The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: AE3007H1 on January 11, 2012, 01:07:14 AM
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Do any of you know if there is any statistical data on the failures of the firing pin saftey device on striker fired guns like the Glock and M&P's? meaning that the gun fired entirely on its' own with out being stimulated from any thing. Of coarse this would mean that the firing pin saftey plunger has failed and allowed the firing pin to fire an already chambered round.
I ask because of my 1 year old daughter. She is now running around and in to EVERYTHING! haha but the other day she walked up on my left side "I am left handed and carry as such" and held on to my left leg. I did not know that my wife had opened the door or I would have already have canted that side away from her. She walked up and when I looked down to see what was touching me I see MY GUN POINTED AT MY DAUGHTER'S HEAD! I qucikly turned to negate this problem. I am always aware of what is down range from my gun, even while quietly tucked into its holster. It was on my hip in a SERPA II when this happened.
This got me thinking about conditions that could cause the gun to fire under these circumstances. The trigger is completley enclosed so the trigger being depressed should not be a problem. After some thought I began to think about what would the possibility of the gun firing on its own be? I am well versed in gunsmithing so I know what would have to happen mechanically, I just am curious if it ever HAS happened and if so how often, what were the mitigating factors, etc....??
Ther first thing that I have done to keep this from happening again is had a talk with my wife about what had happened. We decided that I will continue to wear my gun in the house but from now on we are to verbally communicate better between each other so the one that is not with my daughter at the time will know if she is headed towards us. (really we talked about it and are aware of what to do to make sure that we both know where my daughter is with this event in mind)
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I've never heard of one going off by itself but I can see where a catastophic parts failure could lead to it.
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Yes, it would just take a spring failure and a bump in the right/wrong direction.
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I would suggest a letter to Glock, or the manufacturer of choice. They will be honest, because if they tell you it isn't possible and it happens they are on the legal hook. The response I would expect you to get is that if your gun is in factory condition, no trigger job or other smithing, and you are properly maintaining it you are safe.
My suggestion is that you take or send your gun to a factory repair center, and express your concerns. They will give it a thorough going over and do maintenance repairs and updates. Makes me feel better about safeties!
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It's practically a double action cycle...regardless of striker fired or not.....the firing pin is disengaged, there is not tension on the firing pin, the trigger has to be "cycled" to retract the firing pin...
M&P's, (and Glock), and others, do not utilize a safety plunger under any tension, Glock calls it their "safe action" trigger....That's why a loaded chamber, is the preferred method of carry...
The internals, as the trigger is pulled, retracts the firing mechanism "loading" the spring and striking the primer at the last part of the trigger cycle.
Your safety concerns are well warranted, as SAFETY is the #1 Rule for carry. I don't know the specific stats, however, "spontaneous" discharges have not come up in my digging.
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M58, thank you. I am not worried about my particular weapon, just thinking of statistics.
twyacht: The firing pin does have load on it once cocked. If you have a round in the chamber and your slide is locked into battery there IS tension on the firing pin. You are correct in that once the trigger is rotated back the sear does pivot to bring the firing pin back a few thousands more to it's "optimal" release point to ensure a successful primer strike. There are some primers like say CCI that may be hard enough that a strike from this position (cocked but not depressed by the sear and trigger actuation) would not fire the round. But most primers on factory ammo are soft enough that they would in fact fire from this type of strike.
Now with all of that said I could be mistaken in my above stated theories. I have derived this information by the observation of the distance that the firing pin moves from the sear's movement during a trigger press in Glock and M&P pistols. (it is only a few thou. at best)
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Although not practiced at anywhere else but a range, field strip a loaded M&P, (as I have), and check the tension on the firing pin.
There is none.
One can field strip a M&P and take the loaded slide off the frame, the trigger disconnect is not part of the firing mechanism unless the trigger is pulled.
I think the trigger disconnect may differ between brands, but I can hammer nails with my M&P without a discharge....
Remember, S&W, and Glock, have beat these pistols into the ground to cover the concern of liability lawyers....
The booger hook off bang switch protocol, is still the best regardless...
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Hopefully someone else can off some opinions as well so you and I don't seem as if we are arguing. haha I do have a M&P as well as a Glock. What I believe you are forgetting is that when you rack the slide thus cambering a round, when the slide goes forward into battery the sear catches the firing pin lug and pre-loads it as everything locks into battery. Like I said, the sear break only moves the pin a minute amount further towards the rear. If you have one of the orange "armor's plates" that will fit into the rear of the slide of a Glock you can see what I am talking about.
For the sake of not continuing a tennis match I will let this be my last contribution to this discussion. Maybe a few others can chime in with facts/opinion. I believe what I am saying to be fact but I am never above being wrong. It has been a pleasure.
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For the volley, I think we are on the same page, the internal difference is mechanics.
In the new double-action striker-fired pistols, such as a Glock, when the slide is racked the striker is latched back far enough to be clear of the breech face when feeding a round, but not far enough to fire the pistol if released. When you pull the trigger the striker is pulled back farther, then released. Most striker fired pistols could be described as modified double action or a cross between single and double action. Depending on the manufacturer and model, there is usually some amount of precock built into the design to reduce the amount of trigger effort required to complete the cocking action before releasing the striker. In other words the action of the side may leave the striker 20-95% cocked.
While you are technically correct you're missing my point. In general, the more precock built into the design the less work must be done to complete the cocking action and release the striker. Depending on the leverage used in the design that work can either be pull weight or travel, or more often a happy combination of weight and travel. The end result is that it's quite possible to build a reliable striker fired pistol with a buttery smooth 3-1/2lb trigger with a crisp break. You just won't find many like that right out of the box because of liability issues.
Never cease to contribute AE300, and there is nothing wrong with a friendly "tennis match", here at DRTV,...You are correct. I never fail to admit when I learn something new...
Stay safe,
tw
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Isn't Ping a Glock armorer ?
Some one like that , or perhaps if you could find an online Armorers manual for either the Glock or M&P would solve the debate over what point the trigger mechanism engages the firing mechanism.
That seems to be the only point you differ on.
But to the OP I have to say I have never heard of either pistol going bang with out a finger contacting the trigger.
Except this:
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Yes,
I think we are on the same page. I reload and like I was saying, some primers are soft and will light easily, some are the opposite. With that being said, the same goes for the primers of different factory ammunition. So it might be safe to say that if you are using soft primers, LOOK OUT! haha and if you have hard to normal primers???
Now the question is: with normal run of the mill factory ammo, does the factory (unaltered) firing pin spring on your striker fired handguns have enough power to igniite the primer/ammo without being further compressed by depressing the trigger.
On the M&P one could do a test to find out by removing the rear sight and putting a dowel in in place of the plunger. Secure the gun into a shooting vice. And attach a string, or some way to quickly remove the dowel from the top of the slide to see if it will fire... The Glocks would not give you this option. Maybe I will try next time I get to the range..... Any other takers?? haha
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Glock pistols also have a Firing Pin Safety that is spring loaded and puts a block in the path of the firing pin that is removed when the trigger is pulled.
A firing spring or sear failure will not allow the pistol to fire.
The Firing Pin Safety Spring would have to fail and it is not a stressed part. It is possible that a drop at the right angle might cause the block to be moved out of the way due to inertia, but then a sear failure or release due to the same shock would have to happen and then the partially tensioned firing spring would have to be strong enough to ignite the primer.
I guess it is possible that the drop might be of sufficient force and the correct angle to cause the safety, sear and firing pin to all bounce because of inertia in just the right order and time to cause a discharge, but I don't think that is very likely and if the gun is holstered and your daughter is hugging your leg during an impact capable of that force, getting shot is going to be the least of her risks.
But I do understand your concern. Letting any firearm point at anyone you do not intend to shoot should be avoided when possible. But that is only possible (and really not completely) when you have it in your hand. If you sit down with a front pocket holster, someone walking in front of you will likely be covered, but the chance of discharge at that moment with a modern firearm, at a Glock, is very small.
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I understand your concern, have the same one myself. It is YOUR job to be aware of your situation. I know 2 YO's are sneaky little ninjas, but consider it training. Your own little Cato.
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Solus, yes I do agree. And the probability of this happening is so minute.... But it does warent discussion. Thank you
r_w, Yes my little ninja is 1yr today and WIDE OPEN. You are correct it is our responsibility to be aware. I was not on that one occasion and it is what has spurred this thread. As I stated, my wife and I have had a discussion about this and have put measures into place to help us keep this situation from happening again. It just goes to show that there are dangers and dangerous situations everywhere no matter how safe you try to be or think you are YOU CAN ALWAYS BE SAFER and improve on your safety program.
Thank you all
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Sorry guys, been away on another forum. Just saw this.
AE3007H1, the firing pin for Glocks do not touch the primer until the trigger is pulled. There are three safeties being the trigger safety, firing pin safety and drop safety.
"The spring loaded firing pin safety projects into the firing pin channel and mechanically blocks the firing pin from moving forward." The trigger must be pulled in order for the Glock to fire.
As for statistics of striker fired guns such as Glock or the M&P going off for no reason other than operator error? Could not tell you where to search. Every "oops" is generally caused by not following any of the three safety rules of: Keeping your finger off the trigger, keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction or keeping the gun unloaded until ready to shoot. The first rule is the one violated that usually produces a negligent discharge.
Hope this helps.
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I agree that Glocks have a pretty good safety system.
And, for sure, a Glock laying flat on a table and undisturbed has as much chance of discharging as any revolver or hammer fired semi in the same circumstances.....virtually zero, if not zero. Cooking off the rounds with microwaves would count as being disturbed.
But, as safe as that would be, if my daughter stood on her tiptoes and looked over the edge of the table into the barrel of that gun, even if it was well out of her reach, I'd be strongly uncomfortable with that situation.
I think that is what AE is getting at.
But the chances are so close to zero as not to matter.
The DEA had what was called the Frisbee Test, where a cocked Glock (I don't think it was loaded, but they may have done that in a safe environment) was tossed like a frisbee into a wall or to the floor to see if there were any failures. (15 foot toss with 4 foot drop)
The Glock did fail. The slide was jarred from the frame but the striker remained cocked, or half-cocked to be more precise. The result of the test was modifications to the partial frame rails embedded in the Glock frame, making the bigger and stronger (took two tries at it but any Gen 1 Glocks can be upgraded for free), but nothing was needed as far as the striker, it was solid.
If the Glock can repeatedly withstand that kind of impact and abuse, I can't imagine any type of normal disturbance causing a spontaneous discharge.
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Ping, thankyou, i am very familiar with the workings of Glock and other striker fired guns. i was specifically speaking about the possible failures of these safety mechanisms. skim the beginnings of the thread a little more so you can see what has been said. it sound like you might have some more to add once you are up to speed. thank you again.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
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AE, call Glock and ask if they have any statistics. 770-432-1202. I personally have not heard of any for Glock.
While teaching firearms safety, we teach that mechanical safeties can fail. The best safety utilized is the one between your ears. Then follow the three safety rules. I have a three year old running around the house so I keep track of every firearm and ensure all are safe or locked up.
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Well I guess the statement "The best safety utilized is the one between your ears" is evident by me asking and "thinking" about this possible problem! haha Thank you for your input and I will call Glock on Monday. I will also call Paul at S&W. He has been really good to me in the past and I am a M&P fan first. I will report back here on this thread once I have compiled some data from the manufacturers. I am finishing my RSO and Firearms safety / concealed carry instructor certifications next month. This will all be very good information for my classes. And anyone else's that may use it. Again, thank you.
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I understand your concern. I go by the rule of not allowing the muzzle to aim at anything I do not intend to shoot. Unfortunately, in the real world, there are moments where someone may be in line with the muzzle. When I am upstairs and others are downstairs is an example.
I have 6 kids at home ranging from 10 months to 14 years old. Realistically, I think the greatest danger would be a child getting one of my guns. Most of my efforts are in preventing that from happening.
You should consider your child to young and immobile to get and manipulate your gun. Kids grow in leaps and bounds and many can climb before they walk. When one of my sons was 3, he climbed to the top shelf of our pantry by splaying his feet against the walls and ratcheting himself to the top. As a baby, he would climb out of his crib, retrieve one of the other babies from another crib and climb down to the floor with her to play. We ended out getting a crib tent to contain him at night. Fortunately, he liked it. He also could never be contained with gates since he either climbed over or would shake them until they broke.
When I navigate my house with kids on various places on the floor, I ensure I never cover the kids with the muzzle. Also, when I place a gun down or put it in the safe, I make sure it faces a safe direction.
Anyway, I also assume a gun can go off at any time and treat it accordingly. However, I do my best to carry safely by using a quality holster that is rigid and will not drop the gun if I sit down or move about. I only carry drop safe guns and i do not drink or do drugs. Though it is unlikely the gun or ammo will ever fail, the odds are above zero.