The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: seeker_two on December 26, 2011, 07:31:01 PM
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After watching a recent episode of Sons Of Guns (and shaking my head a lot at the thought of an 8" derringer being considered a "ladies' gun"), I started thinking.....
Is there any hard data being collected that shows what type of handguns are being bought by women....esp. first-time buyers? And where would I go to find such data?
Are women buying pocket autos?....snub revolvers?....Glocks?.....Judges?......
Can anyone point me in the right direction?.....
Thanks in advance.....
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In the last 18 months my wife has bought (all by herself with only a little tech. input from me) a Walther PPS 40S&W, a Ruger LCP and I think there's a Hogue stocked Rem 700 .308Win. 20" in the near future.
MP
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In the last 18 months my wife has bought (all by herself with only a little tech. input from me) a Walther PPS 40S&W, a Ruger LCP and I think there's a Hogue stocked Rem 700 .308Win. 20" in the near future.
MP
That must be one helluva purse she's toting around ! ;D
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Can only speak for what I have observed in the shop I work at, but we sell a lot of LCPs to women. And snubbie revolvers. Sad thing is, two of the hardest guns to try to master shooting with. But they see them, they are light, and they think because they are little and light that they are "cute:, till they shoot the damn things. I always try to get first time shooters to get proper instruction, instead of having thier bubba husbands and boyfriends pick out their guns for them. But, usually, it don't work, they buy the little cute gun, go out and shoot it, hurts them like hell or they can't hit anything or both, and never shoot it again.
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Can only speak for what I have observed in the shop I work at, but we sell a lot of LCPs to women. And snubbie revolvers. Sad thing is, two of the hardest guns to try to master shooting with. But they see them, they are light, and they think because they are little and light that they are "cute:, till they shoot the damn things. I always try to get first time shooters to get proper instruction, instead of having thier bubba husbands and boyfriends pick out their guns for them. But, usually, it don't work, they buy the little cute gun, go out and shoot it, hurts them like hell or they can't hit anything or both, and never shoot it again.
I think this is where manufacturers are making a big mistake. Putting pretty pink cylinders on these revolvers, and molding them in colors that are better suited for a 4 year old girl's Birthday party, may help sell guns to women, but not for the proper reasons. Guns are not a "fashion statement", and should not be treated as such. It takes away from the total seriousness of the whole situation.
Carrying a firearm involves making the conscious decision to carry, with the intent to use if necessary, deadly force. There shouldn't be anything that takes away from the seriousness of that decision. All of this silly "styling" manufacturers are building into these weapons aimed at the female buyer is doing just that. It takes away from the more necessary practical aspects of the gun, and puts more focus on looks, style, and eye appeal. Unfortunately women believe they must be "in style" to do anything.....even kill someone. Playing on that type of consumer weakness is a very poor judgement call in my opinion.
Smith & Wesson started this whole thing with their "Ladysmith" series of guns that were aimed at the female population. They were designed with weight and controllability in mind, while maintaining good stopping power should the need arise. This started out as a good thing. From there it's gone all the way to silly, with these weapons molded in every color of the rainbow, and as was mentioned, much too small and light to offer much in the way of controllability. There are far too many confusing factors already involved for a woman who is totally unfamiliar with weapons, in making the proper choice of a tool that could be called upon to defend her life. It is silly to play on style as a method to secure a sale, over the ability to be able to handle the weapon effectively, simply because it's more important that it be, "cute" and "pretty".
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Billt: I respectfully disagree. I like the fact that the gun companies are making guns in colors other than black or stainless. It opens a broader market, and styling and color sells more product. I don't think it takes away from the "deadliness" of the product anymore than the styling of the Camaro or Challenger takes away from the responsibility of driving safely.
I do agree with you about S&W's "lady" guns. The Ladysmith line and the Julie Golob M&P's are good guns that are well-suited for just about any shooter....women included. And slapping a pink finish on any old gun does not a ladies' gun make. A lot of companies need to do more market research on what women buy and what women like to shoot.....hence my question.
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tombogan: "That must be one helluva purse she's toting around ! ;D"
Don't even joke about it :-X ;)
Actually she almost always carries the PPS on her belt, under a sweatshirt or sweater in the cooler weather. It'd be appendix carry if she weren't wrong handed. The 700 came about after her seeing 'Shooter' and fancying herself as a 'sniper', we took my 'scoped AR to a 100yd range and she got better groups than I could and it was the first time she'd shot it, GI trigger and all! - so I guess she's our family sharpshooter. Here she is with her first buck, taken about 3 weeks ago:
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff372/StuartCowley/P1010077-1.jpg)
The rifle is my 1904 .30-'03 Springfield
MP
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I like the fact that the gun companies are making guns in colors other than black or stainless.
The problem isn't that they are making them, but rather that it becomes to involved in the criteria of making the proper choice. If a woman chooses the weapon based on the necessary factors such as weight, grip, stopping power, and controllability, then moves on to color, etc., that is fine. It should not become a deciding factor in the purchase of a concealed carry weapon. Judging by the popularity of these guns, one cannot help think it might be. Many of these petite guns lack sufficient stopping power and accuracy to be carried for self defense purposes.
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My daughter is 5'1" and carries/owns a Sig Sauer P228 in 9mm. She's tried smaller frames like my Ruger SP101, SR9c and a Walter P22 but prefers the larger handgun. She shoots it well too!
I think she'd carry more often with something smaller but it's not a priority for her at this point.
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Agree with billt on this. I have seen too many women come in the shop and buy a gun just because it is pink! No amount of reasoning on my part usually talks them out of it either. Most of them seem to want something to carry concealed, and most of them get shot little if at all. It does no good to have a gun and not know how to use it! I am not against pink guns, or any color guns for that matter, but nobodys decesion to buy one should be based just on the "cuteness" factor. The little .380s are hard for anyone to hang on to, and a lot of women have trouble racking the slide on them. The small light weight .38 snubs are a bear to shoot, even for experienced handgunners. I can shoot almost any gun better than a J frame gun, just because there aint much to hang on to. (And I love DA revolvers, second only to the 1911) I know women have smaller hands than men, but the law of physics do not change. The smaller the gun, the less weight to the gun, the more it kicks. Lots of women have trouble shooting the small DA revolvers DA. We rent guns where I work, and I will try my best to convince first time shooters of either sex to rent a few guns and decide from that which one is right for them. Most of them will still go with the "cute" guns (which we seldom have a used one that they can rent!)
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Can only speak for what I have observed in the shop I work at, but we sell a lot of LCPs to women. And snubbie revolvers. Sad thing is, two of the hardest guns to try to master shooting with. But they see them, they are light, and they think because they are little and light that they are "cute:, till they shoot the damn things. I always try to get first time shooters to get proper instruction, instead of having thier bubba husbands and boyfriends pick out their guns for them. But, usually, it don't work, they buy the little cute gun, go out and shoot it, hurts them like hell or they can't hit anything or both, and never shoot it again.
Agreed - snubbies are horrible "first gun" choices - for anyone. I took a female friend shooting last November, had her shoot all of my pistols. She was looking for something to carry.
She did not like the LCP - as I have noted it is a handful even with the pinkie stop. She loved the Sig P220 (and no, I did not coach her on what to like! ;) ) both in its .22 conversion configuration and in the native .45ACP. I wanted to get her at least to handle some of the others available, like the M&P and Rugers which would be better for her to carry. But she got work busy and I don't know what if anything she may have bought.
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This may sound sexiest. This thread highlights the differnce between men and woman. Men are concerned about performance and woman about how it looks. We cannot rationalize it because we cannopt think the same way they do.
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I have to split my opinion here.
I'll agree with BillT and Gunman that are not good choices for learning to shoot, HOWEVER, for the purpose of concealed carry women have different priorities than men, they are built different, and are faced with fashion inspired limitations that men do not have to deal with in what, and how, they can carry.
Another consideration is the types of threats faced by women which are more likely to be at contact range where accuracy is not an issue.
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Another consideration is the types of threats faced by women which are more likely to be at contact range where accuracy is not an issue.
Which is why I've been suggesting to my daughter she buy a J-frame snub. She can already shoot well, now she needs to have it with her and a 32 ounce Sig just weighs down her Coach handbag! She won't have it when she needs it!
My problem is that her boyfriend/husband/man meat thinks that revolvers are for "old guys"! He's one of those shiny penny sort of kids! Tacticool and all that...
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Another consideration is the types of threats faced by women which are more likely to be at contact range where accuracy is not an issue.
If a woman is going to be at contact range when she deploys her firearm then a snubby should have even more appeal. If you are pushing the muzzle of a revolver into some attackers midsection it is more likely to go BANG when you pull the trigger. Do that with most autos and you will find that you have forced it out of battery and pulling the trigger is a very frustrating and unrewarding activity if that happens.
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Several thoughts.
-- Watched the local range coach working with a lady who had bought an LCR. He was really frank with her about how for "target" work, learning the basics and "fun" it was a poor choice, and strongly suggested she try some of the rental guns to work on "basics". And that is how they sell to most everyone at my range. Try some of the rentals before you buy.
-- Personally, I think the small guns (LCR, LCP, etc.) are better shot 1 handed anyway.
-- Yes, if the semi-auto is just slightly out of battery it won't fire, but then a revolver has to "revolver" before it can fire. Any number of things can interfere with it. I think semi-autos have an edge in first shot capability, but revolvers have an edge in follow up shots. These are only slight advantages and I'm thinking of close up, out of the pocket/purse scenarios.
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Or, shooting from inside a pocket or purse! A revolver will go bang every time whereas an autoloader will probably fail to cycle properly!
Teach the person/woman/child/novice to shoot with the basic fundamentals and then transition to a more suitable carry weapon when they've mastered the basics. My kid shot a thousand rounds (at least) from a Walther P22 (when it functioned properly) before we considered what she might buy.
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Or, shooting from inside a pocket or purse! A revolver will go bang every time whereas an autoloader will probably fail to cycle properly!
Teach the person/woman/child/novice to shoot with the basic fundamentals and then transition to a more suitable carry weapon when they've mastered the basics. My kid shot a thousand rounds (at least) from a Walther P22 (when it functioned properly) before we considered what she might buy.
+1
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Or, shooting from inside a pocket or purse! A revolver will go bang every time whereas an autoloader will probably fail to cycle properly!
I didn't actually mean shooting from inside the pocket or purse, just that a traditional holster wasn't involved and the gun was being drawn from a pocket or purse.
And I don't buy that revolvers will go bang every time especially in a pocket or purse. The cylinder can get bound with cloth or loose items. And if there's an exposed hammer something can get caught under it as well. I think a semi-auto has a better chance for the first shot in a confined/messy environment.
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Have any of you actually shoved a semi-auto into your stomach hard enough to keep it from firing? I just did it with a 1911 and a Beretta 92. They both failed to fire but the pressure needed made either gun a weapon in my belly without the need to fire. I wouldn't want either shoved into my belly 'cause it really hurt and I, for one, would back off. I recommend double action revolver to new shooters, both sexes, because they are simple to use, easy to load and unload and easily seen to be loaded. A miss-fire is easily followed by a second pull of the trigger for the next loaded chamber. Are the light snubbies easy to control? No but not beyond the capability of the average woman. Are the light snubbies target gins? NO, they weren't meant to be and never will be. We are talking about close range (under 25 feet)shots here and you are shooting at a somewhat larger target than a bulls eye at 25 yards. Any good snubbie will keep all its shots inside a B27 target at that range.
I do agree that proper training is a must. Those of you who work at a shop that rents guns, do you offer basic training to your female customers? That could and would help in your sales, I'm sure. I usually recommend a local range which has such training. Said range also has classes for women only, no men. Start them out with some light loads, something which doesn't beat the hell out of their hands and don't let the husband/boyfriend/lover, within the same range area. You all might be surprised what the women are capable of doing.
Just my thoughts, Pecos
Quit edit: any gun can be jammed by the crap found in the average pocket but a revolver is less likely to be affected than a semi-auto which has a stove pipe because the empty case had no place to go.
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..... any gun can be jammed by the crap found in the average pocket but a revolver is less likely to be affected than a semi-auto which has a stove pipe because the empty case had no place to go.
Ah, just my point. In your example the semi-auto has already gotten off its first shot, but has jammed for the second. For the first shot a semi-auto has very little exposed that can fail. But for the second shot a lot.
A revolver has to turn the cylinder before the first (and every) shot, so has a higher chance (maybe slight) of FIRST shot failure than a semi-auto.
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Ah, just my point. In your example the semi-auto has already gotten off its first shot, but has jammed for the second. For the first shot a semi-auto has very little exposed that can fail. But for the second shot a lot.
A revolver has to turn the cylinder before the first (and every) shot, so has a higher chance (maybe slight) of FIRST shot failure than a semi-auto.
When I carried a snub every day, I checked the action inside my coat pockets. Both of them are canvas jackets and there was nothing to snag the cylinder or the hammer. Like all things, knowing what is going to happen before it actually does happen is a good thing! I would never attempt that with an autoloader.
Besides, a 1911 ain't exactly good for pocket carry anyway! ;)
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Ah, just my point. In your example the semi-auto has already gotten off its first shot, but has jammed for the second. For the first shot a semi-auto has very little exposed that can fail. But for the second shot a lot.
A revolver has to turn the cylinder before the first (and every) shot, so has a higher chance (maybe slight) of FIRST shot failure than a semi-auto.
Alf, I have to agree with you IF the gun is always in the pocket or the pocket is never washed or cleaned. The gun should be regularly cleaned if carried daily. This goes back to the training thing. Keep the gun clean and it will work. Put it in a trashed up pocket and crap can get in to disable the gun. My cloths get washed regularly and the pockets are not trashed up but I generally cary in a holster. Women who carry need to be trained to keep the gun clear or get a purse with a place for the gun. For the those who pocket carry a pocket holster is probably best.
Pecos
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Is this thread about "what guns ARE women buying, or what guns SHOULD women buy ?
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Is this thread about "what guns ARE women buying, or what guns SHOULD women buy ?
Sorry, TB I got distracted by some of the remarks made on the posts. In my experience women are buying 38 Spl snubbies. There are a few who will buy something larger (Smith MDL 10 or Taurus 66) but these are few. Most are looking for home defense AND CCW. A few are looking for something for HD and plinking. Those are the ones buying the MDL 10's and MDL 66's.
Pecos
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Is this thread about "what guns ARE women buying, or what guns SHOULD women buy ?
Hey! Three pages in and we are still, more or less, on topic. What more do you want? :)
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Hey! Three pages in and we are still, more or less, on topic. What more do you want? :)
Ichi, you should know TB better than that.
Pecos
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Hey! Three pages in and we are still, more or less, on topic. What more do you want? :)
Good point, at least we're still talking about guns ;D
Sorry, TB I got distracted by some of the remarks made on the posts. In my experience women are buying 38 Spl snubbies. There are a few who will buy something larger (Smith MDL 10 or Taurus 66) but these are few. Most are looking for home defense AND CCW. A few are looking for something for HD and plinking. Those are the ones buying the MDL 10's and MDL 66's.
Pecos
I did too. what we are going on about is what they SHOULD get and why, but the actual point of the OP is what ARE they buying, and on that I have no clue, but I'm sure some one will find some sales numbers somewhere and post them.
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Good point, at least we're still talking about guns ;D
I did too. what we are going on about is what they SHOULD get and why, but the actual point of the OP is what ARE they buying, and on that I have no clue, but I'm sure some one will find some sales numbers somewhere and post them.
I said what my daughter bought on page 1...
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I said what my daughter bought on page 1...
Only 4,999,999 or so to go and we will know ;D
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Only 4,999,999 or so to go and we will know ;D
4,999,998.....Teresa carries an LCP as I recall!
She probably carries about three more but we haven't heard yet!
;)
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IIRC She's got a pair of Vaquero's as well.
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IIRC She's got a pair of Vaquero's as well.
Yes but you'd need a big purse to carry those concealed! 8)
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Yes but you'd need a big purse to carry those concealed! 8)
Kid Terico could probably work something out ;D
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Page four and no one has mentioned beer, wine or whiskey.
The only gun my wife ever bought is a Charter Bulldog, .44Spl. She has refused to consider anything else, even though I've showed her neat guns, like XD compact or G23, or PPS.
Oh! OH!. You're thinking about currently. Sorry, she bought that in 1970 so I guess either she goes down in the "isn't buying" column or the "already has all she wants" one.
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Page four and no one has mentioned beer, wine or whiskey.
The only gun my wife ever bought is a Charter Bulldog, .44Spl. She has refused to consider anything else, even though I've showed her neat guns, like XD compact or G23, or PPS.
Oh! OH!. You're thinking about currently. Sorry, she bought that in 1970 so I guess either she goes down in the "isn't buying" column or the "already has all she wants" one.
Considering she's married to you we'll put her down for S&W Revolver ,
You've bought enough of them to cover both of you and she still keeps you around ;D