The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: mkm on November 13, 2011, 04:06:36 AM
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I purchased a Glock 20 a few months back to use as a woods gun. Unfortunately, I haven't got to use it as much as I would have liked thanks to being stuck in front of a computer all the time. It did get me to thinking about what ammo would best suit my needs for carrying in the woods. Therefore, I thought I would bring it up for discussion here.
First off, let me say what I'm not looking for. I'm not looking for discussion of "best" caliber (.357, 10mm, .44, .454, .460, .500, whatever) or "best" gun (make, revolver, auto, etc.) as those are pretty much personal preference and won't ever be the same for everybody. I've been around here long enough that I realize we'll probably venture that direction at some point anyway, but I wanted to make it known that it's not direction I want to go. ;)
What I'm looking for is ammo characteristics that are independent of caliber. For example: In an urban setting, we typically want a bullet that reliably expands, penetrates deep enough, but doesn't overpenetrate. We're also typically focused on stopping 2 legged vermin.
What characteristics do you consider most important for woods carry: penetration, as we're less concerned about collateral damage and 2 holes bleed more than one; expansion, as bigger is better; or something in the middle similar to urban? Probably a bit oversimplified, but I'm just trying to get things kick started. With this in mind, what type of bullet choice (FMJ, HP, something in the middle), weight (light, middle, heavy relative to respective caliber) and speed do you go with?
I realize that this will vary some depending on what part of the country you are in and what type of threats you are likely to encounter. Therefore, we may need to have different selections for different regions and threats we expect to encounter.
I'm in the southeast. My main threats are likely to be feral dogs, feral hogs, and feral humans (the order changes slightly according to location) with the occasional coyote or black bear. Others may have to consider grizzlies, mountain lions, or aliens (not from space).
I know a lot of you make custom loads, and, although I'm not equipped to reload at this time, I still wouldn't mind hearing your choices and reasoning behind them. I also wouldn't mind factory ammo reccomendations. My main thing though is general characteristics and the reasoning behind your choices. That way we can sort through everyone elses' opinions to refine our own opinion and make a more educated selection.
Wow, that was long winded. I also just asked a "your opinion" question; so, this is likely to get crazy. That's what makes it fun though. When the drift ensues ::), please make sure she's pretty and/or the toy is cool. ;D Thanks, and have at it.
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I think you've made a good choice, the 10mm seems to be the first "multi purpose" load for the modern semi auto pistol.
Previously some one considering hand gun hunting had only revolvers to choose from, while semi autos were only chambered in "combat" or anti people rounds .
To answer your question, I would suggest an FMJ round since while you may encounter predatory people your biggest threat will be from animals.
As you said, this is not a CCW gun, it is a Woods gun, so find out what the hand gun hunters in your area prefer and go from there.
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If you are looking to hunt it is just like any other hunting ammunition: Research the bullet choices for the size and strength of the animal and its hide thickness and toughness. Match the bullet to maximize penetration and damage based on those factors.
If you are looking for a protection or defensive round it is much simpler: You have the power in the handgun already, and now you need a tough full metal jacket that will hold its shape and mass as it rattles through brush, feeds reliably every time and puts holes in the target. While a hunting round needs to do its job in one hit, a defensive round can sacrifice efficiencies of rounds for the ability to get the numbers on target.
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If you are looking to hunt it is just like any other hunting ammunition: Research the bullet choices for the size and strength of the animal and its hide thickness and toughness. Match the bullet to maximize penetration and damage based on those factors.
If you are looking for a protection or defensive round it is much simpler: You have the power in the handgun already, and now you need a tough full metal jacket that will hold its shape and mass as it rattles through brush, feeds reliably every time and puts holes in the target. While a hunting round needs to do its job in one hit, a defensive round can sacrifice efficiencies of rounds for the ability to get the numbers on target.
My reasoning on going with the hunting round was that what will stop a person may not work very well on a mountain lion or hog.
But if your ammo is appropriate for lions and hogs it will darn sure stop a person.
The OP listed far more varieties of animal threats than human so I would load for that .
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For me I'd probably have multiple mags to handle variance. For a revolver maybe a speedloader.
Really, for anything like deer and below I'd go with Critical Defense, Corbon DPX, something with Remington's Golden Sabre or to save $$$$'s Winchester Silvertips. The Silvertips will do the job and in my mind have more penetration.
My first concern will be the hogs. Hogs were always a concern when I was a child hunting...my dad spent the night in a tree once so I was taught concern for wild hogs because they will eat you. So...I'd have a mag for hogs and one for hunting. The hog mag will have a blunt lead nose and not be hollow because they are so tough and have heavy bones...I want penetration. I may have the last few in the mag FMJ. 400 lbs or so of big hog the FMJ may make the difference.
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I also live in the deep southeastern US and feral dogs and hogs is the primary "threat," followed by snakes. When in the woods (I don't walk in the woods, but we do have pathways cut for our ATV and golf cart) I have taken to carrying a combo of CCI snake-shot and Hornady LeverEvolution rounds. The LeverEvolution uses the FTX bullet which is a hollow point with a flexible rubber/plastic tip. Prior to that, I always carried two rounds of snake-shot, staged first, followed by four rounds of a semi-jacketed soft-point.
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I like snake shot in the chamber followed by bonded hollow points in the mag.
The mags in reserve could have FMJs or more Gold Dots, depending on whether I feel like getting in some cheap plinking or not. I get great accuracy from Win PDX but haven't done enough penetration testing with them yet.
We don't have to deal with hogs here yet.
Feral dogs, mountain lion, snakes, illegals and meth cookers/weed grows are the things I'm most concerned with.
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Double Tap touts these as perfect woods/trail ammo (ain't cheap), but neither is your life....
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=105
10mm 200gr WFNGC Hardcast 50rds. $46.79
This is the load that you have been hearing about! This hardcast Wide Flat Nose gas - checked bullet will not deform on impact, and will create a large deep wound channel. Excellent for hunting or woods protection!
Caliber : 10mm
Bullet : 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1105fps / 542 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1240fps
Box of 50rds.
Hardcast makes "large, uniform holes,"....like deep ones....I would think a four-legged let alone a two legged animal would know the difference, as they would be going down.
Large dangerous game loads: Cape Buffalo, Lion, Tigers, and Bears, etc,....are usually Solids....You want big deep holes if you need them.
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Buffalo Bore makes a 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN @ 1200 fps/ 703 ft. lbs. ME that they're claiming over 3 feet of penetration with.
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as twyacht commented... largest meplat (flat nose) with a sharp cutting shoulder of an alloy that will not shatter when shot on steel plate.... gas checked to prevent base erosion... probably in the 180- 200grain range, with a good charge of VihtaVuory powder ...primer that will not flow into firing pin hole and be cut off... that reliable feeds in your Glock...
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+1 on twyahts recommendation. Double Tap came to be because the 10mm wasn't being loaded to its potential. Take a look around their website I'm sure you'll find a few things you didn't know you couldn't live without ;D
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I have to disagree with tom in that a FMJ or hardcast lead bullet might be best for hogs and etc. it is most likely going to punch straight thru a BG and not do too much damage unless it hits bone and sends out secondary frags. Any good SD round will most certainly be better for BG's but not for hogs and etc. In that case I would go the multi mag route probably loaded with 2 or 3 shot loads and then hog loads. If I needed BG loads I would send a couple shot loads at him/them and do a quick tach reload to my BG mag.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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The solids might be best for a bear, but unless you're hunting and taking 50+ yard shots, I doubt its necessary on hogs (and I've killed a passel). Frankly I think Peg got it right. The old school unsung JSP is probably your best choice. It penetrates more than a JHP, but still leaves a big hole. I used it hog hunting in a .44 mag carbine, and neither the hogs nor I had any complaints. It should also expand quickly enough on more soft skinned targets like dogs, deer, zombies etc.. Just a thought.
FQ13
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Thanks for the help guys. Y'all are pretty much confirming what I was thinking. But I appreciate good discussion and thought out opinions I like the multiple mags idea. I would likely have at least one spare mag anyway; so it might be best to carry multiple ammo types: penetrating and expanding. I can load up whichever I think is best for the most likely threat and carry the less likely as spare.
The hardcast stuff would probably be pretty good for penetrating, but I'm hesistant to run lead through my stock Glock barrel. :-\
For those of you who have guns that will take them and consider snakes a problem, the shotshells are a good idea. Call me weird, but I don't consider snakes a "must shoot" threat. I'm going to be hard pressed to kill one or let someone I'm with kill one unless it is venomous and hanging out in my front yard or the equivalent. If I'm out in his home turf, he gets the right of way and the right to live. I recommend reassessing your need to shoot them, but I won't judge. ;)
I've looked at the doubletap stuff in various flavors and will probably order some to try before long. I really want to get some ammo that brings out the full potential of my 10mm. I didn't single it out as the main focus here because I felt this topic would be best served on a broader caliber level. I think you've done well on that so far, and I look forward to any further discussion.
Thanks again.
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Call me weird, but I don't consider snakes a "must shoot" threat.
I won't call you weird but 'must shoot' depends on how nice a skin it has. Big enough to compliment my 6', 10" wide one? It's going down. ;D
I do let the little ones live....
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Call me "herpaphobic".
If it slithers it dies. ;D
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Call me "herpaphobic".
If it slithers it dies. ;D
Yep.
Unless it is a King Snake....I'll let them pass.....if they don't scare the crap out of me by suddenly "showing up".
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XTP bullets used to be known for deeper penetration because of bullet design and that is what you want in your AO. You want a round that will expand but still get deep enough after penetrating the thick hide of a hog. Here in bear country I carry my .40 with FMJ's when I am out in the woods because even 14 to 18 inch penetration is too shallow on a bear. I would prefer a round that ran 24 to 30 inches and still expanded somewhat but I haven't found one.
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I've had pretty good luck killing hogs with Cor-Bon Power Ball. I think it's the best mix of an open and closed tipped round. It is still a good self defense round as well so you're not constantly loading and unloading your pistol. I wouldn't be afraid mixing loads in a Glock but in most other pistols this is asking for a malfunction unless they're similar pressure loads with the bullet being the only difference.
I've killed hogs with the powerball's from my 6" barrel 10mm in my G21 as well as from my 5" barrel Delta Elite. I've also killed hogs with them in .357 (from a 3" barrel) .45 ACP from both 1911's and a S&W Governor as well as in 9mm from a G19 (350# plus) that I double tapped strictly out of my own fear due to his size and proximity to me but I think he would've gone down with the first shot.
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Shooting a feral hog with a 9MM I would not use the "double tap" method, (two shots and evaluate).
I would use the "triple click" method, (keep pulling the damn trigger till it's gone click at least 3 times ) ;D
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Glad to know my 9 mm will do the job if it has to.
Shooting a feral hog with a 9MM I would not use the "double tap" method, (two shots and evaluate).
I would use the "triple click" method, (keep pulling the damn trigger till it's gone click at least 3 times ) ;D
Spoken like a non-Glock person. Glocks only click once when empty. :P ;D
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Shooting a feral hog with a 9MM I would not use the "double tap" method, (two shots and evaluate).
I would use the "triple click" method, (keep pulling the damn trigger till it's gone click at least 3 times ) ;D
Amen brother Tom, amen!
FQ13 who might have slightly bent, or even maybe broken Texas law on carrying a gun during bow seaso,n and is REALLY glad he did. All those holes officer? Its kind of like the Kennedy assassination. This here is the "magic arrow". ;D
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Shooting a feral hog with a 9MM I would not use the "double tap" method, (two shots and evaluate).
I would use the "triple click" method, (keep pulling the damn trigger till it's gone click at least 3 times ) ;D
You don't know how we do it down in the South. For as many hogs as I shoot I kill just as many by severing the spine with RAT-6 or other knife. Just let the dogs lock on him and jump on his back. It's a much bigger rush than shooting one.
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You're young.
You'll get old (maybe ) and have the aches to regret stuff like that.
;D
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You're young.
You'll get old (maybe ) and have the aches to regret stuff like that.
;D
+ 10,000, As I sit here with my back out. :-\
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You can club one to death with a rock as well, Basfu. Me, I like to think we have evolution for a reason. I'll take a gun (or a bow if I have to) when dealing with things that can hurt me, thanks all the same. ;D
FQ13
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Bafsu and Haz Jr should get together. ;D
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Bafsu and Haz Jr should get together. ;D
Not in my state buddy! I like it the way it is. If you want to introduce them, do it in New Hampshire. ;D
FQ13
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You don't know how we do it down in the South. For as many hogs as I shoot I kill just as many by severing the spine with RAT-6 or other knife. Just let the dogs lock on him and jump on his back. It's a much bigger rush than shooting one.
I probably hear more about this type of hunting than shooting them. I have yet to do either, but I lean towards shooting. With that said, I won't say I won't ever hog hunt with a knife. It does seem like a much greater adrenaline rush.
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You're young.
You'll get old (maybe ) and have the aches to regret stuff like that.
;D
I've already got the aches to regret it, but not from the hogs. I'm a pretty old and beat up 40, almost 41 and figure I've only got a couple more years of that kind of stuff in me. I just hope i can hold out a couple more years until my son is old enough to learn the right way. I really have never had an issue, I learned to do it when I was around 12 and never had a hog related injury other than some brush scrapes. I've also done a bit of gator trapping too so the hogs seem pretty mild most of the time.
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Shooting a feral hog with a 9MM I would not use the "double tap" method, (two shots and evaluate).
I would use the "triple click" method, (keep pulling the damn trigger till it's gone click at least 3 times ) reload, and repeat ;D
fixed
unless a snake is a danger I see no reason to kill it.