The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: billt on December 08, 2011, 06:10:36 PM
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This is the biggest bunch of lunacy I've ever seen! Who is just going to stand there and let you use them as a human shield? No one is going to swing a stick like that. And check out the 2 guys standing next to the target while he shoots live ammo at it!, (4:45) This is unbelievable. Talk about UNSAFE!
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=18326.0
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Methinks it would not meet the Pincus seal of approval..
Some instructors,(keyword some), as more often than not, are taking a hard rock music promo video into a level of SD training that has fundamental safety issues.
They have been posted here before.
I hope the weekend warriors, that pay big money for this training, go back and read The Art Of The Rifle, by Col Jeff Cooper.
Common sense is injected and deemed mandatory when it comes to the primary rule(s) of firearm safety.
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There appears to be too many of these guys popping up, with no way to properly vet them. It's one thing to train with someone with minimal skills. It's another to do it with someone so blatantly dangerous they could in fact put someones life in danger. What these idiots are doing borders on criminal. Not to mention the black eye it gives shooters in general. The anti gun community salivates over this kind of crap.
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There appears to be too many of these guys popping up, with no way to properly vet them. It's one thing to train with someone with minimal skills. It's another to do it with someone so blatantly dangerous they could in fact put someones life in danger. What these idiots are doing borders on criminal. Not to mention the black eye it gives shooters in general. The anti gun community salivates over this kind of crap.
So do personal injury attorneys. ;D
FQ13
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Yes let me stand there while you shoot in my direction. Bunch of A-holes if you ask me. >:(
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There is another thread along these lines somewhere.
I watched a progrem with Joan Landon (SP) where she was at the FBI Acadamy and was part of an entry team where they used one of their own as a hostage and went in shooting!!!!! I guess if you know your team it might be OK but it isn't something I would want to do with a bunch of strangers.
JMHO
Richard
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There is another thread along these lines somewhere.
I watched a progrem with Joan Landon (SP) where she was at the FBI Acadamy and was part of an entry team where they used one of their own as a hostage and went in shooting!!!!! I guess if you know your team it might be OK but it isn't something I would want to do with a bunch of strangers.
JMHO
Richard
The FBI HRT, Navy SEALs, and British SAS all do room clearing exercises with real people as the "hostages" (For the SAS it is sometimes the PM or a member of the Royal Family ).
But those guys do that AS A TEAM several times a day every day.
The folks in the video are just reckless mall ninjas trying to be different from the herd and setting them selves up to kill some one.
Notice James Yeager quit trying to defend his foolish "down range" training after a photographer got shot ?
These chumps are the same, some one will get shot, they'll get sued and they will go away.
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The FBI HRT, Navy SEALs, and British SAS all do room clearing exercises with real people as the "hostages" (For the SAS it is sometimes the PM or a member of the Royal Family ).
But those guys do that AS A TEAM several times a day every day.
The folks in the video are just reckless mall ninjas trying to be different from the herd and setting them selves up to kill some one.
Notice James Yeager quit trying to defend his foolish "down range" training after a photographer got shot ?
These chumps are the same, some one will get shot, they'll get sued and they will go away.
With a video camera or a bullet? I knew about the camera filming the photographer by a target stand during live fire, I never heard about one getting shot though.
From his attitude and on-camera persona, I would not have been surprised if this had been filmed at a Yaeger training site, though. Sad, isn't it? When you try to distinguish yourself from the rest of the pack, one often takes unnecessary risks.
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My google foo is weak today, but a photographer was hit by a bullet at a Yeager training class with in the last year or so.
I'm pretty sure there was a thread here about it.
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It just proves that any douche off the street who happens to have a little military experience (or not) can open up a "training school". Do your research before spending money anywhere. I did some research into this G1 Tactical Solutions and Chris Collins. This school is in the Philippines. I doubt they'd last a month pulling bullshit like this in the states. They're training contractors and a'holes like this are a big reason why I stopped working foreign contracts. You run into people with this kind of "training" too often now.
Everybody wants that paycheck. Unfortunately for every good instructor or school there are at least 3 who are totally unqualified. Thankfully at least most of those operate much more safely than this. My company runs similar drills to those all the time, the only difference is we use paintball to do it. Additionally we train together at least once a month, not students who just showed up that weekend. Anybody stupid enough to stand down range next to a live fire target deserves to get shot. "Trust your partner" my ass.
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It just proves that any douche off the street who happens to have a little military experience (or not) can open up a "training school". Do your research before spending money anywhere. I did some research into this G1 Tactical Solutions and Chris Collins. This school is in the Philippines. I doubt they'd last a month pulling bullshit like this in the states. They're training contractors and a'holes like this are a big reason why I stopped working foreign contracts. You run into people with this kind of "training" too often now.
Everybody wants that paycheck. Unfortunately for every good instructor or school there are at least 3 who are totally unqualified. Thankfully at least most of those operate much more safely than this. My company runs similar drills to those all the time, the only difference is we use paintball to do it. Additionally we train together at least once a month, not students who just showed up that weekend. Anybody stupid enough to stand down range next to a live fire target deserves to get shot. "Trust your partner" my ass.
Gee, common sense, they ought to try that. I'm not an operator, but I am a teacher. Here is one thing I know, if you want to really teach/test someone, you test to fail. See how much someone can do before they screw up, and then use that failure point to teach them those things they have demonstrated they don't know. It works great in the classroom and I would guess with paintballs. Live fire? Not so much. Teach folks to deal with incoming where they get splatted and you can do a debrief and everyone learns what went wrong and why. Do it with live ammo? Someone is going to jail and someone is going to the ER. What possible good can this do? Simulating a dangerous situation by creating a dangerous situation makes no sense to me.
FQ13 who thinks rule number one of SD is to avoid getting shot at, eg, avoid this school. ;D
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Yep. Absolute f**ktards in my opinion.
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I am only playing devil's advocate here.
The only thing that I can say "giving the benefit of the doubt" is that noticing the orange mag plates maybe they are using blanks????.... All of his mags sport the orange plate. So maybe this is training/non-lethal/blank ammo..
Thoughts????
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They may be using some type of training round like wax rounds or simunition. You can see hits on the target. Either way it depicts a very irresponsible way to train, especially without some type of disclaimer on the video. I hate disclaimers but if some teenagers watch this youtube video and duplicate this "training" and get killed these ass clowns should be liable.
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They may be using some type of training round like wax rounds or simunition. You can see hits on the target. Either way it depicts a very irresponsible way to train, especially without some type of disclaimer on the video. I hate disclaimers but if some teenagers watch this youtube video and duplicate this "training" and get killed these ass clowns should be liable.
You mean like Tex Griebner? ;D
FQ13
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haha, yea "my training took over... I called my parents!" hahaha
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Notice James Yeager quit trying to defend his foolish "down range" training after a photographer got shot ?
Tom, do you have a link for this? I ask because this is the first time I heard someone was actually shot in one of his "training" sessions.
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Tom, do you have a link for this? I ask because this is the first time I heard someone was actually shot in one of his "training" sessions.
I can not recall someone actuly getting shot however saw this
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/08/22/tactical-response-training-try-not-to-shoot-the-photographer/
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"We've always been kind of controversial as far as safety goes"
Yeah, I guess. ::)
Next to the Cris Collins video, that is without question one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. As was said, the camera could have been mounted on a tripod and fired by remote control, and gotten the same photographs and video. Why would anyone do something so stupid and foolish?
"True safety does not exist"
While that may be true in a philosophical sense, he sure tries his best to make absolutely sure it doesn't! His "response" to the first video was nothing more than a lot of foolish excuses for allowing something so stupid to deliberately take place. Trying to compare the danger of driving a car on a highway, to shooting with someone so close to the point of impact, for no good reason other then to snap a photo, or get some video is total nonsense. Especially when it is not even necessary.
I'm really not liking what I'm seeing with a lot of these so called "professional trainers". Taking foolish risks with firearms when there is little to no reward, is just plain nuts. I can't believe his insurance carrier, (if he even has one), would tolerate such a thing so outright stupid. That's a six or seven digit lawsuit just waiting to happen.
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I should add that James Yeager has a lot of excellent firearms lubrication and maintenance videos. These videos were no doubt assembled based on a great deal of experience and shooting. With that said, I have as much desire to "train" with someone who takes such foolish risks, about as much as I do to pet a pissed off Rattlesnake.
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Tom, do you have a link for this? I ask because this is the first time I heard someone was actually shot in one of his "training" sessions.
Sorry for the slow response Bill, I had not been paying attention to this thread.
It would be in the archives here .
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Wel said Billt.
FQ13 who regrets not getting his law degree. I think there is a cottage industry out there on personal injury lawsuits from these idiots. The ironic thing is that you'd probably get the biggest awards from juries made up of NRA members. ;D
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Much of this seems like gratuitous stupidity.
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I finally had to go back and watch the whole video. There are no words to convey the feelings I can't even describe to myself about what this guy is doing? How has he not killed someone yet? Or even "winged" them?
I can't choose between "asshat" or "douchebag" or "criminally negligent" - can we take a poll?
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Imagine if one of those "Students" killed the photographer? I'd hate to be the cops at the scene listening to everybody's story. How many stupid people can you interview without losing it?
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Imagine if one of those "Students" killed the photographer? I'd hate to be the cops at the scene listening to everybody's story. How many stupid people can you interview without losing it?
Depends on who's buying the coffee and donuts.
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Depends on who's buying the coffee and donuts.
Which reminds me....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTE5z9eeVGg
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Another thing is the total lack of brains exhibited by these "students". These are adults. I mean come on, how many people with an ounce of common sense would have even fired their weapon under those circumstances? I would have called the guy running that fiasco an idiot to his face, packed up my gear and left, before I would even allow myself to be on a live firing line with morons the likes of those. These people need a lot more than "training".
It's only going to be a matter of time before someone gets killed at one of these type of "classes", and the media gets a hold of it and runs with it. Then the anti's will have a field day, and rightfully so. Especially if there are photos and video of it like in this case. It's sad when we have to look out for these so called "professionals", who are out in the field doing things that a 12 year old fresh out of a NRA Hunters Safety Course, would have enough common sense not to do.
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Depends on who's buying the coffee and donuts.
Which reminds me....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTE5z9eeVGg
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On www.youtube.com type in " G1 Tactical Solutions Asia Pacific ".At 2.06 into the play take note of the guy second from the right next to Chris Collins.That guy has a company called SPS Security.This person is Nic Constantin.He is an ex prisoner who was locked in a cage for assault and armed robbery.He is seen again at 2.12 ,2.30,3.08,3.24,3.32 6.05 and at 6.08 hear chris saying FLAGED HIM as 1 untrained student flags another with a hot weapon in this off Broadway flop.He can also be seen in G1 the kill house shooting his way in.
Nic Constantin is a standover man from Sydneys kings Cross red light district.The NSW and Federal police dont want him doing security work anywhere.They have refused him a firearms permit.When he loses his contracts,which he will he will probably go back to beating and stealing.God help the cop who is called to the venue he is holding at gun point.There will be blood running in the gutters of Sydney as he and his well trained crew tacticaley remove them selves from the crime scene.Why werent these people vetted before being accepted for the famous G1 tactical courses.Where was this movie made,certainly not on a conventional range,theres people walking round all over the shop.
Can you believe he's in charge of Kings Cross/Darlinghurst security.The Kings Cross drug trade is governed by the doormen and women of Kings Cross/Darlinghurst.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/armed-robber-nic-constantin-running-kings-cross-security/story-e6frf7l6-1226015091561
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/private-army-of-the-cross-20110319-1c1bd.html
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/private-army-of-the-cross-20110319-1c1bd.html
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If Chopper Reid can legally own guns after doing his time I don't see why anybody else shouldn't be able to.
That Australian law , if you don't like it work to get it changed.
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I wouldn't. If youve done your time (and I mean the full sentence even if you're out on parole), its a clean slate as far as I'm concerned, the day that you're no longer in state custody your rights should be restored. As long as you don't reoffend. Then your past should come back to haunt you. Otherwise, no worrys on the guns mate. ;)
FQ13
PS welcome aboard, and welcome to America, where its Glocks and ARs for all hands. (Or 1911s and AKs if you like rust). ;D
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Wow! An a new Aussie and a Paki on the same thread! I didn't realize I'd recruited that far afield. Welcome guys. ;D
FQ13
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I have just recieved this email fro John Shenkin .Do not except emails from jjshenkin@yahoo.co.uk. All of the below is a cut and paste message from him about the virus.
sorry it weas a virus and has put a spyware virus into your computer
Jonathan Shenkin
Team Leader
C.S.S.P
Kabul
Tel - Afghan: +93(0) 797755311
jjshenkin@yahoo.co.uk
alternative:
Jonathan Shenkin
CEO
Samson Operations
jon.s@samson-ops.com
skype:samson1286
tel:+639213933700
http://www.samson-ops.com/
All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word:
freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope.
Winston Churchill
From: jonny shenkin <jjshenkin@yahoo.co.uk>
To: jcg@esi.com.ph; julie@asag.aero; sujkanghk@gmail.com; johnhancock290@yahoo.com; greg.stokes@yahoo.com; ruel.kapunan@citywatch.ph
Sent: Monday, 1 October 2012 3:44 AM
Subject:
(THIS IS THE VIRUS,IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOGLE WEBB PAGE)
http://lisafortin.com/wp-content/plugins/google.html?ey=zfs.jig&fxc=ar.ytf&hh=ytqq">http://lisafortin.com/wp-content/plugins/google.html?ey=zfs.jig&fxc=a.
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Ok, that was a bit vague and odd, but, if you want to post here you're welcome, just please leave the computer cooties back home in Oz, yeah? ;D
FQ13