The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: mkm on November 09, 2011, 09:58:43 PM
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I've done a little research on the sub 2000 and really like the concept. I like the small size and think the magazine and ammo compatiblity with my pistols would be great. I'm a big fan of having multiple firearms that are compatible with each other and only to have to stock up on one caliber, especially being on a tight budget at the moment.
Almost all of the discussion on here is several years old; so I thought I would bring it up again. I know several of you have or have had them. What do you think of them? Those of you who've had them for a long time, have they held up well? If you've gotten rid of one, what was the reasons for doing so?
God willing, it will only ever get shot on the range, but I would like to be able to trust it as a truck gun or similar. They aren't going to win any beauty awards, but I'm ok with that (I own three Glocks [my 19 is pretty, I don't care what you say]).
Thanks in advance.
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I'm there with you, I think they are a damn cool concept and really wish Hi-point got the memo on taking popular pistol (cough, Glock) mags. There is the JR carbine in .45 that does the same thing, but I've never seen one or heard a word about it since it was announced. The Kel-tec has been around for awhile and a few folks here own their pistols. I'd like to hear reviews from carbine owners as well.
FQ13
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I'm very happy with mine, it's my truck gun. I've got it with my G17 and 3-17rd mags and 5-33rd mags in a laptop bag. It's a nice handy package that nobody looks twice at. I've put a few hundred rounds of mixed ammo through it with no issues. The drawbacks, the sights are pretty crappy, low quality. I bought a railed handguard that rotates so you can still fold it completely for about $125 (can't remember the brand offhand but could research it) that works really well. I put a Burris mini dot (Burris copy of aimpoint T-1) on it and it's a nice little 50-75 yard max carbine. The triggers kind of suck when new but really smooth out after 100 or so rounds. The best thing is they're cheep, I've got about as much in the optic, rail and mags as I do in the gun itself.
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Thanks bafsu92, you're one of the ones I was hoping to hear from. I actually had planned to get a laptop case for storage too; it seems the most discrete yet functional. I'm looking for one that accepts G19 mags and have finally started purchasing some 33 rounders. I'm too invested in G19 mags to get one that only accepts G17 mags. That rail sounds like a good idea. I'll probably keep it fairly stock for a while until the budget rebuilds.
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Thanks bafsu92, you're one of the ones I was hoping to hear from. I actually had planned to get a laptop case for storage too; it seems the most discrete yet functional. I'm looking for one that accepts G19 mags and have finally started purchasing some 33 rounders. I'm too invested in G19 mags to get one that only accepts G17 mags. That rail sounds like a good idea. I'll probably keep it fairly stock for a while until the budget rebuilds.
You'll have to buy the G17 model and cut the grip down. I've never done one but it looks like a real easy mod. I know there are a few youtube videos demo-ing the procedure.
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Look into the Mec-Tech (I believe it is). They have a Carbine upper that uses your pistol lower and mags. I haven't fired one but it is interesting especially if you have, say, 2 Glocks. You can use one as is and use the other lower on the Carbine or you can pick up a Lone Wolf Dist. frame and have it dedicated to the Carbine. KOOL with 33 round mags.
FWIW
Richard
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Look into the Mec-Tech (I believe it is). They have a Carbine upper that uses your pistol lower and mags. I haven't fired one but it is interesting especially if you have, say, 2 Glocks. You can use one as is and use the other lower on the Carbine or you can pick up a Lone Wolf Dist. frame and have it dedicated to the Carbine. KOOL with 33 round mags.
FWIW
Richard
Wouldn't that get into SBR territory?
FQ13 who will again wonder why Glock doesn't just make a damn carbine with interchangeable mags. Does anyone think they wouldn't sell like hotcakes? Hello Gaston, this is money calling, please pick up.... ::) ;D
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I pretty much concur with Bafsu on the Sub2000.
I have the .40 caliber that uses the Glock 22 mags and Bafsu said basically the same thing I would say. It is good for what it is, a compact stow-able rifle that will carry in a standard bag or backpack without notice. It makes a great back-up for my G27 and a good truck-gun.
Kel-Tec's website has a good many accessories now, including an AR-style fore-end and rails, etc.
Even with the so-so factory peep sights, accuracy is above average...at least with mine....using 185gr FMJ Federal and Blazer Brass ammo.
DRTV Review page:
http://www.downrange.tv/reviews/showproduct.php/product/51/cat/8
http://www.keltecweapons.com/store/sub-2000-accessories/
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If you're looking for a real 9mm carbine Lone Wolf is making a complete 9mm AR carbine or they sell just the lower. It's designed just like the 9mm AR's that Colt and others make but instead of using the Colt/Sten style mag it uses a 9mm Glock mag. It also doesn't need a mag block which is the weak point of a lot of the 9mm AR style carbines. The mag well is cast to hold the 9mm Glock mag and it will work with any 9mm Glock mag 15rds (G19) or longer. It uses a standard 9mm AR upper. If you buy the lower from Lone Wolf (backordered pretty deep I've heard) and add your own upper you can build one for a decent price. Still a lot more than a Sub 2K but if you want a more purpose built true carbine it's probably a better choice. If you want a truck gun / plinker / toy then the Kel-Tec is great.
I've had zero issues with my Sub2K but I wonder in the back of my mind just how durable it is if I really ran it hard like I do an AR. Maybe soon I'll have the time to run it through a carbine course just to see how it handles running 500rds in a half day.
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Wouldn't that get into SBR territory?
FQ13 who will again wonder why Glock doesn't just make a damn carbine with interchangeable mags. Does anyone think they wouldn't sell like hotcakes? Hello Gaston, this is money calling, please pick up.... ::) ;D
No it's not an SBR, the replacement upper has a 16 inch barrel.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php
They make them for 1911's as well
http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.php
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Look into the Mec-Tech (I believe it is). They have a Carbine upper that uses your pistol lower and mags. I haven't fired one but it is interesting especially if you have, say, 2 Glocks. You can use one as is and use the other lower on the Carbine or you can pick up a Lone Wolf Dist. frame and have it dedicated to the Carbine. KOOL with 33 round mags.
FWIW
Richard
I got a good price on the Mech-Tech a couple of years ago from a third party distributor. It came with the standard skeletal metal frame stock with a butt pad and I ordered the M4 type collapsible stock.
I had trouble removing the old stock because it takes a VERY thin wall 3/8 box or nut driver. I shelved that project due to other priorities and have just recently started up on it again. I used a Dremel to cut the old stock frame away and was able to remove it with the tools I had. However, the same type box wrench was needed to install the M4 type stock.
I contacted Mech-Tech and spoke to Frank Jones, General Manager, who called me in response to my email.
They have an adapter that you can use with a threaded M4 stock. They are exchanging the one I purchased 2 years ago for this new one. They just received my return yesterday, so we will see how soon they get the replacement to me.
Mr. Jones said that they use a Skill 3/8 box for this removal and install and it works. Most modern tools are cheaply made and cannot be that thin with the poor material they use.
He offered the exchange because he didn't like me to have to purchase a Skill tool just for this.
I purchased a Glock 21SF and used my plain Glock 21 frame for the Mech-Tech.
Not sure how their product will perform, but I'm pleased with the customer service so far.
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Thanks for the input. Y'all are pretty much confirming what I've read elsewhere.
They advertise as having a G19 version available; how available, I don't know. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/ (http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/)
The 9mm ARs are appealing, but I think I would go ahead and get one chambered for a rifle round if I was going to spend the money on an ar. The price of the keltec is one of the big plusses.
I don't think I want to take one of my pistols out of commission to get the Mech-tech. If I could afford another 10mm and wanted a carbine to match, that would probably be my best option. But I'm only looking for 9mm at the moment.
The size, compatibility, price are what make the Kel-tec my top prospect at the moment. It doesn't hurt that it keeps getting pretty good reviews.
If you want a truck gun / plinker / toy then the Kel-Tec is great.
That's what I'm primarily looking for. Mainly a range gun, but reliable enough to depend on in an emergency.
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Actually, I called them on the phone (just because I was curious) and talked to a guy named Sean. He seemed pleased with the carbine. They do make a G-19 compliant version and he swore up and down it was good out to close to 100 yards. Lets factor in the Koolaid and the fact that these guys probably get to shoot the things for free and so are probably real good with them. We'll call it 75 yards for us mere mortals. Still not too shabby for a $400 easily concealed gun.
FQ13
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I want one as a truck/saddlebag (MC) gun. Push the right rounds out of a 16 inch barrel and they are quite effective. I like the idea because I can use is as a legal deer gun, while 9 or 40 out of a pistol are not allowed.
That would be a good gelatin test for MB--run pistol vs. carbine for the same ammo. 9, 357, 44, 45 etc. Whitebox/ball and top tier. I think you could/should really SHOW what a difference ammo makes.
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I never shot 9mm out of a carbine barrel but the .45 kicks butt. The 16" barrel probably adds 1/3 to the ME in both calibers. Mech-Tech used to say on their website what kind of velocity to expect. The penetration of the 9mm should be quite deep.
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I never shot 9mm out of a carbine barrel but the .45 kicks butt.
Yeah, it made the 30's roar.
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Actually, I called them on the phone (just because I was curious) and talked to a guy named Sean. He seemed pleased with the carbine. They do make a G-19 compliant version and he swore up and down it was good out to close to 100 yards. Lets factor in the Koolaid and the fact that these guys probably get to shoot the things for free and so are probably real good with them. We'll call it 75 yards for us mere mortals. Still not too shabby for a $400 easily concealed gun.
FQ13
Mine in .40 S&W caliber will (from a sandbagged rest on a bench) put its shots into an IPSC center-mass area, if aiming at the goozle pipe area, at 85yds. The drop changes depending on the ammo velocity. COR-BON +P ammo sings pretty good and might be good to 100, but I don't see me needing to shoot at people that far away with this gun.
I know several local area police officers that are issued Glock 22 handguns and carry the SUB-2000's in their duty gear bags as back-up, since both use the same mags.
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Mine in .40 S&W caliber will (from a sandbagged rest on a bench) put its shots into an IPSC center-mass area, if aiming at the goozle pipe area, at 85yds. The drop changes depending on the ammo velocity. COR-BON +P ammo sings pretty good and might be good to 100, but I don't see me needing to shoot at people that far away with this gun.
I know several local area police officers that are issued Glock 22 handguns and carry the SUB-2000's in their duty gear bags as back-up, since both use the same mags.
That's one reason I got mine. Some of our contract facilities don't want us carrying our AR's or shotguns in the vehicles on property but since we've got issued 9mm Glocks they have no issue with the Sub2K's. Since most of our potential shootings would be with either vehicles or cargo containers I think the 16" barrel and 33rd mags are a serious advantage over a pistol. I've got most of my mags loaded with our duty Gold Dot 124gr+P+ HP's but I keep a couple loaded with some really hot Israeli FMJ 115gr I picked up years ago when I was working in Serbia. The difference on the chrono between the 4" barrel and the 16" barrel is about 325fps. I wouldn't go so far as to call it armor piercing or barricade ammo but I feel a lot better if I need to punch through a corner of a cargo container with it.
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Yeah, it made the 30's roar.
And that was only a 10.5" barrel. 16" adds even more zing. :)
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Yeah, it made the 20's roar.
FIFY
I've been fighting the urge, but, for the sake of accuracy, I had to.
I have no .45's in my stable; so, I'll have to stick with letting the 9 mm's scream for now.
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UPDATE to my Mechtech stock exchange.
I received my replacement stock yesterday. They received my old on on 11/9 and I received my replacement on 11/16. a 5 working day turn around for them. I am very happy with their customer service.
I'll see if I can get to the range and put together a range report.
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Where can you FIND one of these puppies?
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Where can you FIND one of these puppies?
My FFL has one on consignment right now. $400.00 cash or check...
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My FFL has one on consignment right now. $400.00 cash or check...
Should be legal in NJ too, as long as you load it with ten rounders.
FQ13
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UPDATE to my Mechtech stock exchange.
I received my replacement stock yesterday. They received my old on on 11/9 and I received my replacement on 11/16. a 5 working day turn around for them. I am very happy with their customer service.
I'll see if I can get to the range and put together a range report.
Please let us know how it works out. It's not on my purchase list anytime soon because it requires making my pistol "not a pistol." However, I may be interested in one in the distant future for 10mm.
Where can you FIND one of these puppies?
I hope to buy one soon but not immediately. This is now my biggest question. I haven't found a Glock one, especially one for a 19. It may end up being one of those "ready or not" purchases whenever I do find one.
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Where can you FIND one of these puppies?
Did you mean the Mechtech or the Kel-tec?
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If you're asking where to find a sub2k they're all over gunbroker. I bought mine (G17 version) NIB for $329, $20 shipping and $15 transfer: $364 out the door.
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Definitely the Kel Tech- even though I am Glock-less, the magazines are all over the place, so I might go that way. AND in NJ we can go up to 15 rounds...which Glock mag would that be?
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Definitely the Kel Tech- even though I am Glock-less, the magazines are all over the place, so I might go that way. AND in NJ we can go up to 15 rounds...which Glock mag would that be?
9mm or .40?
If 9mm, you'd pretty much have to get one set up for a G19 to make use of standard capacity 15 round mags. Standard G17 mags are 17 rounds. If you got one designed for those mags, you would be stuck having to use the reduced capacity 10 round mags for a G17. As usual, one set up for a G19 will take all mags larger, but that doesn't do you any good.
If .40, G22 mags are 15 rounders.
As a side note in case you missed it, they make versions set up to take magazines from other manufacturers too (S&W, Sig., Beretta, etc. ?). If you look through the list of options, you may find something better suited.
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Definitely the Kel Tech- even though I am Glock-less, the magazines are all over the place, so I might go that way. AND in NJ we can go up to 15 rounds...which Glock mag would that be?
Hell, if you go G-19 I'll trade you a Clinton ten rounder for a CD or two.
FQ13
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I don't think jaybet was looking to get a Glock pistol....just some magazines to use in the Kel-Tec.
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I don't think jaybet was looking to get a Glock pistol....just some magazines to use in the Kel-Tec.
I know. I was offering the mag if he gets the G-19 model.
FQ13
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We'll see what I can get. AND where the money's coming from.
Thanks