The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Majer on December 02, 2011, 06:27:24 AM
-
Here's the story, Colt is opening a factory in Florida
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/gov-scott-announce-new-jobs-coming-osceola-co/nFq6C/
-
And how many of those jobs are coming from the old plant?
Pecos
-
And how many of those jobs are coming from the old plant?
Pecos
Might be some management, and a hand full of QA and Engineering types, but the manufacturing floor does not pay enough to make it worth relocating.
Every one else will be hired locally.
-
Might be some management, and a hand full of QA and Engineering types, but the manufacturing floor does not pay enough to make it worth relocating.
Every one else will be hired locally.
Or they will move on their own dime...
-
Or they will move on their own dime...
If they do they will probably get hiring preference, but I doubt that many will.
When S&W moved T/C production to Mass none of the hourly employees moved and that was a lot less distance to Family and friends, (100-150 miles ) than Conn to Fla. (1000+/- )
-
These "sweet deals" to attract industry really make me groan.
Not that the company is getting a "deal", but that there is something to deal with in the first place.
The state is, in effect, saying... "If you locate in Fl. we won't burden you with all the onerous hassles to do business that we've dumped on our current corporate base."
If they didn't make it difficult do do business in the state to begin with, they wouldn't need to do favors to get new ones to move in.
-
It's called capitalism Solus. A word and practice not used over the last three years of BHO. States always offer "incentives/deals/tax breaks" to bring business to states. Especially manufacturing jobs.
It's also called competition. Bushmaster was all set to go to KY, when Chucky Schumer made them an even sweeter deal to go to NY. (I'm still shaking my head at that one)...
Same with Boeing in SC. It's the bottom line.
Although, I'm not a fan of Shoot Straight's Charles O'Meara, he kinda helped "kill" the open carry legislation in FL. Standing there with the Tampa Bay Sheriff saying "open carry scares cops and civilians, and responsible gun owners can't be trusted with such a duty." Is BS.
Plus his prices are too high.
But good for Colt, makes up for Para moving to NC for the same reason.
-
I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.
its not capitalism, its a form of Cronyism.
-
I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.
its not capitalism, its a form of Cronyism.
If you could triple your earnings, have tax breaks, and less BS, (especially what you deal with in Ca), by moving to Arizona, you'd jump, and you know it.
-
I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.
its not capitalism, its a form of Cronyism.
Exactly TAB.
There should not be enough of a tax to need getting a break..
To think that the state is doing you a favor is like believing that if someone stops hitting you in the head with a ball bat, they are being nice to you.
-
Corporations are ALL getting hit over the head with a ball bat. Small business's even more, The smart ones determine which batter hits the softest or find the largest loopholes. (Which are legal).
Until the tax code changes, this is the reality.
-
Corporations are ALL getting hit over the head with a ball bat. Small business's even more, The smart ones determine which batter hits the softest or find the largest loopholes. (Which are legal).
Until the tax code changes, this is the reality.
With that I will agree...it is reality...
But if giving a company a break on the BS is good for the state economy because a business will prosper and grow without it, why the hell are they doing it to the companies there already? They don't want them to grow and prosper and be good for the state economy?
Yeah, it is the reality, but it is stupid and just another way the government sucks the people dry.
-
It's no different the a store having a sale to attract new customers or a bank offering a "special introductory rate".
Attacting new busnesses is a better way to create jobs than running deeper into debt and making yourself even less competitive.
-
It's no different the a store having a sale to attract new customers or a bank offering a "special introductory rate".
Attacting new busnesses is a better way to create jobs than running deeper into debt and making yourself even less competitive.
It compares to a store having a sale only if the store is selling stolen goods.
The state government should not be taking anything from citizens or business that they don't need to do only the job they are allowed by law to do. If they can give a company a break on what they steal from them to entice them to move to the state that only means they are stealing more from those who are already there.
The 'smart' way to attract business is to provide a low tax structure, both corporate and individual, minimal hoops for business to jump through, a low cost of living and an education system that will actually produce a quality product and you will have a real 'Workers Paradise".
The key is low taxes, minimal government intervention and an attractive place for quality workers to live. No reduction in the amount of beating a company will receive in the state will be necessary to attract the company or workers, and there won't be any beating of the companies already there to allow for any reduction as a bribe.
Sort of like a honest store advertising "Low everyday prices". While a company can be motivated to make as much profit from it's customers as possible, that SHOULD NOT be an objective of any government.
-
Staying out of the fray here but one thing I noticed over the year I lived in CT recently is how much the gun laws have been subverted since I left the state in 1996!
It could be that Colt was shopping for another place to build due to restrictions that CT is placing on them here. More and more I see the laws of CT coming in line, somewhat, with MA. Considering that, and the absolutely ridiculous tax burden placed on business in "Collecticut", I don't blame them.
Like S&W, some of Colts firearms cannot even be sold within the states borders. Recently, the State Legislature tried to start a magazine restriction bill, thankfully, it never got of committee but they'll keep trying.
-
This is nothing more than corporate greed. Colt is moving so they can hire workers for less money than they are paying in CT. How many of the suits moving with the plant are going to take a cut in pay? Yeah the state's incentives are bringing some jobs to FL (at the expense of jobs in CT) but at what cost? There is a loss of tax revenue and what about the cost of infrastructure? This is what we are teaching in our business schools, The bottom line is the holy grail.
A lot of people on this forum rant and rave about the too powerful unions and I agree that some have gone too far but we are seeing a return to the business philosophy of the pre-union era when corporate heads carried nothing about the workers making them money. "Keep them poor and we'll make all the money." I think it stinks.
Rant over, Pecos
-
It's a valid point Pecos, no need to apologize! I hadn't looked at it that way myself.
CT is a right to work state but there is a large union base in the shipbuilding and other industries. You make a good argument.
I will add this though. If wages are lower in Florida, there are several reasons for it. One is the cost of living which is in the stratosphere in the north. Another is the amount of illegals that reside in Florida that will tend to drive wages down. I have direct experience with this as a company I worked for in the past was based in St. Pete and paid the men their four or five bucks an hour less than we were paying in RI for the same work!
A lot of things make a company move or open other facilities, they are all based on economics in every aspect. I still don't have a problem with a company or corporation trying to make a profit. Colt has no friends with borders as far as guns are concerned.
-
With that I will agree...it is reality...
But if giving a company a break on the BS is good for the state economy because a business will prosper and grow without it, why the hell are they doing it to the companies there already? They don't want them to grow and prosper and be good for the state economy?
Yeah, it is the reality, but it is stupid and just another way the government sucks the people dry.
To some extent the founders wanted it that way. If a state was punishing the winners they could vote with their feet and leave to a more accomodating state. We've seen it in CA with a huge exodus of businesses (and retired cops to OR) and in WA with Boeing trying to locate some manufacturing to SC (which was stopped, until this week, by the UNIONS because SC is a right to work state and WA is not-part of why I left.)
It also gives we the people an incentive to get involved in our local politics, which is hard when we are working twice as hard to support our families and the PARASITES! Did you know that 60% of Oregonians are on food stamps or that the number of NJ food stamp recipients has quadrupled in the last, what, four years?
We are so screwed.....
-
This is nothing more than corporate greed. Colt is moving so they can hire workers for less money than they are paying in CT. How many of the suits moving with the plant are going to take a cut in pay? Yeah the state's incentives are bringing some jobs to FL (at the expense of jobs in CT) but at what cost? There is a loss of tax revenue and what about the cost of infrastructure? This is what we are teaching in our business schools, The bottom line is the holy grail.
A lot of people on this forum rant and rave about the too powerful unions and I agree that some have gone too far but we are seeing a return to the business philosophy of the pre-union era when corporate heads carried nothing about the workers making them money. "Keep them poor and we'll make all the money." I think it stinks.
Rant over, Pecos
Then you must like paying more for a Colt than for a similar gun from another maker.
-
Guys, I have no problem with a business making a profit. If a business doesn't make a profit it won't be a business very long and their goods/services will no longer be available to the consumer. What I have a problem with is a business which closes in one location and moves to another in order to pay it's employees less in order to make more money while the management team makes the same money they made before the move. That is corporate greed! That's why businesses relocate. Not to lower the cost of their products. That's what I think stinks.
No Tom, I don't want to pay more for a Colt. I think they are over priced now, why would I want to pay more? When has the cost of a product gone down when a manufacturer move to cheaper labor? Our auto companies produce most of their vehicles in cheap labor markets and the price goes UP every year.
What we need in this country is to throw this "them against us" attitude between management and labor out with the bath water and everyone sit down and figure out how to keep and put people to work and everyone get a good wage. BUT as long as the suits and the non-suits are self-centered "it ain't gonna happen". We can't get it down in government so what makes us think business will?
Pecos
-
Guys, I have no problem with a business making a profit. If a business doesn't make a profit it won't be a business very long and their goods/services will no longer be available to the consumer. What I have a problem with is a business which closes in one location and moves to another in order to pay it's employees less in order to make more money while the management team makes the same money they made before the move. That is corporate greed! That's why businesses relocate. Not to lower the cost of their products. That's what I think stinks.
No Tom, I don't want to pay more for a Colt. I think they are over priced now, why would I want to pay more? When has the cost of a product gone down when a manufacturer move to cheaper labor? Our auto companies produce most of their vehicles in cheap labor markets and the price goes UP every year.
What we need in this country is to throw this "them against us" attitude between management and labor out with the bath water and everyone sit down and figure out how to keep and put people to work and everyone get a good wage. BUT as long as the suits and the non-suits are self-centered "it ain't gonna happen". We can't get it down in government so what makes us think business will?
Pecos
Gee, I wonder why that might be ?
That means getting rid of the socialist, anti capitalist, adversarial Unions
-
I just re-read the article to get the numbers right. They said that the 63 jobs to be added to the area would average $43,000.00 annually! That's not chump change and probably in line with what they are paying in the Hartford area. The difference would be that $43K is good money in Florida and "barely scraping by" in Connecticut.
I've lived here 29 years in CT and MA and worked for up to 35 bucks an hour salary. I'm barely squeaking out an existence on that income.
I also serious doubt they're giving up completely on Hartford. Their museum is there is too much firearms history in the area. They have freeways named after firearms inventors!
-
$682,000 per job ?
-
It's called capitalism Solus. A word and practice not used over the last three years of BHO. States always offer "incentives/deals/tax breaks" to bring business to states. Especially manufacturing jobs.
It's also called competition.
Wrong on both counts TW. Last I heard capitalism and the free market didn't involve taxpayer subsidies to bribe private business to move from state to state.If the tax laws are different its one thing. This is something else entirely. This where I agree with the late lamented fullauto (come back shane ;D) and the rest of the libertarians. This is statism and crony capitalism Rick Scott, the supposed savior against socialism spends $22K of my money per job to bribe a company. How in the hell is that the free market? >:( ???
FQ13 I'm glad Colt is coming, but I don't like how it happened
PS I also agree with Pecos.Its fashionable to bash unions, but remember they came about for a reason. Businesses are every bit as contemptuous of the free market as union bosses and they will jump on a government subsidy like a crackhead on a welfare check. And GOP leaders like Scott rant against socialism while transferring tax payer money to corporate profits through direct wealth transfers? Give me a break. News flash. That IS socialism, its just the beneficiaries that change
FQ13
-
Gee, I wonder why that might be ?
That means getting rid of the socialist, anti capitalist, adversarial Unions
That also means getting rid of the capitalistic, greedy business bosses who want to make multi-million salaries while keeping the peons poor. Do people like Morgan and Rockefeller come to mind, Tom?
What I still saying is we, as a people, need to fix the problem. Labels put on and diatribes written about those who don't agree with you will not fix the problem. The problem comes home to both sides of the labor/management relationship and needs to be fixed there.
Pecos
P. S. That 43k salary is an average. Colt is opening a region headquarters and factory. What is the regional manager going to make?
-
Just like the Occupy crowd, anger and frustration at evil "corporate greed" is misdirected. ALL business, corporate and small companies, all have to play in the world called "Regulations & Taxes".
City, County, State, all want their share of a companies/corporations revenue; than comes big ol' Momma FED, wanting more, AND creating an environment that is NOT business friendly....
Just ask BHO....Real business friendly, hence the damn near stagnant job market.
For example:
Colt makes an AR in CT, and sells it retail for $1000 to stay competitive with other AR's. The "cost" to Colt to make that AR in CT, with increased labor, taxes, materials, rent, city, state, and Fed taxes,...takes up a good chunk of that $1000.
Hence less profit per unit sold.
If they can PAY to relocate, but yield a higher profit per unit. "It's the American Way"... Just like Remington, Bushmaster, Winchester (made in Japan, God help us)., Para, and others I can't recall right now, is not corporate greed but with this POTUS, simply survival.
Bitch and moan at the regulations and laws, especially in the "gun friendly NE", that are causing them to leave. Just like the textile industry in the Carolina's... also a right to work state.
If a Colt worker watches and runs a C&C machine in CT, for $30.00 per hour, and a guy in Florida can be trained to do the same job for $20.00 an hour, with no State Tax, and less expensive embedded costs....The Company makes more money...
Certainly the goal of any business. Big or Small.
Until the Cities, Counties, States, and big ol Momma Fed get that,....(because they are the greedy monsters), business will move elsewhere...
-
That also means getting rid of the capitalistic, greedy business bosses who want to make multi-million salaries while keeping the peons poor. Do people like Morgan and Rockefeller come to mind, Tom?
What I still saying is we, as a people, need to fix the problem. Labels put on and diatribes written about those who don't agree with you will not fix the problem. The problem comes home to both sides of the labor/management relationship and needs to be fixed there.
Pecos
P. S. That 43k salary is an average. Colt is opening a region headquarters and factory. What is the regional manager going to make?
And some think FQ is a tool ?
You're spouting Marxist BS with out even knowing it.
In case you didn't know it, it was the Rockerfellers, (invented the oil industry) The Morgans (banking ) Carnagie (Steel) Astor (furs), Vanderbuilt (Railroads ) who built this country.
Do you have a retirement account ? If so you are one of those greedy capitalists who need to be taxed more.
Where do you think the Interest comes from ?
Does the money Fairy bring it ?
People like you are what screwed up the country, you'll believe any crap you're told if it puts some one else's money in your pocket or let's you blame somebody else for YOUR having to work .
-
Tom you forgot the Kennedy's with the booze, tobacco, opium and hookers..... ::)
-
Tom you forgot the Kennedy's with the booze, tobacco, opium and hookers..... ::)
Or the Rick Scotts with the government susidies? At least the Kennedys sold something of value. ;)
FQ13
-
Or the Rick Scotts with the government susidies? At least the Kennedys sold something of value. ;)
FQ13
Hey but I have two Colts,...and will gladly pay to visit the Colt museum with a hog hunt on the way back,.... ;D
Got Bacon?
-
Hey but I have two Colts,...and will gladly pay to visit the Colt museum with a hog hunt on the way back,.... ;D
Got Bacon?
With this bozo we sure as hell got pork. ;)
FQ13
-
Love him or hate him,.....He's quietly lowering the State's unemployment rate, and bringing business to Florida.....OMG!!!! The End Is Near!!!!! Repent!!!! Repent!!!!!
The only pork I get is at Publix on sale.... ;)
-
Gentlemen, I don't need a primer on how business works or why business does what it does. I will readily admit that I'm not in the highly educated class of this country. I'm just one of those peons who has to work for a living. I only wish I could be one of the elitist class who not only knows everything about everything but has the obligation to not only tell all those who disagree with them how wrong they are and put labels on them.
Having said that let me put forth a couple things: first, I am not in favor of business doing anything that will put their employees out of work just to make money. If a business is dumb enough to sell it's products for a loss they deserve to go out of business not move to raise their profits and kill jobs .Second, if the employees in a business are dumb enough to not want to work with a business to keep their jobs, they deserve to lose them.
If what I just wrote is Marxist, Socialist, or Communist then I guess I'm all three or at least one. Also if you check out the meaning true communism is really a good idea. What we refer to as "communism" is actually Socialism. I have lived in a true communist society and it worked just fine. I just couldn't put up with the celebacy.
As a last word on this ranting those who will call me a fool rather than foolish are showing their inability to carry on an intelligent conversation.
Pecos
-
Reread it, I called you a Tool, not a Fool.
But I won't argue with you about your own words.
-
Back to the point that Tom and TW have ignored. How is giving a cash money transfer of $22k per job anything even remotely related to the free market? I'm not talking about a company moving to a state with better tax laws or looser regulations. I'm talking about transfering wealth from some people to others (in this case $1.4 million tax dollars). How is giving that money to a corporation not socialism? It seems like welfare to me, only from my pocket to a corporation's rather than an unemployed person's. There all sorts of reasons Colt should move to Florida (or any other low tax right to work state). But taking MY money to give to someone else? What in God's name is free market about that? Scott is a hypocrite. Business loves welfare as much as a drug addict, and Scott's version of the GOP will give it to them for votes and money the same as the Dems will to the poor. Who pays? I do, and I'm sick of it. I'll offer low taxes and right to work laws, but if you want my tax dollars in your pocket you can KMA. Tom, TW, the ball is in your court on this one.
FQ13
-
Okay, I'll bite..
Without going into my own personal feelings and history on the notion of Municipal/State incentives for industry/business to come to their AO..
How is Florida paying, by whatever vehicle, 22k per job to Colt in exchange for an equal number of jobs at 30k average a bad thing for the people of Florida? Who wins? Don't the people and economy of Florida/"everybody" win?
If CT wanted to compete for the jobs for it's citizens, couldn't it have? Or have the unions so much pull that it's just not possible to keep a good paying job in the State when the employer has had enough?
To me, the Chamber of Commerce is just as bad as the Union, if left unchecked. I believe labor laws (under the Commerce Clause) can replace the unions and be much more responsive to the needs of the voters.. I also think that a Community College System could go a long way toward filling the need for skilled people to run the machines if we could just force the Arts and Drama Dept's out of the Presidents Office..
I'll stop before I wander too far off topic.. ;D
-
Business 101 FQ, as you missed in during your Political Science career:
FTA:
The jobs will pay an average salary of just over $45,000.
Colt is making a $2.5 million investment, with the state incentives of about $1.4 million, including $250,000 from the
governor's Quick Action Closing Fund and funds for workforce training.
Scott says the project will be monitored to make sure it offers a return for taxpayers.
Incentives are NOT, repeat NOT cash!! Most are streamlining the bldg. permitting, licensing, and sales tax discounts, etc.. that amount to 1.4 million dollars
Your thinking micro again....The $250,000 covers the (insert expletive lawyers) that have to do ALL the paperwork and get it filed. Drop in the bucket in the scheme of things...
Colt will PAY, to build a new facility, pay local contractors to build it, who will get lots of bldg. materials, local concrete,...and employ local workers when its done...
Sheesh FQ, go to the "other" side of campus where the business majors hang out once in a while... ;D
-
Laying aside any "brand bias" and such.............
I know that the northeastern area, particularly Connecticut and surrounding areas are steeped in firearms history. Many of our most famous brands originated there......BUT, things have changed........ ridiculous laws and a lot of anti-gun bias from the 'right' folks, along with other factors are pushing the industry away.
I think moves like this fall in line with Barrett not dealing with California, i.e. "turn your back on us and adios." If more firearms businesses moved to the more gun-friendly states, maybe the 'right' folks would get it.....but I doubt it.
-
I wonder if CT, having elected the first Democrat in twenty years to govern the state, had anything to do with Colts decision?
Just a thought...
-
I keep hearing about how wonderful the government is to be giving such great benefits to draw in business.
Thats like saying the government would be doing us all a favor by honoring the 2A as it was written and intended.
They are not doing us any favor, they are just letting us have what is rightfully ours in the first place.
That is the same with what Fl. is doing. It is only giving back the opportunities that the all the businesses in the state should have to maximize production and employment.
It only seems like a blessing because they have been beating us so long we think it is the normal environment and are grateful and thankful when they lessen the frequency or force of the blows.
I worry so many of us have this mindset that what the government gives back to us was, somehow, theirs to start with.
-
I see it more like the Heller decision, the money was already taken from the people, it was gone.
They made a concession by using it to create jobs instead of some green BS that would have put more people out of work.
-
I see it more like the Heller decision, the money was already taken from the people, it was gone.
They made a concession by using it to create jobs instead of some green BS that would have put more people out of work.
Oh, I agree that it is one of the better uses of the money they have stolen.
My point is that many many times of the benefit of that use of the money would be had if they didn't steal it in the first place.
Helping 3% of the economy by returning the money doesn't get much praise from me when then other 97% would have been benefiting all along with the same increase in production that the new company expects if it had not been taken.
-
That's my point Solus.
They already took it and it wasn't going to help anybody.
It's not as if they upped the taxes to cover this.
The money was already gone.
-
Why did Boeing even consider expanding to SC? Because the costs of doing business in the Pacific NW is far more than the cost of expanding to SC.
What did Washington State do? NOTHING...
What did the unions offer? NOTHING...
What did the NLRB, and the BHO admin do?
Sue them....
Yet SC, said hey, we need jobs and have skilled labor, no State Tax, and would love to have you set up shop in our state...
As a business,....it's a DUH!......
-
That's my point Solus.
They already took it and it wasn't going to help anybody.
It's not as if they upped the taxes to cover this.
The money was already gone.
Correct, Tom...but some seem to be excited about this excellent work the government is doing here.
Like a thief who cleaned out your house and a bit later brought back your microwave and left it on your porch for you to find.
I'd not be looking to give the crook any citizenship awards instead of jail time.
-
Thats like saying the government would be doing us all a favor by honoring the 2A as it was written and intended.
I would support a candidate/State Govt. that made that move, then, in court, make it impossible to remove.. Gaining ground is gaining ground..
Remember the old (shortened) story about the guy stranded on his roof in a flood who prayed "Lord, save me!". He passed on two boats and a helecopter, saying that he was waiting for the Lord to save him.. In Heaven, he asked why, and the Lord reminded him of what he had provided..
It's your choice..
Just a thought..