The Down Range Forum
Member Section => NFA Items => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on January 01, 2012, 10:28:23 PM
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Part of the reason for this forum is legal information about NFA items.
But once we cover our legal angles there remain the "Do it yourselfers".
Several of us on this forum are metal workers, gunsmiths, or other types of craftsman who may be interested in making guns and associated items themselves rather than just assembling purchased parts.
Other threads can cover the details of legality.
This thread is concerned strictly with crafting.
http://www.cncguns.com/downloads.html
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I wonder if a hard anodize finish would be worth pursuing on an all AL build like that?
Could do the exterior in Hard Black and the interior parts Hard Clear for better carbon build up identification.
Cant sleep, food for thought....
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I wonder if a hard anodize finish would be worth pursuing on an all AL build like that?
Could do the exterior in Hard Black and the interior parts Hard Clear for better carbon build up identification.
Cant sleep, food for thought....
I would say no, for 2 reasons.
1 anodizeing, has less thermal expantion then the under lieing metal. so there is a better chance of cracking. which will expose raw AL to o2.
2 most solvents will take it right off.
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I would say no, for 2 reasons.
1 anodizeing, has less thermal expantion then the under lieing metal. so there is a better chance of cracking. which will expose raw AL to o2.
2 most solvents will take it right off.
I know Acetone won't take off anodize, and I've seen applications were thermal expansion was an issue... How hot does a supressor get, 180* F?
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I know Acetone won't take off anodize, and I've seen applications were thermal expansion was an issue... How hot does a supressor get, 180* F?
We have some suppressor owners on hear, and I'm sure one of them probably has or has access to an inferred thermometer and could check the temp out for us.
While we wait think of the heat of the barrel and gas tube. The suppressor is subjected to the same gasses as these parts. It is lighter than the barrel and heavier than the gas tube. I suspect that under sustained fire that turns a gas tube cherry red and discolors the barrel the suppressor would not be far behind.
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Hot enough to fry bacon. yes, it is on YouTube...
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I don't know what material the gas tube is made from but I know the barrel is steel.
Aluminum dissipates heat a lot faster than steel so would cool faster between shots,
That is why when spot welding you need much lower temps for aluminum but much more energy to produce it.
How this would work out in practice I don't know beyond the fact that an aluminum part would be considerably cooler than a steel part of the same mass.
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Tom,
Not only does aluminum dissipate heat quicker, it also heats up quicker. However, none of this matters when the suppressor is made of steel. My gunsmith builds his out of steel, because he feels he can build tighter tolerances*, maintain precision*, and improve durability.
* Back to the whole heat transfer properties.
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I have to say that unless workability is an issue I to prefer steel over Aluminum.
However I just make parts, I don't design them.
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I have to say that unless workability is an issue I to prefer steel over Aluminum.
However I just make parts, I don't design them.
I just wish I had the tools and ability to work with metal. Used to have access to sheet metal tools when I worked in a small firm building all types of bold bins, tool boxes, and several other items. I also had a friend that owned a lathe, milling machine, and several presses. Today all I have is an old Lincoln welder - even sold the torch on the sale :'(
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I just wish I had the tools and ability to work with metal. Used to have access to sheet metal tools when I worked in a small firm building all types of bold bins, tool boxes, and several other items. I also had a friend that owned a lathe, milling machine, and several presses. Today all I have is an old Lincoln welder - even sold the torch on the sale :'(
I'm with you Mike, except I sold the welder too! ::)
Shop class was for the under-achievers in HS, so I never took any of the courses. Everything I learned is self-taught, which made running my ranches interesting to say the least. The kind of metal working involved here is something I would love to do, but do not have the resources to start at the moment. Someday maybe . . . . ;)
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We have some suppressor owners on hear, and I'm sure one of them probably has or has access to an inferred thermometer and could check the temp out for us.
While we wait think of the heat of the barrel and gas tube. The suppressor is subjected to the same gasses as these parts. It is lighter than the barrel and heavier than the gas tube. I suspect that under sustained fire that turns a gas tube cherry red and discolors the barrel the suppressor would not be far behind.
I know that Hard Ano is used in aluminum cookware so I think it would withstand "normal" rates of fire and maybe even sustained fire. I was leaning toward stainless for the reasons listed before, but weight is a factor as well. I don't want a 16 oz suppressor on a 24 oz. pistol or even a 5 pound rifle but I don't want to have to replace internal parts all the time either (although I will be experimenting with different angles and baffle placement).
I am planning on a K baffle, or an X baffle design, with a blast chamber for a 10/22 for my first build. I think I can keep in at 1" diameter by 6" long based on the suppressors I shot last week on my buddy's pistols. With a 16" .920" diam barrel this should allow iron sights to be used if need be.
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A gun shop in NH (Riley's ) is a class III dealer, they used to have a 10/22 with integral suppressor.
It looked just like a bull barrel. Diameter of 1 inch or less, however there was no way to tell by looking how long it was.
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I've seen variations of that Tom and that was one idea running through my head last night.
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When I was at T/C I often thought about the idea of machining one into the end of a .22 LR bull barrel.
But it was only a mental exercise, like I said, I make parts, I don't design them. ;D
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I know that Hard Ano is used in aluminum cookware so I think it would withstand "normal" rates of fire and maybe even sustained fire. I was leaning toward stainless for the reasons listed before, but weight is a factor as well. I don't want a 16 oz suppressor on a 24 oz. pistol or even a 5 pound rifle but I don't want to have to replace internal parts all the time either (although I will be experimenting with different angles and baffle placement).
I am planning on a K baffle, or an X baffle design, with a blast chamber for a 10/22 for my first build. I think I can keep in at 1" diameter by 6" long based on the suppressors I shot last week on my buddy's pistols. With a 16" .920" diam barrel this should allow iron sights to be used if need be.
Aluminum is largely like steel in that it depends on the alloy as to what it will do. The amounts of things like magnesium, silica, tin, and others determines the porousness, flexibility, and dissipation rate.
For reference, anodizing is not strictly a coating. Anodizing is a treatment using electricity to chemically introduce particles (such as copper, in an acid bath) from a metal anode into the metal surface of the aluminum to a pre-determined depth/thickness (based on time in) to achieve a particular color such as silver, gold, black. Durability of anodizing depends on quality, alloy, and treatment process. If done right, it is really durable.
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I've seen it hold up to some surprising abuse when done right.
I've also seen it flake off when done wrong.
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I've seen it hold up to some surprising abuse when done right.
I've also seen it flake off when done wrong.
Yep.
Alloy, surface prep, application....there are a lot of variables.
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Just talked to my buddy and there is about a four to six month wait on Form 1 processing ::)
As far as anodizing goes I've been making AL parts for over 15 years but I've only been working with the finished product for 5. I did get a chance to tour our Plating and Anodizing vendor last fall so I am famliar with the process. I think I'll give it a whirl.
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Just talked to my buddy and there is about a four to six month wait on Form 1 processing ::)
As far as anodizing goes I've been making AL parts for over 15 years but I've only been working with the finished product for 5. I did get a chance to tour our Plating and Anodizing vendor last fall so I am famliar with the process. I think I'll give it a whirl.
From what I have heard from others that is only for 1st time applicants.
The more times you go through the process the faster the turn around becomes.
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That may have been true a few years ago but his last Form 1, last spring IIRC, took 4 months his first one 3 years ago took 3 months and the fastest turn aroud he has had was 45 days. I think I heard this is a result from a Fed work slow-down to thumb their nose at use bitter clingers
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or they could just be flooded with lots and lots of Form 4's.
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A gun shop in NH (Riley's ) is a class III dealer, they used to have a 10/22 with integral suppressor.
It looked just like a bull barrel. Diameter of 1 inch or less, however there was no way to tell by looking how long it was.
I have one of the last AAC Cloak barrels for the 10-22's. They are integral and I hear AAC is coming out with an improved model. Word is they suspended making them to handle big military contracts...whether that is true or not I dunno but it sounds good. Anyway, my Cloak is a Butler Creek bull barrel (0.875") for a 10-22. They machine out a few inches and insert K baffles...from what my dealer told me...he also said there are 3 K baffles in the Cloak and 5 K baffles in the Pilot can. I guess the extra rifle barrel volume mostly overcomes the loss of a couple of baffles. Curtis Higgins of S & H Arms ( www.sandharms.com (http://www.sandharms.com) )makes a the quietest integral I know of for a 10-22...but it has a 1" tube and you need to modify the stock to accept it. Higgins's barrel is easy to clean (can't clean the Cloak) and get's it high performance (soundwise) by design...it will bleed down anything to subsonic.
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I have one of the last AAC Cloak barrels for the 10-22's. They are integral and I hear AAC is coming out with an improved model. Word is they suspended making them to handle big military contracts...whether that is true or not I dunno but it sounds good. Anyway, my Cloak is a Butler Creek bull barrel (0.875") for a 10-22. They machine out a few inches and insert K baffles...from what my dealer told me...he also said there are 3 K baffles in the Cloak and 5 K baffles in the Pilot can. I guess the extra rifle barrel volume mostly overcomes the loss of a couple of baffles. Curtis Higgins of S & H Arms ( www.sandharms.com (http://www.sandharms.com) )makes a the quietest integral I know of for a 10-22...but it has a 1" tube and you need to modify the stock to accept it. .
I think the 1" diameter is because of the tubing used to enclose everthing in one tube. Custom tubing would be expensive and 25mm is only .984"(?). Might work on a stock for a standard bull barrel, but metric sizes throuws some people off.
I may buy a Mark III from S & H, I've wanted one for a few years. But I think I'll make my own first, after I find a way to squirrel away $200 for the stamp ;)
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I think the 1" diameter is because of the tubing used to enclose everthing in one tube. Custom tubing would be expensive and 25mm is only .984"(?). Might work on a stock for a standard bull barrel, but metric sizes throuws some people off.
I may buy a Mark III from S & H, I've wanted one for a few years. But I think I'll make my own first, after I find a way to squirrel away $200 for the stamp ;)
You may be right on the 1" diameter. That was one of the things that pushed me away, but Curtis will customize your stock with his price and I'm having second thought based upon performance and use of the Cloak. The other thing was that I wanted to make sure I could go supersonic with the ammo if I wanted...he has a very efficient system that slows down a bullet because of how it traps the gases.
For the Ruger pistols....really sweet. I'd like one too.