The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: cdcasey on November 27, 2011, 09:05:55 PM
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Hey all,
i am fairly new to the ar field and had a question. i got a sig 516 back in march and the gun runs great. my only concern is that the bolt release will fail if there is a impact to the butt stock sending the bolt into battery. sometimes it is just setting it down in the safe that will release the bolt unless i really put it in very gingerly. is this something with all ar's or do i have something to be concerned with? i was thinking about putting a heavier buffer from spikes tactical to see if that might help (they are very close to where i live). i do not keep a mag in the gun (right next to it on the shelf jic) but i dont want to experience a major problem at the wrong time. i was going to email sig but they want you to call during business hours and as a banker that can be hard to do. any help/advise is greatly appreciated.
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That's just something that happens with ARs. It will also release the bolt if you drop a cleaning rod into the bore.
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It's something to be aware of when you handle the weapon, but it is a pretty universal habit they have.
I have never yet handled any version of AR that I could not close the bolt by banging the stock on my toe, or giving the butt a good slap.
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It isn't peculiar to ARs BTW. A lot of bolt hold opens on a lot of guns will do it. It's a convenience to aid in reloading an empty gun, not a safety device. And as with all safety devices, don't put 100% of your trust into it.
While it might not be in the official manual of arms, during inspection of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines or M14s(M1a1s) you'd slap the butt to release the bolt.
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Any shock great enough and of the right vector to move the bolt to the rear will release it..just like pulling it to the rear and releasing it by hand.
This does apply to any bolt hold open system that can be released by pulling the bolt to the rear, not just ARs.
And I've had them close by hitting the bolt with a cleaning rod also.
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Leave the bolt forward until it needs to be pulled back for some reason?
Sounds like a fix to me.
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It isn't peculiar to ARs BTW. A lot of bolt hold opens on a lot of guns will do it. It's a convenience to aid in reloading an empty gun, not a safety device. And as with all safety devices, don't put 100% of your trust into it.
While it might not be in the official manual of arms, during inspection of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines or M14s(M1a1s) you'd slap the butt to release the bolt.
Yep.
Mini-14's also do it with a slap to the side or rear of the butt-stock.
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Leave the bolt forward until it needs to be pulled back for some reason?
Sounds like a fix to me.
Probably better for the springs too. I do sometimes leave a mag in it, but the bolt is always closed, so no safety issue. Ironically the exception to this is on the range where they have an "actions open" policy. Here I can see where it would be posible to drop/jostle a gun and create a potentially unsafe situation. Still, the safety should be on and ideally there shouldn't be a mag in the well when moving to your station. Those who shoot three gun can comment on how those safety issues are dealt with on a dynamic course.
FQ13
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Bolt hold open isn't an issue on some ranges because they require the yellow chamber flags. I have (or had) several semi-autos without a bolt hold open feature (e.g., Winchester Mod 77) so the chamber flags solve the safety issue.
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I just tested my CMP Garand, on an open bolt. After several tries of hand slapping the crap out of it, no success in closing the bolt.
I did give it some buttstock jolts on a double folded blanket on the tile floor, but I did not slam it on bare tile...Seems like abuse.. ::)
My Frankenstein AR did not close the bolt while giving some raps on a blanket on my tile floor either. I have heard of this happening, but ask myself why is the bolt open????
Empty mag, reloading.
Clearing and Inspection.
Other than that, the bolt is closed. I picked up a Badger oversize charging handle latch for $20. (Much cheaper than the BCM option), and can rack, tap and roll, very easily, without the split finger motion.
Just FWIW....Like a 12g pump action,..loaded on an empty chamber. No slapping, clubbing, beating, or hitting the floor will cause a ND. But a sound "shucking will".... ;)
and I hope the BG hears it....might just save his life if he runs for the hills.
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Probably better for the springs too. I do sometimes leave a mag in it, but the bolt is always closed, so no safety issue. Ironically the exception to this is on the range where they have an "actions open" policy. Here I can see where it would be posible to drop/jostle a gun and create a potentially unsafe situation. Still, the safety should be on and ideally there shouldn't be a mag in the well when moving to your station. Those who shoot three gun can comment on how those safety issues are dealt with on a dynamic course.
FQ13
Exactly, I think you're doing your rifle a disservice by storing it with the bolt open. If you want to display an empty chamber for safety sake use a chamber flag or just remove the BCG for storage. You're reducing the reliability of your rifle by keeping the spring under tension. I don't think a heavier buffer would have any effect on the bolt slam issue, if anything I would think it would make it more likely to happen. I'd try replacing the buffer spring and leave it closed, it's probably prone to slamming do to a weakened spring.
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Exactly, I think you're doing your rifle a disservice by storing it with the bolt open. If you want to display an empty chamber for safety sake use a chamber flag or just remove the BCG for storage. You're reducing the reliability of your rifle by keeping the spring under tension. I don't think a heavier buffer would have any effect on the bolt slam issue, if anything I would think it would make it more likely to happen. I'd try replacing the buffer spring and leave it closed, it's probably prone to slamming do to a weakened spring.
No, they all do it. It has nothing to do with the buffer spring, it's because the bolt catch doesn't have very much bearing surface so it doesn't take much to jar it loose.
If it were buffer related a heavier spring would make it more likely, by putting more wear on the minimal bearing surface.
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I stored a Mini-14 for 10+ years with the bolt locked open.
Took it out of storage and ran 500 rounds through it without a hiccup.
It still has its 25 year-old original springs.
YMMV.
(Note: I do not rely on this gun for defensive purposes)
Another PegLeg side story:
I did learn a valuable lesson from a good friend years ago about poor cleaning habits and keeping a bolt closed for storage. A friend fired a bunch of cheap Chinese ammo through his Mini-14 and didn't do a thorough enough cleaning before he put it back in his gun cabinet. A few weeks later he pulled it out to go hunting and the bolt was seized shut. A week-long soaking in PB Blaster, a wooden dowel and a dead-blow hammer later and we finally got it running again.
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I stored a Mini-14 for 10+ years with the bolt locked open.
Took it out of storage and ran 500 rounds through it without a hiccup.
It still has its 25 year-old original springs.
YMMV.
(Note: I do not rely on this gun for defensive purposes)
Improvements in metallurgy, new alloys, and heat treat processes have a lot to do with it, newer springs have much less tendency to develop a set.
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No, they all do it. It has nothing to do with the buffer spring, it's because the bolt catch doesn't have very much bearing surface so it doesn't take much to jar it loose.
If it were buffer related a heavier spring would make it more likely, by putting more wear on the minimal bearing surface.
Really, I currently own 7 AR's and I just went and slammed the crap out of every single one with the bolts locked back and not a single one let go. I get that the surface area of the catch is small but if you have a receiver that's in spec and quality internals then it should hold just fine. I wasn't really saying that the weaker spring was the cause, more of an effect of keeping your bolt locked back for no good reason. If you really want to stop it make sure you have good internals but I don't understand why anyone would want to store a rifle long term with the bolt locked back.
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As always great advise. Now the rifle is sitting in the safe with the bolt closed! the mag is still sitting on the shelf right next to it just in case the 9 rounds of 00 buck does not get all the bad guys since that is under the bed ;D. Thanks all
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Really, I currently own 7 AR's and I just went and slammed the crap out of every single one with the bolts locked back and not a single one let go. I get that the surface area of the catch is small but if you have a receiver that's in spec and quality internals then it should hold just fine. I wasn't really saying that the weaker spring was the cause, more of an effect of keeping your bolt locked back for no good reason. If you really want to stop it make sure you have good internals but I don't understand why anyone would want to store a rifle long term with the bolt locked back.
My Sportical did. Hell, I had to try it, who didn't after this thread? (maybe we should start a new one "AR owners who banged their rifles on the floor to see if the bolt closed" ;D). Well, mine did. A good soild tap and we were in battery. Its a Sportical, so not exactly cream of the crop, but a new fact I learned from DRTV.
FQ13
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My Sportical did. Hell, I had to try it, who didn't after this thread? (maybe we should start a new one "AR owners who banged their rifles on the floor to see if the bolt closed" ;D). Well, mine did. A good soild tap and we were in battery. Its a Sportical, so not exactly cream of the crop, but a new fact I learned from DRTV.
FQ13
I thought I slammed mine pretty hard but maybe I didn't hit them hard enough... ;D
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Hold it by the barrel and drop it about 6 inches onto your toe wearing leather boots or shoes.
I'm thinking that with out thinking you held it by the receiver and may have been holding the release locked.
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Hell, I had to try it, who didn't after this thread?
FQ13
I DIDN'T! I practiced DA revolver shooting last night.
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I'm paranoid about dust.
I could never store a weapon with the action open....think of all the dust creeping in!!
I shun weapons that fire from an open bolt for the same reason. At least the AR has the decency to cover up the hole.
Any dust that creeps down the barrel of my guns deserves to be shot. :D
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Hold it by the barrel and drop it about 6 inches onto your toe wearing leather boots or shoes.
I'm thinking that with out thinking you held it by the receiver and may have been holding the release locked.
Nope, I held them just below the flash hider and slammed the butt onto a tile floor. I hit one so hard I actually thought I cracked the tile for a second. I've had a bolt slam before, I just couldn't recreate it on demand.
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I have never heard about this issue relating to the ar15. I pulled both my 5.56 carbines and my .308 and niether slammed home. I dropped all three to the ground from about 4 feet in the air. I guess not all ar's are built the same.