The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: Rastus on November 26, 2011, 10:23:33 AM
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A good question came up the other day that totally blindsided me....shouldn't have, but it did. A friend asked if the EOTech's were hardened for EMP. I have no idea.
If we have an EMP event and the electronic sight systems we have are not hardened against or otherwise protected from EMP then there will be no functioning electronic sight systems after an EMP event.
Does anyone have any real information on EMP vulnerability on specific sight systems, like EOTech or others?
For me, EMP vulnerability would make holographic laser sights less attractive when compared to other options.
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Good question, and they are rather on the pricey side to have stuck in a Faraday cage "just in case".
Although there is info on EMP on the web, there is actually dearth compared to other research and technologies, especially in the hard information area. Data, yeah, lots of that, but real info is not readily available.
Almost like someone is suppressing it . . . . . . . . :o 8)
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I could be very, very wrong here, but I didn't think that battery powered stuff would get hit if it wasn't on. If there is no curent to disrupt what does EMP effect? Please explain in small simple words Rastus or TW or others as I know you heve expertise in electronics here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would benefit.
Thanks
FQ13
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I could be very, very wrong here, but I didn't think that battery powered stuff would get hit if it wasn't on. If there is no curent to disrupt what does EMP effect? Please explain in small simple words Rastus or TW or others as I know you heve expertise in electronics here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would benefit.
Thanks
FQ13
It builds a static charge in the components that overloads them. Their own power source doesn't need to be on for the components themselves to build up a charge. The Faraday cage works by diverting the energy into to surrounding cage work .
2 thoughts, first, would your gunsafe act as a Faraday cage to protect electronic sights ?
2nd, Maybe some one should reintroduce an updated version of the old Weaver Quick Point, reshaped for compactness and replacing the red wire with an optic fiber, or TFO, to improve low light performance.
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Circuit boards today aren't like they were when I took electricity/electronics classes in HS and college. They're made up with microscopic strands of wire that see currents in the micro amps. It's why they can make micro chips the size of a pinhead these days. It doesn't take a great deal of pulse to fry these circuits which is why they're so vulnerable.
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Circuit boards today aren't like they were when I took electricity/electronics classes in HS and college. They're made up with microscopic strands of wire that see currents in the micro amps. It's why they can make micro chips the size of a pinhead these days. It doesn't take a great deal of pulse to fry these circuits which is why they're so vulnerable.
They are so sensitive that the workers assembling them have to be grounded so the static charge they generate through simply moving will not fry the boards.
The pink plastic bags they are stored in are specially made to be "anti static" as well.
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Basic tenet of electricity - you pass a wire through a magnetic (energy) field, you generate electricity. That's how gennies work - you turn the shaft wound with wires in the presence of magnets and voila - current.
Conversely, the wire can be motionless and it can be the energy that is moving (think EMP) - same effect, current.
Then on to what Timothy said re' micro-amp currents, anything larger and the circuit fries.
As for gun safes, doubtful. They aren't typically grounded, and there are gaps around the door. These are fire safes, intended to protect the contents from high heat, not energy waves.
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Just for the sake of this discussion, 1 microamp = 0.000001 amp!
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Basic tenet of electricity - you pass a wire through a magnetic (energy) field, you generate electricity. That's how gennies work - you turn the shaft wound with wires in the presence of magnets and voila - current.
Conversely, the wire can be motionless and it can be the energy that is moving (think EMP) - same effect, current.
Then on to what Timothy said re' micro-amp currents, anything larger and the circuit fries.
As for gun safes, doubtful. They aren't typically grounded, and there are gaps around the door. These are fire safes, intended to protect the contents from high heat, not energy waves.
Hmmm...Am I correct when I think that the wire passing through the magnetic field has to be ferric for the current to be generated?
Would an aluminum wire also be affected?
Are there other conductors that might not be affected?
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wouldn't a a grounded safe work as a Faraday cage?
seems like it meets all the reqs.
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Hmmm...Am I correct when I think that the wire passing through the magnetic field has to be ferric for the current to be generated?
Would an aluminum wire also be affected?
Are there other conductors that might not be affected?
Aluminum is a very good conductor with nearly 60% of the conductivity of copper and still used extensively.
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Hmmm...Am I correct when I think that the wire passing through the magnetic field has to be ferric for the current to be generated?
Would an aluminum wire also be affected?
Are there other conductors that might not be affected?
Any conductive material will be affected - copper, aluminum, iron, silver, anything that conducts electricity at STP (standard temperature and pressure).
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wouldn't a a grounded safe work as a Faraday cage?
seems like it meets all the reqs.
As for gun safes, doubtful. They aren't typically grounded, and there are gaps around the door. These are fire safes, intended to protect the contents from high heat, not energy waves.
Even a well sealed door has paint on it, and the paint is not a conductor. Neither are the fire seals. From what I have read, any gap in the cage will negate the effects of the cage, and will allow the EMP radiation to enter the Faraday cage. Also, if you use the bottom hole to run an electric dehumidifier to the safe, that creates another opening.
You might be able to make a safe - or safe room - into a Faraday cage, but it will not be cheap or easy. Even the metal ammo cans are not considered enough - placing electronics into an ammo can, sealing it, then putting the ammo can in a galvanized garbage can with the lid on snugly is thought to be sufficient, depending on the closeness and power of the EMP.
Again, lots of data, very little information. And maybe intentionally - there was a news story last week about a city in Spain where the police activated some device that completely shut down electronics within 500 meters of the city hall. Power was lost, no radio signals of any kind were transmittable (cell phones, radios, etc.) from before the big shot's visit until about an hour after. Not EMP, electronics were not damaged, but they certainly were dampened. Knowledge and implementation of the effective use of EMP counter-measures would negate this .gov ability.
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they make paint that is electrically conductive. (infact many pegments are very conductive witch is why the non conductive stuff can not be tinted with natural pegments)
my main gun safe was the OG safe from the river city bank built in 1908, It has no fire rating, and actually do to the exposed hinges is not legally a safe as far as CA is concered... it is only 4000# and is made of 3/8" hardend steal plate. ::)
it would not be very hard to make a conductive seal, loosly braded copper wire comes to mind, assuming it has direct contact to both the door/jamb and is compressed. Grounding a safe would be very easy, you would just have to connect the door, to the inner and outer skins to a good ground.
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Most modern electronics, with "motherboards", like cellphones, remote controls, laptops, etc,....use a PLC, or programmable logic controller. Regardless of the input power, 12VDC, 120VAC, 9Volt Duracell, Lithium-Ion, NiCad,...doesn't matter.
Internal transformers, have gotten kinda fancy, they convert the incoming voltage to all kinds of voltage to run said component. 12volt AC, is pretty common for household electronics.
The PLC runs on a 6-20 milliamp controller. to brighten the red-dot, you change the signal to the PLC. Kind of like a fuel tank sender. But they usually run on an ohm resistance, as current and fuel can be bad... ::)
In essence, the electrons are disrupted, through the magnetic pulse creating a forced "charge" through your stuff. Some Starfish Prime testing in the early 60's had 22,000 volts, "pulse" and knock out street lights in Hawaii, over 800 miles away. There was almost no amperage, but they were zapped with an exponential increase in voltage.
Electrical stuff back than was more primitive and rugged, compared to today's "motherboard" micro processors, silicone chips,...etc..
I don't know for sure if an Aimpoint, ACOG, EOTech, or any holographic optic would still work....If you were close enough, I'd say they would be kaput...
Hence, my BUIS.... ;D
If you have a safe, with hopefully a GFCI outlet, you could always place isolation bushings between the bolts, and safe. attach a 6 or 8 awg to a mounting bolt, and run in to your houses ground strap. (or get a 8 ft piece of re-bar, and pound 7 3/4 of it into the ground and clamp the cable to it. It could offer a better path of least resistance back to ground, which all stray voltage wants to do..
Thanks now I have a headache... ;D
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Just had an idea....Someone get a stun gun and zap their $600 EOTech and tell us if it still works....
;D
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Can't we make little tin foil hats or something for our Red Dots?
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I was talking to one of my buddies at work and Farad Cages came up. He worked in construction in the '80s and did some work for an alphabet agency in one of the sky scrpers and there was a farad cage around the entire floor, perimeter, ceiling and floor. We wondered what the purpose could be and figured it was survelience counter measures but could have been EMP protection too.
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I was talking to one of my buddies at work and Farad Cages came up. He worked in construction in the '80s and did some work for an alphabet agency in one of the sky scrpers and there was a farad cage around the entire floor, perimeter, ceiling and floor. We wondered what the purpose could be and figured it was survelience counter measures but could have been EMP protection too.
It was surveillance countermeasures, they also hook up a gadget to make the windows vibrate so that a laser pointed at the glass can not pick up what is being said. They do the same thing to parts of embassies and other Govt buildings.
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Just go with a Trijicon and you won't have to worry about this scenario or batteries either.
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It was surveillance countermeasures, they also hook up a gadget to make the windows vibrate so that a laser pointed at the glass can not pick up what is being said. They do the same thing to parts of embassies and other Govt buildings.
They also do things like pump music/white noise in voids in walls.
There are guys that do nothing but try to come up with ways to hear conversations( and ways to beat it)
Sounds like a fun job actually.
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They also do things like pump music/white noise in voids in walls.
There are guys that do nothing but try to come up with ways to hear conversations( and ways to beat it)
Sounds like a fun job actually.
Yes it does ;D
The Soviets went as far as having their Communications section completely isolated from the out side, it is basically a spring mounted room inside a room.
Which is why both sides target the code CLERKS, like Gosenko and Ames. ::)
The human link in the chain is always the weakest.
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Actually, the amateurs target those guys. The pros? They target the janitors and secretaries and maids. They see everything, hear everything, and no one thinks they matter. Until that six figure check with a green card shows up. ;)
FQ13
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Actually, the amateurs target those guys. The pros? They target the janitors and secretaries and maids. They see everything, hear everything, and no one thinks they matter. Until that six figure check with a green card shows up. ;)
FQ13
;D
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Yes it does ;D
The Soviets went as far as having their Communications section completely isolated from the out side, it is basically a spring mounted room inside a room.
Sounds like a place I know of in Colorado ;)
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Sounds like a place I know of in Colorado ;)
Just lot smaller.Actually, the amateurs target those guys. The pros? They target the janitors and secretaries and maids. They see everything, hear everything, and no one thinks they matter. Until that six figure check with a green card shows up. ;)
FQ13
That doesn't work against Russia since they don't hire foreign nationals.
Those chores are handled by spouses or Russians imported for the job who are never allowed to leave the compound.