The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: kmitch200 on December 09, 2011, 11:15:57 AM
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Picked up a gunzine yesterday, Guns & Ammo Handguns issue Feb/March 2012.
Dick Metcalf does a review of the new Hornady Critical Duty ammo. Harder lead, locked in thicker jacket, but still retains the polymer insert of the FTX to prevent plugging. Bullet has cannelure for crimping to resist bullet setback from chambering. It defeats ALL the FBI barrier tests and still penetrates past the 12" minimum.
He states "no expanding bullet handgun load has ever passed all the penetration tests - the killer barriers being the glass and auto-body steel."
Sounds like this will force the other manufacturers to keep those R&D Depts working.
Now for the part that pissed me off....
Metcalf writes:
But it is critically important for the armed citizen understand that personal defense ammunition standards and law enforcement ammuniton standards are not the same.
Police officers may be called upon by their duty to exchange fire with criminals concealed behind walls....or inside a vehicle. But for an armed citizen, legally justifiable "personal defense" is just what term implies: personal. Up close, exposed, face to face.
Even in the most armed-citizen friendly states, a civilian who shoots at a criminal hidden behind a wall or inside a vehicle will likely be considered by law to be engaged in a gunfight, not engaged in self-defense.
WTF!?!?!?
I've got a news flash for Dick Metcalf - IF I'M IN A GUNFIGHT, IT IS MOST DEFINITELY SELF DEFENSE!! I am not going to be shooting at Pedro and Jamal because they're slingin' crack on "my" corner. If I'm in a gunfight it's because some SOB is trying to kill me. The distance that might take place at is not going to be my choosing.
And the "shooting at someone behind a wall is not self defense"? What if the azzhole is shooting at me through the wall IN MY HOUSE? I'm supposed to wait for the BG to get "face to face" in my bedroom? I may choose to deal with some drywall dust.
What if the vehicle glass or auto body I'm wanting to shoot through is MY TRUCK because I'm inside and can't hit the gas to get outta Dodge?
I realize that cops and citizens have different responsibilities. That's why I don't pull people over for 'swerving while texting' and almost hitting me. But to think that two groups of people who are using low powered pop guns (handguns) to stop a deadly threat have vastly different ammo needs is ludicrous.
As the guys at Hornady informally put it, Critcal Defense ammo is for us. Critcal Duty ammo is for cops.
Give me a friggin break. ::) At least Hornady doesn't resrtrict sales to LEO...not that the restrictions of others amounts to squat anyway.
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He gets paid by the word, he has to fill space.
I can't count all the stupid sh!t I have seen in "gun magazines".
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I know of a case right down the street from me where a guy heard someone in his car-port breaking into his car. He came around the corner, saw the guy in his car and preceded to dump 7 or 8 rounds of 9mm right through the door and windshield killing the would be car thief. His defense and claim of self defense was he knew he left a pistol in the glove box of his car and since the thief was in the car he presumed that the thief was now armed. It worked perfectly he was not even taken in for further questioning, let alone charged with anything.
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Whoa, ease up kmitch, Metcalf is from IL. Have a little respect for his deprived up bringing. He has to remain politically correct.
Pecos
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Whoa, ease up kmitch, Metcalf is from IL. Have a little respect for his deprived up bringing. He has to remain politically correct.
Pecos
Just because he lives in the State of Denial is no excuse for assuming we all do.
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Idiot aside, it sounds like another advance in SD ammo.
Bittersweet news.....all of a sudden I feel like my stock of carry ammo just became 'range rounds'
Well, I'll get over it...just marketing psychology...since I'm inot in a position to make replacements.
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I wouldn't worry about your stock solus, as long as it's a good quality factory defense load, gold dot, golden saber, hydra shock or similar it's still more than adequate for defensive use. Every new development in ammo tries to convince people that all previous loads are now obsolete but we're still a long way from that. The most important thing in defensive ammo is that it functions 100% reliably in the weapon you're loading it in. That and a well placed shot will do way more than any "innovation" in design.
As far as this quote: "Even in the most armed-citizen friendly states, a civilian who shoots at a criminal hidden behind a wall or inside a vehicle will likely be considered by law to be engaged in a gunfight, not engaged in self-defense."
Really, has he never heard of castle doctrine. I know Florida, Texas and many other states have adopted the principle that if you're in your own home you have no further duty to attempt to retreat or otherwise abstain from any means of deadly force. If someone is in my house and I know I can effectively eliminate the threat by shooting through a wall or other barricade and I can do this without putting my family at risk then I'm sending rounds through said wall. If the perpetrator is in my home I have little to no restrictions on how I choose to eliminate the threat.
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Whoa, ease up kmitch, Metcalf is from IL. Have a little respect for his deprived up bringing. He has to remain politically correct.
Pecos
Metcalf must be drinking from the same well as the Crook county politicians. Gotta keep an eye on that northern IL water.
Solus, like you I won't be burning up my carry stores anytime soon. Blasting ammo that sells for close to or over a $1 a round into a berm isn't in my near future. The Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Cor-Bons, etc. are going to be in my house for a while.
I like the idea that Hornady came up with - it should give the other ammo companies a kick in the butt to refine their loads. ;)
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Metcalf must be drinking from the same well as the Crook county politicians. Gotta keep an eye on that northern IL water.
Naw. he's from a town about half way down state and on the western border. He's just an old Illinoisan who doesn't know better. I lot of folks I know have learned to ignore most of what he writes. Keep your ammo it all works.
Pecos
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Just because he lives in the State of Denial is no excuse for assuming we all do.
AMEN Brudda
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Metcalf must be drinking from the same well as the Crook county politicians. Gotta keep an eye on that northern IL water.
Solus, like you I won't be burning up my carry stores anytime soon. Blasting ammo that sells for close to or over a $1 a round into a berm isn't in my near future. The Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Cor-Bons, etc. are going to be in my house for a while.
I like the idea that Hornady came up with - it should give the other ammo companies a kick in the butt to refine their loads. ;)
I know. My lament was a yin-yang type of comment. I have always been a sucker for the latest and greatest but realize it is often a marketing ploy, if not always to some degree. I use Hornady Critical Defense or CORBON DPX which do as well without the improved barrier penetration of the new stuff.
I'd say the replacement ammo I'd be buying would be the Hornady Critical Duty, but because of a side benefit of this product introduction, the other Hornady, and perhaps other producers, ammo will fall in price, I might take a deal on still very effective loadings.
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You have to hand it to Hornady though...They stay buisy with R&D when it comes to new stuff and when it comes to marketing.
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You have to hand it to Hornady though...They stay buisy with R&D when it comes to new stuff and when it comes to marketing.
That is true...in recent years from TAP to Critical Defense to Critical Duty....each adding advantages...
Just pick where you budget and need falls :D
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I use Hornady TAP and Hornady Critical Defense. Great ammunition. As for what message Mr. Metcalf was trying to convey ? Who knows? Laws vary from state to state but I really love the "Castle Doctrine". And if it comes down to you and a bad guy in a firefight, I hope you win with whatever ammo you are using.
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It's Ammo and the evolution of a product....Federal Hydra-Shok were LEO issued, than civilians were marketed and it was the shiznit premium ammo back in the day. Winchester Ranger, PMC Starfire, Those evil Black Talons, that are now the SXT, same lubalox coating and everything without the non-PC name...
Than came the Golden Sabre, Speer GD's and others, which helped improve the ballistic performance of even "leetle" rds. like the 9mm, .380, even the .32.
So good for Hornady, They make great SD/carry stuff. My Speer Gold Dot's in my Kel-Tec .380, work great, feed reliably, and are an effective rd. in that platform. When I can't carry my M85 snub with Golden Sabre .38 +P's. or my 1911 with Federal HST's....or my M&P .40 with Winchester SXT's...etc,....etc,...
Point is, they have to stay in the game of a growing gun market...Gun sales are way up...The latest greatest of 2 years ago, needs a new face, new technology, a little marketing, and I read the performance reviews, even through auto-glass, heavy clothing, sheetrock, and other barriers, and the weight/shape retention is pretty impressive.
Still comes down to shot placement and practice.....Many thousands and thousands of folks have died with "ball ammo"...also...
and so it goes,....
The gun rags, play to the hype, and if your life is on the line,....you shoot what you got,...if it's a premium super dee duper ammo, all the better.
Stop the threat. Protect you and your family. That's the bottom line.
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Whoa, ease up kmitch, Metcalf is from IL. Have a little respect for his deprived up bringing. He has to remain politically correct.
Pecos
Having spent 38 years of my life in the unfriendly confines of Illinois, and 21 years here in Arizona, I can somewhat understand Metcalf's poor thought process on this matter. If you were to shoot someone in a self defense situation, (you be the judge of the actual meaning of "self defense"), you stand a much worse chance of being prosecuted in Illinois, than you would most other states, especially out here in Arizona where firearms are an all but accepted way of life.
Remember, Illinois is one of the few states left that won't allow concealed carry of any kind. And it's highly doubtful they ever will. They are worse than California, New York, or even Hawaii in regards to anything Second Amendment related. The last thing they want in that state is a highly publicized legal self defense shooting that involves a handgun, or any other type of firearm for that matter. It is really sad how all of this effects peoples thought process there.
In the neighborhood where I lived, I wouldn't get invited to block parties because neighbors knew I owned guns, and "was into" firearms. After we moved out here it was like moving to a completely different country. I grew up in Oak Park, Illinois where it was illegal to even own a handgun. And the police didn't have to enforce it. Your neighbors would rat you out to them if they knew. These people were more wrapped up in their Frank Lloyd Wright architecture, than they were their freedoms or personal liberty. This is how you get a socialistic government run by idiots like Rod Blagojevich and Rahm Emanuel in power, and keep them there. How hard did Emanuel have to campaign? He didn't. He all but walked into office.
This is how you get guys that think like Metcalf. They just don't know any better. They're like inbred puppies in that regard. And there are a lot of them! As we see idiots like the "occupy" crowd increase in numbers, this type of stupid thinking is on the rise. People are completely willing and able to flush their freedoms right down the toilet with a great big smile on their face because they don't know any better, and they don't care. Just as long as they get something from the government. A nice job with a big pension, or if you prefer not to work, a handout. None of this favors gun ownership, and only promotes idiotic thinking on the subject.
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As the guys at Hornady informally put it, Critcal Defense ammo is for us. Critcal Duty ammo is for cops.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/m58/Unconstitutional.jpg)
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There is a fork in the road that we missed, and there is no right or wrong choice when you come to the fork except to do nothing. This fork leads to either continuous change or status quo. When it comes to self defense gun choice and ammunition choice we often get so wrapped up in the latest, greatest, handiest, and most powerful that we forget that the tool that works best for me is the best tool for me.
What drives change? Do we change because we have a need, or do we change because of marketing? Researchers and tinkerers develop new ideas out of a drive to do the best they can, and to keep their paychecks. Manufacturers develop new and more products to drive their sales up. Sometimes these are better for someone or everyone, and sometimes they are nothing but marketing gimmicks. Development of new products often leads to better products, but it also often leads to better ways to empty bank accounts of nonthinking consumers.
There was a time when magazines, like all media, were sources of valuable information. However, today magazines, like all media, they are a source of expanded promotion of sponsors products. When we read articles like this we need to not only evaluate the product, but we must also evaluate who is writing the article, where their information is coming from, and what they are truly trying to tell us.
What benefit does this new ammunition really offer you? That is the question, and the only correct answer is the one that applies to your situation. If you look at this from the same point of view as selecting a firearm to carry and use, and in selecting other ammunition there will be as many different answers as there are options:
1. Is it made in your caliber;
2. Is it available in strong quantities in your market;
3. Does it work in your gun;
4. Can you afford to shoot several hundred rounds for reliability checking and at the end of each regular practice session;
5. Does it objectively offer any benefit over your current ammunition choices?
Answer yes to all of these and it is worth a try. Answer no to any of these and it is time to resist the urge to jump on the "new and improved" bandwagon. Even if you answer yes to all five questions it still may not mean that jumping on the bandwagon is the best choice.
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There is a fork in the road that we missed, and there is no right or wrong choice when you come to the fork except to do nothing. This fork leads to either continuous change or status quo. When it comes to self defense gun choice and ammunition choice we often get so wrapped up in the latest, greatest, handiest, and most powerful that we forget that the tool that works best for me is the best tool for me.
What drives change? Do we change because we have a need, or do we change because of marketing? Researchers and tinkerers develop new ideas out of a drive to do the best they can, and to keep their paychecks. Manufacturers develop new and more products to drive their sales up. Sometimes these are better for someone or everyone, and sometimes they are nothing but marketing gimmicks. Development of new products often leads to better products, but it also often leads to better ways to empty bank accounts of nonthinking consumers.
There was a time when magazines, like all media, were sources of valuable information. However, today magazines, like all media, they are a source of expanded promotion of sponsors products. When we read articles like this we need to not only evaluate the product, but we must also evaluate who is writing the article, where their information is coming from, and what they are truly trying to tell us.
What benefit does this new ammunition really offer you? That is the question, and the only correct answer is the one that applies to your situation. If you look at this from the same point of view as selecting a firearm to carry and use, and in selecting other ammunition there will be as many different answers as there are options:
1. Is it made in your caliber;
2. Is it available in strong quantities in your market;
3. Does it work in your gun;
4. Can you afford to shoot several hundred rounds for reliability checking and at the end of each regular practice session;
5. Does it objectively offer any benefit over your current ammunition choices?
Answer yes to all of these and it is worth a try. Answer no to any of these and it is time to resist the urge to jump on the "new and improved" bandwagon. Even if you answer yes to all five questions it still may not mean that jumping on the bandwagon is the best choice.
Very good criteria.
This new ammo in question is said to offer better barrier penetration than the current Critical Defense ammo.
To some this will be a plus, to others a negative..
If it is a plus and it is available, but costs more, which would be expected, you only need to determine if the cost is worth that plus.
One thing this reminds me of is the theory that every complicated decision can be broken down into a series of yes or no questions.
This is a good example for that and m58 has pretty much laid them out.
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From reading the article it would seem that "Critical Defense" (which I already carry) is all I need because I don't need all the characteristics of the "Critical Duty" and some of them might work against me down the line if I have to defend myself and/or family.
Richard
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If I may play Devil's advocate here: Sounds as if Metcalf is making a common assumption that armed citizens in a self defense situation, should not be shooting through barriers. Ever! In some cases shooting at someone behind a barrier could be considered reckless, simply because there may be more folks (hostages, by-standers, etc.) behind the barrier, than just the shooter. If innocent lives are placed in danger, I would agree with his assumption. But as with many ass-umptions about shooting situations, there is no way to know. Sometimes it may be appropriate, but each event has to be judged on it's own merit.
Basic firearm safety rules demand that we should never shoot until our sights are on the target, and we are certain of our background. If our adversary is behind a wall, there is no way we can have him in our sights, and there is no way to be certain of who, or what else may be there.
Law enforcement folks need to follow the same basic safety rules as everyone else, because there is a lawyer attached to each and every bullet that leaves a gun, even a cop's gun. Maybe, especially a cop's gun.
I think what we are seeing is marketing hype on the part of Hornady. I like, and carry their product in some of my pistols. I presently carry Critical Defense in 3 calibers. I wonder if there is really a difference between Critical Defense and Critical Duty? If you can make someone believe they are getting a bite of the forbidden fruit, they will be willing to pay a higher price for it.
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In the ol' Valhalla days, The Pincus, demonstrated a home defense tactic of shooting through barriers, ex. interior hollow core doors, common sheetrock for interior walls, especially if known multiple threats exist, ....BUT....always knowing the threat is of a lethal nature, acknowledging and possessing a situational awareness of your particular environment. (apts. condos,) etc, and if not plausible, it simply is not part of the program...
Moreover, the individual variables will be different for each SD situation.
But the old addage applies.....
If your fighting fair in an SD, critical dynamic threat situation, ............
your tactics suck...
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Sounds as if Metcalf is making a common assumption that armed citizens in a self defense situation, should not be shooting through barriers. Ever!
I'll buy that. Then why shouldn't it apply to cops as well? When is a cop more justified to shoot than a citizen, especially if it's going to pose a hazard if and when he does it? You can argue the whole apprehension thing, but look at how many innocents have been killed in high speed chases. Many started with nothing more than a traffic violation. This can only be worse when you add firearms and shooting into the equation.
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I'll buy that. Then why shouldn't it apply to cops as well? When is a cop more justified to shoot than a citizen, especially if it's going to pose a hazard if and when he does it? You can argue the whole apprehension thing, but look at how many innocents have been killed in high speed chases. Many started with nothing more than a traffic violation. This can only be worse when you add firearms and shooting into the equation.
What a maroon.
You are putting commonsense and "officialdom" into the same sentence.
That never ends well.
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"EVER" is a long time. I believe shooting thru auto glass and or auto sheet metal is unfounded unless the bg is trying to run me or my family over therefore I shouldn't need C Duty ammo. I can see shooting thru a wall or door if I am certain my family is safely out of the line of fire and I am very certain the bg can be hit and for this C Defense should work well. That being said, if I do shoot thru a door or wall I stand the chance of any round exiting the house and hitting a neighbor! "Ever" starts to make more sense then.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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It's quite possible that you may need to shoot an armed carjacker through the door of your own vehicle.
There was a case a year or 2 ago posted on here where a guy opened his truck door to get in and a robber pointed a gun at his head, the intended victim shot through the door, the BG was hit but because the rounds lost so much going through the metal he was not badly injured and ran away.
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I'll buy that. Then why shouldn't it apply to cops as well? When is a cop more justified to shoot than a citizen, especially if it's going to pose a hazard if and when he does it? You can argue the whole apprehension thing, but look at how many innocents have been killed in high speed chases. Many started with nothing more than a traffic violation. This can only be worse when you add firearms and shooting into the equation.
Actually I've often wondered why cops aren't held to higher standards in regards to justified shootings and collateral damage...they are the professionals and should be making better snap decisions and not react as strongly under stress at a citizen..and should be more aware of where their shots will go than plain citizens...
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Actually I've often wondered why cops aren't held to higher standards in regards to justified shootings and collateral damage...they are the professionals and should be making better snap decisions and not react as strongly under stress at a citizen..and should be more aware of where their shots will go than plain citizens...
I've heard that argument given for CCW holders as well.
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Actually I've often wondered why cops aren't held to higher standards in regards to justified shootings and collateral damage...they are the professionals and should be making better snap decisions and not react as strongly under stress at a citizen..and should be more aware of where their shots will go than plain citizens...
Its simple, they have more political power. It makes me sick. I've never understood why goverment employees, are not held to the same standard( at the very least) as the rest of us. More would be better.
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Its simple, they have more political power. It makes me sick. I've never understood why goverment employees, are not held to the same standard( at the very least) as the rest of us. More would be better.
Very true. There are all type of police shootings that get swept under the rug. Just Google the Erik Scott COSTCO shooting in Las Vegas.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/gunned-down-in-vegas-what-really-happened-to-erik-scott/
It drew a lot of bad press for the Las Vegas Metro Police. They have had multiple questionable shootings over the years regarding the use of deadly force. Not one has resulted in any kind of disciplinary action taken against the department, or a single officer. If those same shootings involved citizens, there would be a lot of people in jail with felony convictions.
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Let's go to the shooting through a barrier issue mentioned a few comments back. Read what the ammunition is possible of, and consider this situation:
You are in a parking lot or ramp. You are assaulted and begin a retreat. As you defend yourself in a retreat mode, the bad guy takes cover behind a vehicle, but is still shooting at you. Is this not a setting where the ability to penetrate a barrier would be a good thing? Shouldn't I be allowed to shoot through a car door for full effect in self defense?
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Even easier than that.
Bad guy in your house. Knows you have spotted him and that you are armed.
He is armed and is standing to the side of a doorway and shooting through it wildly with only his hand and gun around the wall.
Shoot him through the wall and stop him from maybe hitting you, someone else in the house or some person walking out front when a shot goes out a window...or the guy next door in his bathroom shaving....
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Shoot him through the wall and stop him from maybe hitting you, someone else in the house or some person walking out front when a shot goes out a window...or the guy next door in his bathroom shaving....
This scenario sums up what the average home owner is faced with, in regards to overpenetration. Without exaggeration I could more than likely kick my way out of my house through an outside wall, with a pair of heavy, steel toed work boots. There is nothing to stop me except drywall, insulation, chicken wire and stucco. Even my fat a$$ wil easily fit through a 16" stud spacing. Interior walls are even less of a obstacle. If my foot can go through it, so can a bullet. Most any bullet.
Once you drop the hammer you are responsible for that slug, regardless of the threat you are under at the time you let it fly. If you kill a child sleeping in their bed across the street, "But the guy was SHOOTING at me!!" won't be much of a defense. Get out your checkbook because it isn't going to be pretty. If your a cop, much the same applies, except for the fact it will be the department that gets sued, most likely not the individual officer involved. Yes, he could lose his job, and may face criminal charges, but he'll be in better overall shape than you the citizen would be under the same circumstances.