The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: sksmedic on December 06, 2011, 10:57:20 PM
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Came across this on another forum. All I can do is shake my head and say WTF?
Does the value in this sort of training outweigh the danger. Kinda seems like a fatality waiting to happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCz8Tl2ELk&feature=player_embedded#!
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Within the first minute of the video, I have to ask why the guy with the gun (I guess supposedly fending off the other guy) was shooting beyond the immediate threat of the attacker?
If the attacker is trying to disarm you, would you not pump a couple into him and then transition to the threat father away? Or am I missing something in the video?
Mark 2:00- Hit with my weapon? Hit with my weapon? And with the muzzle, no less....yeah...that's just what I want to do, jab someone in the goozle-pipe with my gun and potentially create an un-shootable gun.
Had to stop watching at around 4:50......
JMHO, which may be wrong.........FWIW.
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Firearm is an impact weapon? ???
Looks like Phillipino stick fighting in the second minute, but how does that pertain to a handgun? It reminds me of my TKD class with some weird ninja-pistol stuff thrown in.
Someone trying to seperate himself from the other trainers out there?
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There is not enough beer in the world to make this make sense. I gave up, and then I went back, but I gave up again when he went into the "poke the guy with your gun kata". ::) Look, as Peg mentioned, why am I shooting at someone down range when there is a guy within kissing distance that I haven't dealt with? Does this make sense to anyone? If I'm wrestling with a guy he has my undivided attention. If my gun is free he gets dealt with first before I try to shoot someone else with what I'm sure is going to be an accurate shot (ninja dont'cha know). ::) As far as holding my gun sideways and poking him in the throat.........Sweet mother of God, are people actually paying for this? What part of its a gun and you are fighting for your life do these people fail to understand? Sorry, maybe I'm not sufficiently tactical, but if ever I saw a bigger Charlie Foxtrot I can't remember.
FQ13 who could be very wrong, but I doubt it here
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First off, all of these idiots are insane! I don't know who's worse the trainer teaching this or the students willing to participate.
Like Peg, I don't understand some of the techniques. If I have a loaded handgun and the guy next to me is a threat, I'm shooting not swinging. It only becomes a club when it's completely out of ammo, or I have no other choice. If I'm poking him in the throat with it, I can more easily shoot him in the throat with it (Something that is going to happen at some point during this training by the way). I'm also not taking much attention off of him to address another guy farther off. If I have someone shooting from a distance, I'm going to move and likely attempt to use the nearest bg (eg the one I have in an arm lock given their scenario) as cover.
Some of you that are/were in the military please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they teach you to use your rifle as an impact weapon given certain circumstances. I believe that's just the butt of the gun and usually just to knock someone out or finish someone on the ground? Still, if I have distance and a functioning firearm, it's a shoot first scenario.
The only way I'm knowingly going to let someone muzzle sweep me that much and/or shoot past me is if I'm incapacitated and have no choice.
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Like I said WTF!!!!!
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This falls in with the Yaeger video a couple years back where they had a photographer squatting next to the targets during live fire. Actually, this is worse - shoving a firearm in someone's neck - during training? ? ? With your booger hook on the trigger? ? ? ? ?
Wankers like these are someday going to get someone dead, and the whole industry will take it on the chin. Seems like every tough guy Oakley-wearing operator back from the sandbox (enough cliches?) has started a training school. Shop wisely, folks. If you see this crap, run the other direction.
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Wow! ??? No need for Range Safety Officers in the Phillipines.
Unorthodox training. Not my cup of tea. As for using my handgun as an impact weapon, only if I run out of bullets and have no other options.
Crazy stuff on the video. But on youtube, you can find anything.
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Much of the stick fighting where they were imitating using the muzzle and butt as impact weapons very much mimicked the moves we were taught in Bayonet Fighting in basic. Of course, it was emphasized that you used your bayonet because your rifle was empty and could not be reloaded in time. Anyone remember horizontal and vertical butt strokes (and hold)?
As for the shooting outside the immediate threat area, it might be that they were training as bodyguards and simulating getting past a personal attack to protect your client.
It also might mean that the distant attack was armed and was preparing to attack with a firearm while the close attack was hand to hand.
As for using your pistol as an impact weapon, that can only make sense if ammo is dear and you are confident you can take out the close guy hand to hand and save the ammo for ranged targets.
Another view of the hand to hand fight. They first countered the close attack and fired two rounds from a retention position away from the close target. This might have been simulating taking two shots AT the close target and then shooting at the ranged target.
They did it several times...divert the attack, then shoot twice from retention before shooting at a distant target. The two shots from retention would be exactly as you would fire into a close attacker once you diverted the hand to hand attack.
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Sombody gonna get kilt in that training. I agree WTF?
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Sorry for the slow response, I've been working on season 4 of The Best Defense in Tulsa.
Here's my take: I do believe in the use of the pistol as an impact weapon; however, all other gunhandling rules still apply while doing it. Waving your non-gun hand in front of the muzzle, with our without a flashlight in it, is a bad thing. Also, if someone is grabbing at my gun at contact distance, he is my number 1 problem--not some U/I threat downrange. If I do manage to control him in some way, I seriously doubt that he'll stay still enough to not spoil my aim on his buddy. The entire premise of those drills was pretty sketchy...
Stay safe,
Mike
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I've watched this video several times and ponder HOW the instructor came up with such a high level of insane douchebaggery with firearms.
One can ONLY think that he wanted to get famous for putting up a you tube video showing such idiocy or that he is some ninja never-gunna-be that wants his 15 minutes of fame in front of a pile of arfcom wanna-be's.....
Either way, poorly thought out and executed.
Andy
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The guy is a ClownShow. While the choreographed-action-movie crap with live guns is only mildly offensive, the scene where he shoots the target between two students puts him over the edge as someone not to be taken seriously in any way. Children shouldn't be allowed to watch the video for fear that they might try to emulate.
-RJP
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I don't know which is sadder. The fact this guy promotes and sells this kind of dangerous stupidity, or the fact there are actually people out there that will pay to "learn" it?
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It's good to know that here at down range, you can get feedback from industry experts. I truly appreciate you guys taking time to talk with us everyday folk. ;D