The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: twyacht on November 13, 2011, 05:48:52 PM
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We have (hopefully), all heard of the 21 Foot Rule. Where a BG with an edged weapon can cover 21 feet faster than the average person can draw from a concealed holster/pocket, and defend themselves.
I know Situational Awareness is a key factor, but any tips and advice would be of assistance. Outside of my windows or doors being broken at 3:48 a.m. , this is my next greatest "fear" when on the street.
Some info and articles I found.
http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/
and this is an amateur....
This is a homicidal individual against Cops. Even after he is hit several times.
Yes I worry, about the 21 foot rule...I'm sure Janich can attest to it. I'm interested in his take on a defense for it.
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An old instructional video by Caliber press called " Surviving edged weapons " is a good one to look up. We used it in police acadamy.
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I've taken to carrying a walking stick (Cold Steel Blackthorn Walking Stick) for pretty much that reason.
It is always in my off hand when I am moving and I'm likely to be able to present it faster than a carry weapon.
It might not do any damage, but it is also likely to slow down or distract an attacker, maybe enough to draw and fire.
I worry more about the attacks from within the 21ft. It might be the only weapon you have time to deploy.
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In a Tactical Response training class, we replicated the 21 foot scenario. But instead of both the attacker and "victim" acting/reacting to a buzzer to start the incident, the response was predicated on the actions of the attacker making the first move. That throws in an additional reaction time for the victim. Out of our class of 8 students, only one was able to draw and fire before the attacker got to him. It was very surprising to realize that 21 feet is the minimum required to respond vs. the maximum distance that an attacker can be considered a threat. Very interesting exercise.
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I was in a NRA Personal Defense class years ago and like Skeiter above we did the 21 foot experiment. I was the "good guy" with a squirt gun in my waist band, appendix carry because that's how I carry all my squirt guns ;D, and we had a "bad guy" with a rubber knife attack from 7 paces. No cue was given he was instructed to wait for someone to distract me with conversation. It worked pretty good and he would have had me EXCEPT I STEPPED OFF LINE! A moving target is harder to hit especially if your running at it. I simply took a side step perpendicular to his path out of reaction/instint/training and put a stream of water in his chesticles.
I was watching some Ruger VideoPodcasts this evening and the instructor replicated this with a carbine. Once a threat was identified he stepped to one side and then engaged. Its like sparring/fighting you need to create space without presenting a weak point and hopefully set them up for counterattack in the process.
HTH
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I'm thinking awareness is going to be the key to defending against the 21ft rule, and, admittedly, it won't be 100%.
Pay attention to your surroundings and the other people in it. If you spot a potential threat (ie, very sketchy looking with hands in pockets) or a likely threat (ie, weapon in hand and obviously disgruntled), you will have to determine how to mitigate each threat independently. Is the threat stationary, moving toward you, or moving away from you? If moving, is it slow or fast? Is the threat obviously focused on someone else or you? What is the setting?
In my opinion, the best option is to reroute to avoid the threat. If detouring around isn't an option, turn around but watch you back.
If avoidance isn't an option but the threat isn't immediate, try to put some cover/structure and as much distance as possible between you and it.
If it is an obvious (weapon in hand) threat and focused on me, I would likely draw my firearm but not necessarily aim it. I would still have to bring it up to ready and aim, but I remove drawing complications out of the process.
The other end of the 21 foot spectrum and perhaps that of greatest concern, is the surprise attack. This is where I agree with Magoo and say move perpendicular to the threat. Get out of its way and draw on the move.
The cane and similar options are good for those that can't quickly move to the side or that just want to use one as an additional defense.
Either way, the need to practice and pay attention is very important in my opinion.
This is all just my opinion, and I hope to hear from those like Janich and Bane.
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A large portion of Gabe Suarez's training seems to be focused on this sort of close range SD as well.
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movement has to be a key factor when reacting. Create space first if possible then engage. A good drill is to run from a target while point shooting. Lots of variables involved, of course it helps if you can run faster than your attacker. ;D
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movement has to be a key factor when reacting. Create space first if possible then engage. A good drill is to run from a target while point shooting. Lots of variables involved, of course it helps if you can run faster than your attacker. ;D
Or your buddy.... Wait that's for bears, cougars and wolves.... but it still applies ;D
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Or your buddy Mother in law .... Wait that's for bears, cougars and wolves.... but it still applies ;D
I'll protect my buddy....
;)
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I'll protect my buddy....
;)
Who? Oh, you mean my dear friend who died in the bear attack? A fine man, just a bit of a stick in the mud, no sense of humor. He stumbled when I hit him in the knee with the rod case. I thought it was in good fun, but the language he used! Really, he never could take a joke. Poor devil. ;D
FQ13
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Who? Oh, you mean my dear friend who died in the bear attack? A fine man, just a bit of a stick in the mud, no sense of humor. He stumbled when I hit him in the knee with the rod case. I thought it was in good fun, but the language he used! Really, he never could take a joke. Poor devil. ;D
FQ13
If I'm in bear country with a buddy FQ, he's someone whom I would trust with my life. Like the Marines, leave no one behind, excluding the MIL! ;D
In all fairness, my MIL was stricken with Alzheimers in her mid 50's so she really was a sweet women for the short time I got to know her.
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Who? Oh, you mean my dear friend who died in the bear attack? A fine man, just a bit of a stick in the mud, no sense of humor. He stumbled when I hit him in the knee with the rod case. I thought it was in good fun, but the language he used! Really, he never could take a joke. Poor devil. ;D
FQ13
That kind of thinking is what makes the 22 short the most popular and effective defense against Grizzly Bears ;D
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Outside of condition one,....we can look at this quick re-enactment and think no problem, but it is plausible threat, and you better have your "A" game. Especially if your with your wife/girlfriend/kids, even your Mother-In-Law.
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What about the same guy walking on the path carrying a small cooler in one hand and a blanket over the hand holding the knife.
Chances are he will get within 5 feet before he drops the blanket and tosses the cooler.
Some how I think if I saw a guy peeking out from behind a tree with his hand behind his back that should he then charge, he''d be dead in 3 steps
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What about the same guy walking on the path carrying a small cooler in one hand and a blanket over the hand holding the knife.
Chances are he will get within 5 feet before he drops the blanket and tosses the cooler.
Some how I think if I saw a guy peeking out from behind a tree with his hand behind his back that should he then charge, he''d be dead in 3 steps
Who said "the best place to have a gun is in your hand"? That would apply in either of the previous situations.
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Who said "the best place to have a gun is in your hand"? That would apply in either of the previous situations.
Pretty sure it was Clint Smith.
This is why pocket carry is so popular, you can walk along with your pistol already in your hand and no one has a clue.
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In an LFI 1 class we did the Tueller Drill. The average time for the 23 person class was 1.74 seconds.
A vid from Suarez FOF DVD
http://youtu.be/tcPYGfMAujo
Good 3 yd drill at 4:07 on the vid.
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The scenarios mentioned are why it is important to have some sort of unarmed defensive plan.
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here is me shooting:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3785476553118821462&ei=WOEASaiiKI6I_QGG-bm1BA&q=posercam
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FWIW, I think the "rule" is way over-played.
It is IMPORTANT to note that a guy with a contact weapon can close significant distance quickly... You shouldn't feel safe just because the guy can't reach you RIGHT AT THIS INSTANCE. Learn that, and move on.... 21', 22.5', 18'.... who cares? Understanding the principle is much more important than any specific test/demonstration/detail.
Once you understand the principle, you can develop techniques to help you deal with it:
- Move Offline while presenting your firearm.
- Move perpendicular to the line of attack, not backwards.
- Act as Early as possible to prepare to defend yourself, regardless of distance and immediate lethality.
Honestly, very few people get attacked with contact weapons from further than 1 or 2 arms reach anyway... learning to fight inside of 5' is much more important than gaming what you will do against a guy confronting with you with a knife from across the parking lot.
-RJP
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or you could just run away....
drop your pants and moon the guy....
or put your arms out in front of you all zombie like and go "BRAINNNNSSS!!!"
ya, know, anything to get inside his OODA loop.
;D
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FWIW, I think the "rule" is way over-played.
It is IMPORTANT to note that a guy with a contact weapon can close significant distance quickly... You shouldn't feel safe just because the guy can't reach you RIGHT AT THIS INSTANCE. Learn that, and move on.... 21', 22.5', 18'.... who cares? Understanding the principle is much more important than any specific test/demonstration/detail.
Once you understand the principle, you can develop techniques to help you deal with it:
- Move Offline while presenting your firearm.
- Move perpendicular to the line of attack, not backwards.
- Act as Early as possible to prepare to defend yourself, regardless of distance and immediate lethality.
Honestly, very few people get attacked with contact weapons from further than 1 or 2 arms reach anyway... learning to fight inside of 5' is much more important than gaming what you will do against a guy confronting with you with a knife from across the parking lot.
-RJP
Look at news stories, or NRA"s "Armed Citizen" column.
In many cases the attacker is well with in 21 feet before the threat is apparent, other side of the door, steps out of an alley or doorway, already in the room with the victim.
What Rob posted is just as true with guns as it is with other weapons, the likely hood is that any attacker will be close enough to take possession of whatever he is demanding from his victim.
In other words, you can expect that a robber will be with in arms length, while a rapist will have to close to with in 6 inches or so.
This thinking and the criminals preference for the "surprise attack" under score the importanc of Rob's points.
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Rob is only right...and Tom too....
When I think of having 21 ft of warning, I am reminded of a scene from an old Western movie where a guy is at one end of the street in the classic gun fighter stance..arms at his sides a bit away from his hips, shoulders hunched a little and slowly swaggering towards his opponent at the other end of the street.
Meanwhile, at the other end of the street, his opponent is standing next to his horse when the guy at the other end makes it obvious they are in a gun fight. The guy at the horse, pulls his rifle from his saddle scabbard, lays it across the saddle and pops the guy at the far end.
I know I don't literally have that much time, but compared with the arms length surprise, I'd be thankful for it.
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This is the reasoning that lead to my heated disagreement with Majer about "less lethal" defenses.
Consider, there have been cases where people have even more or less ignored a 12 gauge slug in the chest until they had bled out.
With that evidence that even a fire arm is not guaranteed to immediately stop an attacker, it is impractical, and dangerous , to waste limited reaction time and space on n even less effective method of defense.
When plan A fails you are likely to not have time or space to go to plan B.
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Plan A should be the only option! Plan B is looking for something to clean up the mess.....or "lawyer please"...
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a rapist will have to close to with in 6 inches or so.
Just........gonna.......leave.........it.........alone...........
No I'm not. Tom, quit giving yourself to much credit. :o
;D
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there was a police academy instructor/chief of police guy who used to shoot matches with us. he said that it was "the rule of threes"
the majority of police officer involved shootings were:
from between 3 to 5 yards away
lasted from between 3 to 5 seconds.
and fired between 3 to 5 rounds
but...but...and here is my caveat, those were police officers, they have different duties to actually go after and apprehend bad guys. us "simple civilians" do not.
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From reading news stories and things like "Armed Citizen" I would say that while you are correct about the difference in duties the "Rule of 3" you mention is still valid for citizens.
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Tyler brings up a "moral" question I have asked myself.
I agree that the Police have different duties towards criminals than do ordinary citizens.
But, do ordinary citizens have the responsibility to do more?
Protect innocents who are being attacked when the citizen has the means, skill and capability to stop the attack.
Do they have a responsibility to stop the escape of a serial killer if they have the chance?
Do these responsibilities go away if it is risky? Or illegal?
I look at these questions as separate from the legal answers to them.
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Tyler brings up a "moral" question I have asked myself.
I agree that the Police have different duties towards criminals than do ordinary citizens.
But, do ordinary citizens have the responsibility to do more?
Protect innocents who are being attacked when the citizen has the means, skill and capability to stop the attack.
Do they have a responsibility to stop the escape of a serial killer if they have the chance?
Do these responsibilities go away if it is risky? Or illegal?
I look at these questions as separate from the legal answers to them.
The way NH laws are written you do not have any stated responsibility to take such actions, but since the law applies to the "defense of self and others" you are covered if you choose to take action.
The law also specifies sexual assault or escape of a violent felon.
Other states may differ.
It basically is a question of conscience. Can you walk away and ignore some one in physical danger ?
On the other hand , if you are going to make an armed intervention into a situation you better be damned sure you understand exactly what is happening instead of just reacting to what appears to be happening.
The scruffy guy scuffling with the woman, is it an abduction ? Or is it a plainclothes cop wrestling with a female suspect ?
Are you going to be a hero for shooting a rapist ? Or are you going to be a chump for shooting a cop ?
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Tame Bill and I ran the Tueller Drill, FOF on 12/29/11. We made a vid of it. This was the first time we tried using mask mounted POV cameras. The attack started at 5 yards and the fight lasted 3 seconds, first movement to last shot. This is in slow motion so the pellets can be seen.
http://youtu.be/FUKRn12J2j8
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Nice video.
Couple of questions. Seemed like the "Gansta" grip was being used. Is that an instinctive stance when attacked? Maybe allowing a clearer view of the attacker?
And, I could not tell if the pistol was holstered at the start or if it was in hand?
Showed something I have believed....if you are looking at the potential threat at that distance and watching for an attack move, the guy will get slaughtered.
If you are not aware until the move is made, you are gonna be cutting it way to close.
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Solus, I think the "Gangsta grip" was an illusion caused by the relative position of the camera.
In the second view the gun looked more vertical.
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The grip was result of the direction I was moving. Earlier we proved to our satisfaction that if you stand your ground you get cut. From looking at the other vids where the defender didn't move the best the defender could do was to trade a shot for a cut. Movement off the line of attack is essential. I carry AIWB so that was where my draw came from.
We are going to start using the cameras more in FOF training. It's hard to correct mistakes if you don't know your making them. Although I won that scenario there are things I could have done better.
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great info, keep it up, never stop training...
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Very good information and on the down side if you assume the guy 21ft from you is the BG and you pull your weapon your in deep do do. Just take the flash mob and knocking out victims and most are kids and that's a whole new ball game :'( :-*
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Very good information and on the down side if you assume the guy 21ft from you is the BG and you pull your weapon your in deep do do. Just take the flash mob and knocking out victims and most are kids and that's a whole new ball game :'( :-*
On the other hand, if you see the guy at 21ft and assume he is the bad guy and discretely put your hand on your weapon without drawing and plan your move off line and watch him like a hawk you will do ok.
Smile at him when you are set to go and he'll likely move on....or draw on you ...