The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Solid on April 02, 2008, 11:59:37 PM
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Today on April 2nd I went to the range with my Ruger LCP. I purchased it on March 31st and the gun was test fired on March 19th in Prescott, AZ.
50 rounds of Remington UMC FMJ
50 rounds of Fiocchi FMJ
No JHP tested since the only I had were in my carry gun
Impressions
-Gun shoots softer than the P3AT.
-Accuracy not really relevant, but was able to hit a body silhouette at 25 yards in rapid succession. The gun shines at 15 feet.
-Easier to shoot one handed than two handed due to small size.
-The large extractor works great
Problems
The gun does not like to feed the last round in the magazine. This happened twice on the second to last round. This was with both ammo brands. Shooting "limp" wristed or firmly didn't affect the frequency.
After cleaning and inspection I noticed some machining problems.
-The feed ramp isn't completely smooth and quite uneven.
-The machining on one side of the chamber is uneven. Looks like a dull bit was used.
-The rear of the slide where the hammer passes up and down is uneven on the left side.
-The center rib of the slide that re-cocks the single strike hammer is too wide. It looks like poor machining and it actually impacts the frame which is now dented from the 100 impacts :scrutiny:
-The hammer sits angled to the left rather than straight up and down. This has scrapped and "cut" into the channel on the slide for the hammer. Pieces of metal were found in the channel.
There are a few more problems like this and I am somewhat amazed. I called Ruger in Prescott, AZ today during office hours, but they didn't pick up so I left a message and return phone number.
I will keep this thread updated.
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Thanks, Thats a very informative post. If other LCP shooters give us as detailed reports and observations we can see if it is up to Rugers usually high standards. But having done similar "development " work on the T/C Omega I will point out that When the engineers are done telling everyone about their "perfect" design, the machine operators and set up people on the shop floor have to make it work. fixtures for castings have to be tweaked adjusted and proved, same with CNC programs, tooling choices have to be examined and proved out and Quality criteria have to be established.
On the Omega for about the first year, the "Sealed Breech" was machined with a slight taper toward one side, My lead man and I kept telling the inspector about this and he kept telling us" There's no specification so I'm not concerned", One day the CNC Supervisor, (A pompous little weasel I won't name here) came out all excited because the "Parts you made last night had a taper in them" I told him " The parts I've made for the last year have a taper in them , thank you for noticing." then I sent him to talk to my Lead man ;D They developed a Spec that they had to be flat to a certain dimension, but it takes that long for these types of issues to be addressed in new designs.
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I got off the phone with Ruger and they are shipping me a pre-paid mailer for the gun. They were very courteous and listened to all the flaws I noticed from machining/assembly. They also told me they recently had one other like mine from a magazine author and mine may have come from the same batch.
I must say +1 for Ruger customer service
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Solid,
Glad to hear that every thing is going well so far!
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I must say +1 for Ruger customer service
Yeah, but you shouldn't have to send your brand new gun back to them in the first place. It sure would be nice to have your new $300+ carry gun be free of problems from the get go.
I personally think it is more a problem of the micro auto loaders in general. There is a lot to be said for the reliability of the snubby revolver over these 7 shot auto loading pocket pistols. There is a great video over at the CCW Demystified section of DRTV videos with Walt Rauch lecturing us on the relevance of the J-Frame sized revolvers, and I whole heartedly agree with him.
I personally carry 10+1 rounds of 9mm with my Glock 26. It is easy to conceal and there is no doubt in my mind that it will go bang whenever I need it to. But if you are only gonna be carrying 7 rounds in as small of a package as you can..... then why not a revolver?
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I personally carry 10+1 rounds of 9mm with my Glock 26. It is easy to conceal and there is no doubt in my mind that it will go bang whenever I need it to.
ericire12,
How do you carry your Glock 26, front pocket...on the hip?
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I personally carry 10+1 rounds of 9mm with my Glock 26. It is easy to conceal and there is no doubt in my mind that it will go bang whenever I need it to. But if you are only gonna be carrying 7 rounds in as small of a package as you can..... then why not a revolver?
I've been shopping for a front pocket gun, and my local gun shop was kind enough to let me drop the guns in my front pants pocket and walk around the store. Although I can see your point...the J-frames were too bulky for my normal wardrobe, and my personal tastes. The LCP/P3AT-type autos were much more comfortable and unnoticable for all-day carry.
Just my $0.02 worth.
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Yeah, but you shouldn't have to send your brand new gun back to them in the first place. It sure would be nice to have your new $300+ carry gun be free of problems from the get go.
I personally think it is more a problem of the micro auto loaders in general. There is a lot to be said for the reliability of the snubby revolver over these 7 shot auto loading pocket pistols. There is a great video over at the CCW Demystified section of DRTV videos with Walt Rauch lecturing us on the relevance of the J-Frame sized revolvers, and I whole heartedly agree with him.
I personally carry 10+1 rounds of 9mm with my Glock 26. It is easy to conceal and there is no doubt in my mind that it will go bang whenever I need it to. But if you are only gonna be carrying 7 rounds in as small of a package as you can..... then why not a revolver?
I think the only real "quality" .380 pocket gun will end up being the Kahr 380 at it's $600ish price tag.
Right now I'm considering a G36/PM9/PM45 for large front pocket or IWB carry. I would also consider the S&W 325 snub nose, but the price tag is a bit steep for a college student.
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ericire12,
How do you carry your Glock 26, front pocket...on the hip?
IWB, strong side, in front of my hip
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I think the only real "quality" .380 pocket gun will end up being the Kahr 380 at it's $600ish price tag.
Right now I'm considering a G36/PM9/PM45 for large front pocket or IWB carry. I would also consider the S&W 325 snub nose, but the price tag is a bit steep for a college student.
Lots of P3ATs out there. Mine has run consistantly out of the box with any ammo including reloads. Bought another mag for it and no problems there either. Pick 'em up around here for $280.00.
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Lots of P3ATs out there. Mine has run consistantly out of the box with any ammo including reloads. Bought another mag for it and no problems there either. Pick 'em up around here for $280.00.
Yeah, I know people that love them, and I know just as many that hate them..... I think it all comes down to if you get a good one or not. If you get a good one, then they are a great gun - but if you get a bad one, they have a tendency to jam pretty often.
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The first generation is iffy. Every thing I have heard about the 2nd generation is positive.
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I never buy 1st gen anything... let them work out the bugs.
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I just got back from my first go round at the range. First off, the thing is a hot little pistol when firing. Maybe because I am used to shooting my bigger pistols, like my Sig P220 and BHP, I was not expecting the little thing to be such a Noisy Cricket (go see MIB #1).
Anyhow, shot well, only 50 rounds through it, shot on the way home from work so time was limited. Shot everything well, no FTF or FTE, all Magtech ammo, no sign of the wear that Solid noted, but then, only 50 rounds.
As for magazines, checked every local store, no LCP or Kel-Tec - not one. Kel-tec mags on line appear to be almost as much - on sale - as the Ruger. So it was shoot 7, reload, shoot 7, reload, etc.
One interesting note. Even with my small-ish hands, I found the LCP to kinda get swallowed up in them. I used a modified 2-handed grip, with my weak hand lower on the strong, and my thumb across my strong-side wrist to help control the Cricket. I ordered some mag extenders for the magazine, so I'll see if that helps me find a better grip.
Did fine single handed though, even rapid fire.
All that being said, though, very nice pistol, and should be interesting to carry.
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I just got back from my first go round at the range. First off, the thing is a hot little pistol when firing. Maybe because I am used to shooting my bigger pistols, like my Sig P220 and BHP, I was not expecting the little thing to be such a Noisy Cricket (go see MIB #1).
Anyhow, shot well, only 50 rounds through it, shot on the way home from work so time was limited. Shot everything well, no FTF or FTE, all Magtech ammo, no sign of the wear that Solid noted, but then, only 50 rounds.
As for magazines, checked every local store, no LCP or Kel-Tec - not one. Kel-tec mags on line appear to be almost as much - on sale - as the Ruger. So it was shoot 7, reload, shoot 7, reload, etc.
One interesting note. Even with my small-ish hands, I found the LCP to kinda get swallowed up in them. I used a modified 2-handed grip, with my weak hand lower on the strong, and my thumb across my strong-side wrist to help control the Cricket. I ordered some mag extenders for the magazine, so I'll see if that helps me find a better grip.
Did fine single handed though, even rapid fire.
All that being said, though, very nice pistol, and should be interesting to carry.
That's what I named my P3AT the first day! (http://www.mazeguy.net/animal/cricket.gif)
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One interesting note. Even with my small-ish hands, I found the LCP to kinda get swallowed up in them. I used a modified 2-handed grip, with my weak hand lower on the strong, and my thumb across my strong-side wrist to help control the Cricket. I ordered some mag extenders for the magazine, so I'll see if that helps me find a better grip.
Pathfinder,
I had the same experience with mine. One-and-a-half fingers on the handle makes controlling the recoil a little difficult. I found that the side of the trigger guard sort of bit into the side of my trigger finger.
I saw some mag extensions on ebay and was thinking about trying one out. Let us know how the mag extensions work, after you get them, mmkay.
Thanks
PS. First post, I like the editing controls up here.
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You guys should enter your test results in the product review section of the DRTV site and create a full product review of the LCP:
http://www.downrange.tv/reviews/
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Another one I carry consistently is the Sig P232 SL in .380. It eats anything, especially the personal protection rnds. Shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger and is deadly accurate at 30' or more if you can see that far and hold it on target. It's very light also. It has a one-in-the-pipe indicator and a decocker. Shoots 7 + 1 also. Kinda hard to find a new one around here but I picked up my like-new used one for $300. Wouldn't trade it now for anything.
J.C.
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You guys should enter your test results in the product review section of the DRTV site and create a full product review of the LCP:
http://www.downrange.tv/reviews/
I'll do that once I give Ruger a chance to fix this gun. Once it is "fixed" I'll post my final word.
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I'll do that once I give Ruger a chance to fix this gun. Once it is "fixed" I'll post my final word.
From your discription they will likely replace it with one made right.
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Pathfinder,
I had the same experience with mine. One-and-a-half fingers on the handle makes controlling the recoil a little difficult. I found that the side of the trigger guard sort of bit into the side of my trigger finger.
I saw some mag extensions on ebay and was thinking about trying one out. Let us know how the mag extensions work, after you get them, mmkay.
Thanks
PS. First post, I like the editing controls up here.
I got the mag extension tonight when I got home, small plastic doo-hickey from ebay (little fascists that they are). I put it on the LCP magazine, and it fit perfectly, took all of 30 seconds and most of that was finding something to push the pin in on the bottom of the magazine plate to release the bottom.
Haven't shot it with the extension, but it did seem to curl nicely under my finger, settled the pistol more into my hand, so it will probably help a little controlling the Noisy Cricket.
One note - the extension is made for the Kel-Tec, so when added to the LCP magazine, it will leave a gap of about 1/4 inch between the top of the extension and the bottom of the magwell.
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Gun left my hands on the 11th, and I talked to Ruger today. They said the technicians still had it, so it will be another week before I get it.
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Got the gun in today.
The recoil spring feels lighter, and the frame was machined where the peening was occurring. The barrel machine, slide machining, and hammer placement are still off.
I'll try and hit the range this weekend and see how she runs.
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I'm still having the last round in the magazine fail to feed. :'(
This time I used 100 rounds of Winchester FMJ.
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Have you tried a different magazine? .. I wonder if that might help.
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I think that may be the issue, but I hate to have to buy another mag just to make it work. Then be stuck with a useless one.
Monday I'll call Ruger and see what they think. If they say "sounds like a magazine issue", then I'll try to get them to send me one. The LCP isn't common around here and I doubt anyone will have it considering no one sells 1911 magazines in this town.
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I think that may be the issue, but I hate to have to buy another mag just to make it work. Then be stuck with a useless one.
Monday I'll call Ruger and see what they think. If they say "sounds like a magazine issue", then I'll try to get them to send me one. The LCP isn't common around here and I doubt anyone will have it considering no one sells 1911 magazines in this town.
Has someone else not said on one of these posts that the Kel-Tec mags work in the LCP? Or maybe its the other way around.
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Gun is going back to Ruger, again. I'll post updates when I get it back.
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Well gun came back from Ruger for the second time and hit the range.
After roughly 50 rounds the firing pin broke. This will be it's third trip to Ruger.
I have decided this gun is not fit for carry, defense, or anything for that matter. It is far too unreliable to trust to your life.
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Well gun came back from Ruger for the second time and hit the range.
After roughly 50 rounds the firing pin broke. This will be it's third trip to Ruger.
I have decided this gun is not fit for carry, defense, or anything for that matter. It is far too unreliable to trust to your life.
Sorry to hear that Solid, purchasing a firearm is a truly personal experience, and it's a shame when expectations are high, and results are not.
Hope you get it worked out with Ruger, trust is hard enough to earn from people, let alone something that may save your life.
Good Luck and keep us posted.
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Called them twice today (morning and afternoon) both times they shrugged me off and said, "We'll have a technician call you."
Tomorrow I'll ask for a mailer and a refund >:(
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Reminds of the lyrics to an old David Bowie song, “When they’re good they’re really good …when they’re bad they go to pieces”.
There have been enough strong if not rave reviews of the LCP to give Ruger ONE LAST chance to make it right. Ruger has a strong rep for customer service and for making guns that are damn near indestructible (provided it’s not a triple charge in a 41 mag).
I were to bet, I would think that this time they will get it right.
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Talked to them today and again they said someone would have to call me back. I then politely explained that they had told me that yesterday and then described the issue. The rep said she would give the info to her supervisor.
Hopefully I can get rid of my lemon. Either way the gun is going for sale. I'll get a JFrame, SP101, or PM9/MK9.
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Can't say I blame you. A carry gun that you doubt is one I doubt you should carry.
I am in the market for a more convenient gun to carry than my SIG P220. Not too interested in the Ruger or other small "bugs". Not a fan of the internal lock on the S&W J frames. Thought about the Ruger but it's a bit big for what it is suppose to be. Won't buy a Kahr even though they are very fine handguns because of their connection to Rev. Moon and the Unification Church. Trying to like the Glock 26 but it feels like a chalk eraser in my hand. Seems like I always end back up with a SIG P239 at the top of the list.
May flip a coin between the Glock 26 and the SIG P239.
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I'm sorry to hear about your problems. You might want to try the Keltec P3AT. I have one going on over a year
and it has been solid and reliable. All the teething problems have apparently been worked out. I can understand
if you're turned off to the concept of the small pocket .380, and if so then you should go with an airweight revolver
if you don't feel comfortable with one. Hope it all works out.
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I'm sorry to hear about your problems. You might want to try the Keltec P3AT. I have one going on over a year
and it has been solid and reliable. All the teething problems have apparently been worked out. I can understand
if you're turned off to the concept of the small pocket .380, and if so then you should go with an airweight revolver
if you don't feel comfortable with one. Hope it all works out.
Been there done that. The P3AT had jams and the magazine would shoot out the bottom after recoil sometimes.
I think I'm going to move to 'bulletproof' guns.
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Think I'll stay away from the LCP for a while myself. I wish Sig would move a little faster getting the 250 sub small grip out. I handled the grip only and it feels good but you never know.
Richard
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Ron J; I'm late to this thread, but I'm curious - what flavor of p220 is yours? I'm asking because I am constantly carrying one of two guns - either my P3AT (which I've had zero problems with, thank God) or my P220 Compact. It's not a pocket gun, but then again - it's not a pocket gun, y'know? :)
If yours is a full-size 220, I'd take a good look at the compact. It's a bit smaller, but a lot more comfortable to carry, and easier to conceal. For me, anyway... YMMV.
Good luck with Ruger.
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. It's not a pocket gun, but then again - it's not a pocket gun, y'know?
I like that!
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Ron J; I'm late to this thread, but I'm curious - what flavor of p220 is yours? I'm asking because I am constantly carrying one of two guns - either my P3AT (which I've had zero problems with, thank God) or my P220 Compact. It's not a pocket gun, but then again - it's not a pocket gun, y'know? :)
If yours is a full-size 220, I'd take a good look at the compact. It's a bit smaller, but a lot more comfortable to carry, and easier to conceal. For me, anyway... YMMV.
Good luck with Ruger.
I have heard that the new Kel-Tec's seem to have the bugs worked out. First consideration for a carry gun is reliability. Like Solid said, if he can't have faith in his Ruger he can't carry it. While I am sure that Ruger will have a high percentage of LCP guns that exceed expectations, it just takes one time to fail to lose faith. Solid has given the LCP a couple of shots and that's more that fair. With that being said, the folks at Ruger are smart enough to understand that when they lose a customer, it costs them 7x in working marketing dollars to get that customer back. They don't want to lose customers so I would bet on them making it right.
I have two full size P220's (one is a mint condition Browning BDA that I bought new in 1978). Because I have been shooting this "platform" for 30 years, it's a very natural gun to me. Have yet to hold a P220 Compact but I did find a gun store that has some brand new P245's which is actually a little smaller than the P220 Compact (no beavertail). Very tempting. Adding to the confusion, a SIG P229 is slightly shorter in length and slightly taller in height to a P220 Compact or P245 BUT has twice the mag capacity (albeit a 9mm vs. 45ACP). Tough decision!
If it wasn't for the internal lock on the S&W revolvers, I would have a S&W MP 340 revolver on my hip or pocket today. Read TOO many posts at the S&W Forum to make that a reliable carry. Given the amount of favorable press the P239 has received over the years, I am leaning towards that flavor of SIG.
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After three days of calling I talked to Jim in the service dept. and am being sent a mailer. He said the gun really shouldn't have this many problems. He also wrote down which ammunition brands/types I was using when it broke.
I'm debating on whether to keep or sell once the gun is "fixed". It seems this one must be some strange lemon.
At the local gun store the owner had a customer with failure to go into battery issues like I had originally. He showed me the email Ruger gave the customer and it was a list of ammunition Ruger says not to use. None of the ammo I had been using was on the list though.
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After three days of calling I talked to Jim in the service dept. and am being sent a mailer. He said the gun really shouldn't have this many problems. He also wrote down which ammunition brands/types I was using when it broke.
I'm debating on whether to keep or sell once the gun is "fixed". It seems this one must be some strange lemon.
At the local gun store the owner had a customer with failure to go into battery issues like I had originally. He showed me the email Ruger gave the customer and it was a list of ammunition Ruger says not to use. None of the ammo I had been using was on the list though.
I don't suppose you remember which brands were on the "naughty" list, do you?
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After three days of calling I talked to Jim in the service dept. and am being sent a mailer. He said the gun really shouldn't have this many problems. He also wrote down which ammunition brands/types I was using when it broke.
I'm debating on whether to keep or sell once the gun is "fixed". It seems this one must be some strange lemon.
At the local gun store the owner had a customer with failure to go into battery issues like I had originally. He showed me the email Ruger gave the customer and it was a list of ammunition Ruger says not to use. None of the ammo I had been using was on the list though.
I'll give you $50 for it.
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There is some Kel-Tec love being spread around some other threads. ;D As a P3AT owner for two months, I have shot CCI, Winchester, Speer, Cor-Bon, Magtech, with no issues. Up around 250 rounds at this point, did consider the LCP very hard.
As some have said, 1 (gun) is not enough, I don't work for Kel-Tec, but it seems between the SR9, and the LCP, the margin of whether one gets a "good one" or not has not gotten consistent enough. Surprising from Ruger, as I own Ruger's as well. Maybe trade it for a P3AT. Even the P3 has a second generation, worked out the bugs type of thing,... so maybe when the LCP's get there it will be totally awesome.
Hope they get it back to you soon, and I sincerely hope you can run ammo through it and have no more issues.
No gun should have a "list" of ammo NOT to use. Maybe 1 or 2 brands are more finicky than others (Wolf for me), but not a "List".
Good Luck and Take Care
Tom W
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twyacht
No gun should have a "list" of ammo NOT to use. Maybe 1 or 2 brands are more finicky than others
I have to agree. With all the technology available today. This shouldn't be part of the problem.
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I don't suppose you remember which brands were on the "naughty" list, do you?
UMC was on it, but I cannot recall the others.
There were at least 5 types of ammo on the list. Some FMJ and some JHP
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UMC was on it, but I cannot recall the others.
There were at least 5 types of ammo on the list. Some FMJ and some JHP
Why does UMC always seem to appear on problematic ammunition lists?
After solving the little issue my LCP had it will feed, shoot and extract anything I run through it.
Heres what I have used so far:
- Powr Ball
- Win standard
- WinClean
- Blazer w/aluminum case
- Magtech
With all my guns I never let price dictate what I shoot even when plinking. Some will say the Blazers aren't the best whch they aren't but I have not had one problem and have shot well over 1000 of them.
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Both my Glocks will devour UMC ammo.
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Both my Glocks will devour UMC ammo.
Guns are kind of like people that way. Growing up, my Sister HATED vegetables, while I would eat whatever was put in front of me, (except liver, to much good meat on an animal to spend time eating the gut pile ;D )
PS actually I ate the liver, I just didn't like it and have not eaten it since ;D
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Solid I used to work for colts in west hartford ct . I hear what your saying , but I don't think it was the operator, I think it was the superviser of the operator. I would bring some piece's to my super and he say let them go thu. That would piss me off . 9 time out 10 I'd change the tool anyway with out him knowing.
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Solid I used to work for colts in west hartford ct . I hear what your saying , but I don't think it was the operator, I think it was the superviser of the operator. I would bring some piece's to my super and he say let them go thu. That would piss me off . 9 time out 10 I'd change the tool anyway with out him knowing.
Same sort of thing at Thompson Center.
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I love my LCP - no problems at all with several hundred rounds thru it. There - now I can get double entries into the giveaways. Michael Bane - I LOVE your reporting style. Your subtle "tongue-in cheek" comments showed a great knowledge background in many subjescts. Keep up the good work!!
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No problems with mine either. Using Gold Dots.