was in Boston was 2000 when I found out they tore down the "Combat zone" ;D
What happened? Did the City take it over and start losing money on whores?
Mumbles Menino and his merry band of thieves couldn't run a liquor store and make a profit!
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No, they wanted to "clean up" the city.
More wasted money, they shut down the whores and drug dealers who were actually do business and left the thieves in city hall.
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No, they wanted to "clean up" the city.
More wasted money, they shut down the whores and drug dealers who were actually do business and left the thieves in city hall.
Penicillin and an AC-130 Gunship on loan to the Micks in Southy should do the trick. Send all those guidos back to NYC where they belong...
No offense to any guidos out there... ;D
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2 words, Billy Bulger. ;D
Whitey was the honest brother ;D
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Hey, I liked the North End. Great Italian food, $10 for two lobsters at a bar and a lot of US history. Plus I got bonus points for walking into a 7-11 at 11 pm and asking the cashier for a six pack of Sam Adams and a box of .38s (yes it was a dare). The expression on the cashier's face was priceless. When I explianed to him that it was normal practice for his chain in Texas and I didn't understand why he couldn't comply, I thought his head would explode. ;D All in all, I enjoyed my visit.
FQ13
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Hey, I liked the North End. Great Italian food, $10 for two lobsters at a bar and a lot of US history. Plus I got bonus points for walking into a 7-11 at 11 pm and asking the cashier for a six pack of Sam Adams and a box of .38s (yes it was a dare). The expression on the cashier's face was priceless. When I explianed to him that it was normal practice for his chain in Texas and I didn't understand why he couldn't comply, I thought his head would explode. ;D All in all, I enjoyed my visit.
FQ13
Mafia Central, Prince Street, home of the Angiulo brothers.
History ? you bet, Way in the deepest dark alleys they still can find bits of Molasses.
Google the Boston molasses flood some time . ;D
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Hey, I liked the North End. Great Italian food, $10 for two lobsters at a bar and a lot of US history. Plus I got bonus points for walking into a 7-11 at 11 pm and asking the cashier for a six pack of Sam Adams and a box of .38s (yes it was a dare). The expression on the cashier's face was priceless. When I explianed to him that it was normal practice for his chain in Texas and I didn't understand why he couldn't comply, I thought his head would explode. ;D All in all, I enjoyed my visit.
FQ13
If I'm going out to dinner, the last thing I'm going to order is pasta......