The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: santahog on January 25, 2012, 10:07:56 PM
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Well, this should be no big deal, right?
Just practicing to take,... Taiwan, Tokyo, Dehli I guess? No LA style cities in the Arab world. Not practicing for military actions on US soil. Never do that..
Hmm..
http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/421-national-security/9606-lapd-in-joint-military-training-exercises-in-downtown-la
Same article repeated on local CBS site here..
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/01/24/lapd-joint-military-drills-in-downtown-la-wont-disrupt-publics-daily-routines/
Long article on Soros here.. Note the 16th or 17th paragraph down.. Just pointing out what the puppet master is saying. That's all..
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/9602-focus-george-soros-on-the-coming-us-class-war
Folks, just because they're not talking about it.....
With that NDAA business, it's "legal" now..
(I wouldn't mind having that Grenade Launcher the guy in black is carrying in the LA article. I always liked revolvers!)
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Have you read the NDAA 2012 ?
JNevis and I have both posted the exact wording several times.
As for "no LA style cities in the Arab world" ?
You don't know what you are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain#Economy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshawar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabul
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogadishu
Even Mogadishu has tall buildings and 2 million people, that isn't an "LA style city ?
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I think it may have been the feds flexing their collective muscle after getting their panties all knotted up by Operation Fast and Furious. Kind of a, "look what we can do if we wanted to...", "...we are MEN-DAMMIT! Men with fully automatic guns, grenade launchers and helicopters!"
What they should be saying is- "...80 million gun owners don't stand a chance against...err...what?!? 80 MILLION!???? Oh SH!T! Retreat... Run away..."
Remember Tyranny will show up at your door in uniform.
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Having been to Dubai, Jebel Ali, and Manama, over Riyahd, Basra, and Kuwait City they are VERY similar to LA, San Diego, and other cities in arrangement, structures, and population.
and the NDAA DOESN'T make crap legal against a US citizen or legal alien.
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Quit yelling at me or I'll call you bad names...
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It's disturbing to watch so many people have bags pulled over their heads, and all they do about it is to deny it's happening and argue about the number of threads in the cloth.
Federal law is large and complex, like a puzzle. And, like a puzzle, a piece here affects the placement of pieces elsewhere. Just because NDAA specifically excludes US citizens, as it appears to, does not mean that another law already on the books, like the so-called Patriot Act or any of the other thousands of laws, or a new law, cannot make it apply to anyone.
The groundwork is being laid, our government is clearly going to war with its own people. Maybe not in a "gun battles in the street" sense, but in the "the .gov runs things and we all better just STFU and live with it" sense - and the US Constitution be damned, according to them. It is happening piecemeal, but it is happening.
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It's disturbing to watch so many people have bags pulled over their heads, and all they do about it is to deny it's happening and argue about the number of threads in the cloth.
Federal law is large and complex, like a puzzle. And, like a puzzle, a piece here affects the placement of pieces elsewhere. Just because NDAA specifically excludes US citizens, as it appears to, does not mean that another law already on the books, like the so-called Patriot Act or any of the other thousands of laws, or a new law, cannot make it apply to anyone.
The groundwork is being laid, our government is clearly going to war with its own people. Maybe not in a "gun battles in the street" sense, but in the "the .gov runs things and we all better just STFU and live with it" sense - and the US Constitution be damned, according to them. It is happening piecemeal, but it is happening.
That is a very cogent and eloquent statement. Even if one buys into the silly idea that NDAA cannot and will not be used against US Citizens, you make an excellent point.
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Having been to Dubai, Jebel Ali, and Manama, over Riyahd, Basra, and Kuwait City they are VERY similar to LA, San Diego, and other cities in arrangement, structures, and population.
and the NDAA DOESN'T make crap legal against a US citizen or legal alien.
First, I honestly don't see the occupation of any of these cities as a real possibility, given the attitude of the current administration especially. Beyond that, if we've learned anything over the last 10 years, it's that "occupation of a Muslim city/country without a goal beyond giving islamists somebody to shoot at doesn't accomplish anything. Case in point, the poppy fields are still in bloom in Afganistan and no ones "heart and mind" has been fundamentally changed in Iraq. In Iraq, beyond severely curtailing Husseins ability to pay 10K to each family of a terrorist that blows up in Tel Aviv, all we've accomplished in a geopolitical sense is create a vacuum for Iran to fill there, as predicted before hand..
Maybe Yemen. Maaaybeee Iran, though my understanding of (Bible) prophecy would argue against an effective effort there.
I don't think DoD has any real expectation of orders coming down for that, and I KNOW that the current administration isn't inclined to begin such an endeavor.. I'll bet "Their people have spoken to your people" and you know everything I don't have the capacity to understand...
Second, and of more immediate import to me, I may have an understanding of Chain of Command as experienced as the next guy..
When a joint directive comes from the WH, accompanied by a note pointing to governing authority, to Justice and DoD to collect the guns, for the sake of public safety, I'm sure that the basis for the WH signing statement concerning the NDAAs authority to do anything it bloody well pleases, to whomever it's told to do it to, will have no bearing on on the understanding of the chain of command regarding it's authority to carry out what you so clearly point out as what would be unlawful orders..
Don't believe me? Try this.. Go get yourself pulled over and act like you have something to hide in the car, then tell the Cop that they have no right, per the 4th Ammendment, to search your person or papers without a warrant, regardless of what the SCOTUS says, because they're wrong... Let me know how well the Bill of Rights, or your superior understanding of it protects you. I'll be waiting for that report..
I remember how effective the will of the people was in putting a halt to what was painted as illegal wars. Those never happened, did they.. Why, because some guy with a copy of the Constitution stood on the steps of the WH told them so, and that was that. You remember that one on CNN? No? Soldiers and families lived in peace because of that day.. But it didn't happen that way, did it? (Regardless of your opinion of Iraq.) I'm telling you that the controling authority, the WH, seems to have a different take on what the thing allows, and your opinion or mine won't matter when it shows up at a traffic stop or the front door.
Nobody on site asked a supervisor if what they were doing was legal up in Ruby Ridge or out in Waco, did they? I bet somebody did.. I further bet that they were told the same thing that every other guy who asks that question was told; "Carry out the orders and ask questions afterwards or your career is over. What's it gonna be?".
Nobody here mentioned the possibility that a mortgage was at least as important as an unlawful order. No.
What I'm trying to tell you, and I don't give a fuc*all whether you like it or not, is that when the order is given, not you, not a Colonel looking for his first star, not 10 Senators and 35 Congressmen, not a soldier who never gave a thought to what the Constitution ever said because it never came up in High School, not me, not Ron Paul, not a Company Commander who knows better, not a Sec. of Defense, not an honest man who meets them in the yard and says no, nobody but the God you hate will be able to stop it, once the order is given, untill is is way way way too late for people like you or me, unless, in paying your mortgage, you volunteer to play low level spy on the rest of us, and that will only delay it for a very short time.
You can yell "They can't do that all you want, but it ain't gonna change a thing wieh the time comes..
And you know it...
Now get up out my damn face..
I took a week off from politics, forums, all of this stuff last week. I ended up in one conversation with a medically retired employee of DOJ-BOP, who I went to High School, (Military School) with, who related his reasoning for never being a part of any forum like this or member of any 2A or patriot organization. He told me that Oath Keepers was on a watch list, one step down in priority from the Terrorist Watch List. he will deny saying it if confronted.. Anybody here know a member of Oath Keepers? Communicate with them at all? I do.. Lots of them.. Birch Society is the same way.. Anybody know any of them? I do.. Talk to them weekly..
I'm glad somebody managed to get you to see that it isn't one thing, but one that leads to the other, as long as you get that that's how it works.. It's the latest (public) piece in the puzzle. Think, will you?! It's demonstrated over and over in history that you can take the whole the whole, piece at a time and do it without enough resistance to stop it. The end of the process, however, will create a miniature verson of the problem that taking it bit at a time was designed to eliminate. Taking that last piece is gonna hurt..
How much of what we discuss here on a daily basis would have been even imaginable back in the 50s? the 70s? the 90s? today...
Think about how we got here and stop shooting the damn messenger... Will you, please?..
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From Santa's post
"First, I honestly don't see the occupation of any of these cities as a real possibility, given the attitude of the current administration especially
"Occupation" has nothing to do with it Operations like the one the day before yesterday in Mogadishu (Population 2 MILLION )
"it isn't one thing, but one that leads to the other,"
That's useless reasoning, it can be applied to any law. Many use the basic commandment "Thou shalt not kill" to justify gun laws and oppose the death penalty for mass murderers.
There has to be a happy medium.
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From Santa's post
"First, I honestly don't see the occupation of any of these cities as a real possibility, given the attitude of the current administration especially
"Occupation" has nothing to do with it Operations like the one the day before yesterday in Mogadishu (Population 2 MILLION )
"it isn't one thing, but one that leads to the other,"
That's useless reasoning, it can be applied to any law. Many use the basic commandment "Thou shalt not kill" to justify gun laws and oppose the death penalty for mass murderers.
There has to be a happy medium.
In dismissing it, you struck the nail on the head, Tom. It is why our legal system has grown so exponentially over the past 50 years, such that no one person will ever understand it.
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On the other hand, by making an exaggerated issue out of you get chaos.
The OP was concerned with a TRAINING operation and amounts to inaccurate , paranoid crap.
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Two non-argumentative things, please..
1. Tom, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a misinterpretation of the commandment. It means "Thou Shalt Do No Murder".
2. Path, I honestly don't know what you're trying to get me to understand in your last post.
Joe
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Regardless, of NDAA,....
Just some food for thought,....connect the dots...
As I mentioned before, you will start to see the Government accelerate their movements in order to further consolidate power and control over the populace, militarization of LE is just a start.
DHS Seeks Industry Feedback on Draft Proposal for Wide Scale Surveillance in U.S.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dhs-looks-for-feedback-on-potentially-massive-surveillance-project-on-u-s-soil/
They will use fear and intimidation to show the sheeple they are out-gunned and out-maneuvered,
Federal “Training” Assault on Social Security Office Startles FL Locals
http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield
You will see the continued prepping of Civilian Law Enforcement with advanced Military Grade weaponry
Local Cops Ready for War With Homeland Security-Funded Military Weapons
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html
Police employ Predator drone spy planes on home front
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211
Why the militarization of local police needs to stop
http://www.tgdaily.com/opinion/60457-why-the-militarization-of-local-police-needs-to-stop
And once communications are locked down and dissent controlled,
Government Total Recall On Past Communications
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/008430.html
Government’s monitoring of social media raises privacy concerns
http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/13/governments-monitoring-of-social-media-raises-privacy-concerns/
Internet Kill Switch – Never Let a Crisis Go to Waste: Egypt Today, USA Tomorrow
http://biggovernment.com/taylorking/2011/01/30/internet-kill-switch-never-let-a-crisis-go-to-waste-egypt-today-usa-tomorrow/
You will see more instances of “Joint” operations throughout the U.S., these operations will not be asked for or run by the State and Local jurisdictions, they will be run by the Military,
U.S. Military/Civilian Law Enforcement Operations
http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/NEWS.html?article=9653697
All we need is a good crisis to bring in the Military… the manpower and structure have already been laid,
U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM)
http://www.northcom.mil/about/index.html
I know what you are saying, Hey we have the Posse Comitatus Act, they can’t do that! Well, that “old” relic of an Act has been severely watered down over the years.
The Myth of Posse Comitatus
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/trebilcock.htm
And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Constitutional Expert: “President Obama … Says That He Can Kill You On His Own Discretion” Without Charge or Trial
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/constitutional-expert-%E2%80%9Cpresident-obama-%E2%80%A6-says-he-can-kill-you-his-own-discretion-without
Stand while you still have the means to effect change.
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Regardless, of NDAA,....
Just some food for thought,....connect the dots...
As I mentioned before, you will start to see the Government accelerate their movements in order to further consolidate power and control over the populace, militarization of LE is just a start.
DHS Seeks Industry Feedback on Draft Proposal for Wide Scale Surveillance in U.S.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dhs-looks-for-feedback-on-potentially-massive-surveillance-project-on-u-s-soil/
They will use fear and intimidation to show the sheeple they are out-gunned and out-maneuvered,
Federal “Training” Assault on Social Security Office Startles FL Locals
http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield
You will see the continued prepping of Civilian Law Enforcement with advanced Military Grade weaponry
Local Cops Ready for War With Homeland Security-Funded Military Weapons
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html
Police employ Predator drone spy planes on home front
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211
Why the militarization of local police needs to stop
http://www.tgdaily.com/opinion/60457-why-the-militarization-of-local-police-needs-to-stop
And once communications are locked down and dissent controlled,
Government Total Recall On Past Communications
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/008430.html
Government’s monitoring of social media raises privacy concerns
http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/13/governments-monitoring-of-social-media-raises-privacy-concerns/
Internet Kill Switch – Never Let a Crisis Go to Waste: Egypt Today, USA Tomorrow
http://biggovernment.com/taylorking/2011/01/30/internet-kill-switch-never-let-a-crisis-go-to-waste-egypt-today-usa-tomorrow/
You will see more instances of “Joint” operations throughout the U.S., these operations will not be asked for or run by the State and Local jurisdictions, they will be run by the Military,
U.S. Military/Civilian Law Enforcement Operations
http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/NEWS.html?article=9653697
All we need is a good crisis to bring in the Military… the manpower and structure have already been laid,
U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM)
http://www.northcom.mil/about/index.html
I know what you are saying, Hey we have the Posse Comitatus Act, they can’t do that! Well, that “old” relic of an Act has been severely watered down over the years.
The Myth of Posse Comitatus
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/trebilcock.htm
And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Constitutional Expert: “President Obama … Says That He Can Kill You On His Own Discretion” Without Charge or Trial
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/constitutional-expert-%E2%80%9Cpresident-obama-%E2%80%A6-says-he-can-kill-you-his-own-discretion-without
Stand while you still have the means to effect change.
And darn near every single one of those was cheered by the public as "a new weapon in the war on drugs".
By the way, you missed RICO, and Forfeiture laws.
Two non-argumentative things, please..
1. Tom, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a misinterpretation of the commandment. It means "Thou Shalt Do No Murder".
2. Path, I honestly don't know what you're trying to get me to understand in your last post.
Joe
Yes, You and I know that, just like "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live" is actually a death sentence for poisoners.
But how many others know that ?
In fact, it makes it's use even more appropriate in the post you got it from.
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Regardless, of NDAA,....
Just some food for thought,....connect the dots...
As I mentioned before, you will start to see the Government accelerate their movements in order to further consolidate power and control over the populace, militarization of LE is just a start.
DHS Seeks Industry Feedback on Draft Proposal for Wide Scale Surveillance in U.S.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dhs-looks-for-feedback-on-potentially-massive-surveillance-project-on-u-s-soil/
They will use fear and intimidation to show the sheeple they are out-gunned and out-maneuvered,
Federal “Training” Assault on Social Security Office Startles FL Locals
http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield
You will see the continued prepping of Civilian Law Enforcement with advanced Military Grade weaponry
Local Cops Ready for War With Homeland Security-Funded Military Weapons
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/20/local-cops-ready-for-war-with-homeland-security-funded-military-weapons.html
Police employ Predator drone spy planes on home front
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/10/nation/la-na-drone-arrest-20111211
Why the militarization of local police needs to stop
http://www.tgdaily.com/opinion/60457-why-the-militarization-of-local-police-needs-to-stop
And once communications are locked down and dissent controlled,
...
U.S. Military/Civilian Law Enforcement Operations
http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/NEWS.html?article=9653697
OK since you're sounding like an anti-
If the police can't have access to former military equipment why should you?
We'll start with the easy ones:
1911, AR-15, M1A....
SAA, Sharps....
Night sights, red dot optics,...
How about:
microwave ovens (designed as an offshoot of radar)
the Internet (developed by DARPA, look up ARPANET)
your computer
GPS
Cell phones
I know what you are saying, Hey we have the Posse Comitatus Act, they can’t do that! Well, that “old” relic of an Act has been severely watered down over the years.
The Myth of Posse Comitatus
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/trebilcock.htm
What the author fails to mention is that military may be deployed they do not have arrest powers over US citizens. They can detain an individual breaking the law but cannot charge them, they must be arrested and charged by LE. As an example, while at Lemoore if I found a civilian DUI I could only hold them for Highway Patrol or the Sheriffs Office. Katrina had a laarge scale deployment in a disaster situation but none of the military personnel could actually arrest someone, they had to turn them over to LE.
And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Where do you get that? Infowars? Ron Paul?
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OK since you're sounding like an anti-
If the police can't have access to former military equipment why should you?
We'll start with the easy ones:
1911, AR-15, M1A....
SAA, Sharps....
Night sights, red dot optics,...
How about:
microwave ovens (designed as an offshoot of radar)
the Internet (developed by DARPA, look up ARPANET)
your computer
GPS
Cell phones
What the author fails to mention is that military may be deployed they do not have arrest powers over US citizens. They can detain an individual breaking the law but cannot charge them, they must be arrested and charged by LE. As an example, while at Lemoore if I found a civilian DUI I could only hold them for Highway Patrol or the Sheriffs Office. Katrina had a laarge scale deployment in a disaster situation but none of the military personnel could actually arrest someone, they had to turn them over to LE.
Where do you get that? Infowars? Ron Paul?
The really sad thing J is that a crack head, would actually have gotten it the 3rd or 4th time we posted the damn thing , the ones that can read any way. :-\
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And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Where do you get that? Infowars? Ron Paul?
The "taking out" of Al-Awaki was a pretty big national story,....
I don't mind the po-po utilizing better equip. They have been under-gunned for decades. The diff is the discipline and structure of the training, tactics, and ego's involved.
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And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Where do you get that? Infowars? Ron Paul?
The "taking out" of Al-Awaki was a pretty big national story,....
I don't mind the po-po utilizing better equip. They have been under-gunned for decades. The diff is the discipline and structure of the training, tactics, and ego's involved.
Problem isn't that the police have adequate weapons. The problem is that they have them and have the attitude their function is to ride roughshod on the civilian population And that attitude is what is being fed by actions that make them believe there "beat" is a war zone and military tactics and authority are valid SOP for dealing with the populace.
What is also interesting is that the Powers That Be do nothing to nip the criminal element in the bud...with strong sentencing, stopping illegal immigration, etc., but, instead, work to make the honest citizen defenseless while giving the local police the equipment and training and conditioning to handle military style operations against any civilian opposition to the government.
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And now that the Federal Government has “strengthened” their hand by unconstitutionally grabing the power to Kill or Detain a American Citizen, without charges, without trial and without judicial over sight… your Liberty is in peril.
Where do you get that? Infowars? Ron Paul?
The "taking out" of Al-Awaki was a pretty big national story,....
I don't mind the po-po utilizing better equip. They have been under-gunned for decades. The diff is the discipline and structure of the training, tactics, and ego's involved.
It was also several months before the NDAA that several are erroneously shrieking about here.
After reading some of the strident crap posted here I find it hilarious, and quite hypocritical to go back and read the sh!t I took about saying that whacking Al-Awaki with out trial was wrong.
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It was also several months before the NDAA that several are erroneously shrieking about here.
After reading some of the strident crap posted here I find it hilarious, and quite hypocritical to go back and read the sh!t I took about saying that whacking Al-Awaki with out trial was wrong.
You didn't get any from me, as I recall, but the silly bastard didn't get mistreated when he deployed himself to the battlefield to shoot at American Soldiers. They killed his ass just like they would have any other SOB stupid enough to pull that kind of crap.. He volunteered for the post. Nobody forced him..
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You didn't get any from me, as I recall, but the silly bastard didn't get mistreated when he deployed himself to the battlefield to shoot at American Soldiers. They killed his ass just like they would have any other SOB stupid enough to pull that kind of crap.. He volunteered for the post. Nobody forced him..
Since he was not killed in battle, he was specifically targeted for assassination, your approval of that means you think it IS OK to do what the NDAA is incorrectly claimed to allow.
Locking a citizen up indefinitely with out trial is a hell of a lot less extreme than killing a citizen with out trial.
Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.
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Since he was not killed in battle, he was specifically targeted for assassination, your approval of that means you think it IS OK to do what the NDAA is incorrectly claimed to allow.
Locking a citizen up indefinitely with out trial is a hell of a lot less extreme than killing a citizen with out trial.
Make up your mind, you can't have it both ways.
Do you equate a guy who had declared to have, and in fact had gone overseas to actively fight against deployed US Military, to US Citizens on US soil organizing to, and in fact lobbying the Government for redress of grievances? Really?
So you believe that joining Oath Keepers should be treated the same by the Government as joining Al Qaeda?
The Government, or at least the Administration is moving quickly towards treating these two the same. You say that I have to do the same in order to be intellectually consistant?
Are you a terrorist? You disagree with the actions and attitudes of the Government. So did he. If I were still a soldier and you paid me a visit in Iraq to put a round or shrapnel in my gut, would I be out of line in in removing the bulk of your cranium or center mass?
Now, you want me to treat you the same for talking on a forum dedicated to returning the government to the Constitutional framework from which it was taken, to you shooting some Specialist in a Motorpool in Kabul. I simply don't treat those two the same. You say we should?
As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that. I don't love air so much that I would give my liberty to keep it. Screw that.. The French do that, not me.. I can gain more in death for myself and all of us, than sitting in a box somewhere, as long as I can make the guy who just followed orders to pay his mortgage think about "WHY" what he's doing is a good idea..
What was that NH Motto? Live Free or Die? Sometimes I think you guys forget why the country exists in the first place..
Don't get lost in my incoherent rambling, please.. I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO. I can't make what you're asking me say anything else. If I'm wrong in that summation of your position, please let me know..
I feel like plugging this in here, even though it doesn't quite fit here..
I spent 2010, (along with personal reasons,) having seen the writing on the wall, making a life for myself in Chile.
I had a reliable truck, frineds, a place to live, a chruch home, permanent residency and enough to live modestly on VA Disability.. I couldn't do it.. I'm an American and I couldn't do the Ex-Pat thing. I either left or spent all that I had to get my wife in and me back, so I could do this.. Fight for the remnant of the idea of being a free American..
That country has the largest population of Palestinians outside of Jordan and Israel, as many Jews, tons of old NAZIs and two generations hence, and very few Americans, almost nobody of African extraction, a "mafia" but no "gangs", no real drug problems, a modest culture where nobody was starving, cheap healthcare that's as good as it is here, the Cops carry Taurus .38s with no extra rounds, and everybody got along just fine.. (And except for the Communists, they still love Americans)
Chile wasn't perfect, but we should be so fortunate to have such peace in our culture here.. (It was like here in the 50s, but without the wife-beaters.)
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Jumping in 1/2 cocked as I do at times, there are great guys in disagreement here. My take on things is that US Citzens should receive their protections....if I guy on the battlefield is US and shooting at US soldiers it's like the same guy here shooting at police....just so far in recent history it's been in another country. If the guy overseas is a shooter and is hanging around with a group of bad guy shooters that endanger troops I paint that in like context, rightly or wrongly, as a gang member of a gang gone beserk where the police can't safely access the guy they want to apprehend or have been lethally assaulted by someone in the gang and the gang member gets sniper treatment.
Some of that may roll as the "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" thingey because the "good guys" are really on our side, some of that not so much. Is it that we have constitutional guarantees and processes to guard not so much against the "good guys" who might be wrongly getting a "good guy" in some misunderstanding because it is "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" OK to cap a thug, or that everyone is treated equally. Yes we have misunderstandings? Yes we have bad guys who should be taken down but aren't. If everyone is treated equally then it's hard, not impossible, for a sub-culture of a people to say they are being mistreated...which says the family may cry the perp was wrongly treated but the sub-culture population the perp is from won't take strong issue against a fair process which to me means we enjoy fruits of a peaceful and civil society.
It would be simple minded to deny that there has been unfairness in judgments and actions in the nation's past; but I think more narcissic to think we are more fair today then before. Favoritism and populist belief is steamrolling over fair and due process....anyone over 30 has witnessed this if they have had their eyes partially open and their heads 1/2 on straight. We have news media that lies pretty much all the time. We have politicians that lie pretty much all the time. We have a population with particular subcultures that pretty much lie to "outsiders" when it suits their beliefs or aims to their benefit (or benefits).
We are witnessing a nation in serious decline who has lost it's moral underpinnings. Denial is a natural part of such a process and we see it widespread in the voting public and people (wishing it will go away) we know at home. A danger of ours is that the inmates are running the aslylum....the liars and thieves among us who are leaders are not being called out for being liars and thieves so much as they are being praised as good guys by lying media and narcissic supporters who will not face facts. Show a downhome boy or girl (maybe your grandma, mother, father, grandpa, uncle, aunt, etc....whatever) the planks in the Democratic party without telling them who it is (or tell them it's the Republicans for a laugh) and it is not surprising they disagree with most of planks....partially it's the populist opinion passed down from generations that they cling too. It's easier to not think. It's easier to be intellectually dishonest and look at today's benefit and blot out tomorrow's train wreck...hey, tomorrow will take care of itself won't it (perhaps in chains)....looking out for one's self (to the point of rank selfishness and beyond) and not considering the consequences of selling out is reckless and destructive. We're not going to change people, they have to change themselves and the best catalyst is personal pain and loss to some level.
A bad thing nowis that the people may change away from light to socialist darkness because they are ignorant, uneducated and berift of necessary morality like telling the truth, putting away selfish motives that disadvantage others, etc.
It benefits us all if we are treated equally under the law. It protects you and I when dishonest, mean-spirited and evil people who are elevated to public office by populist opinion mistreat people and the process protects us from them and vice versa. In that, we should support due process under the law for all citizens and treat everyone equally.
Today we are a nation at a tipping point if we haven't passed that already. We have enough processes and bureacracy maintaining the old ways that made this nation great that it is lulling people to sleep at the danger we now face by supplanting and supporting denial of the obvious. We have leaders who disregard law and equal treatment. We are beset with lying news reporters and editorialists who have an agenda at odds with what this nation was created and stands for. We have allowed sub-cultures to be created and nourished as victims who lie for personal gain (selfishness). We are beginning to reap the benefits of an education system that has indoctrinated children with the trappings of communism and socialism in opposition to the freedom and responsibilty so cherished by most on this board. We have a growing population of police and military trained to rightfully take orders coming from the education system that imposed liberal/socials ideals and demonized freedom and responsibility.
So guys, we have confusion imposed upon us. We are in transition as a nation. People who were educated with balance and fairness are reaching the ends of their careers and lives and are being replaced with people educated with aims and goals of leftists/liberals which insures this problem will grow. We need to get back to our constitutional laws but we have a government gone wild, rotten at the top with a lot of good people in the middle who will take orders from bad people and quite possibly in doing so will spell the end of the United States of America.
This thread obviously has men of like mind in disagreement over details that I think in large portion stem from the confusion thrust upon us. Unless one is in denial it should be clear that the law means nothing to the evil men who now run our country. We need equal protection in our bureacracies and legal processes which means the bad guy benefits too. So I am concerned when military trains and supplants police in this nation not so much because the people, intent, practices and legal basis may be not have been good, but that it can soon be so easily misused by evil people and as such aid in the demise of this nation.
Will the nation pull out? Only God knows.
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I feel like plugging this in here, even though it doesn't quite fit here..
I spent 2010, (along with personal reasons,) having seen the writing on the wall, making a life for myself in Chile.
I had a reliable truck, frineds, a place to live, a chruch home, permanent residency and enough to live modestly on VA Disability.. I couldn't do it.. I'm an American and I couldn't do the Ex-Pat thing. I either left or spent all that I had to get my wife in and me back, so I could do this.. Fight for the remnant of the idea of being a free American..
That country has the largest population of Palestinians outside of Jordan and Israel, as many Jews, tons of old NAZIs and two generations hence, and very few Americans, almost nobody of African extraction, a "mafia" but no "gangs", no real drug problems, a modest culture where nobody was starving, cheap healthcare that's as good as it is here, the Cops carry Taurus .38s with no extra rounds, and everybody got along just fine.. (And except for the Communists, they still love Americans)
Chile wasn't perfect, but we should be so fortunate to have such peace in our culture here.. (It was like here in the 50s, but without the wife-beaters.)
A question pertaining to your off topic statement here...seriously...what are Chile's civilian gun laws like?
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Santa posted :
As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that
That isn't what I said, what I said was that it was a more extreme action for the G to take, you can release a prisoner, you can't unexecute some one.
Santa Posted :
I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO
They are both US citizens entitled to the same protections under the law. If it is OK to murder the AQ guy on sight then it is also OK to whack the Oath keeper if he breaks a law.
You can not have one set of laws for people you agree with and another set for people you don't agree with.
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I would bring up a point. My understanding is that the Oath Keepers are about keeping the laws and not breaking them in that they strive to keep the law and would pledge to disavow unlawful orders. If that's true, in my mind there would be no lawful basis for whacking an Oath Keeper and such an action would be manslaughter at the least (or just following orders, of course).
But I must agree, all citizens must be afforded the same protections.
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In Chile, only a Natrualized Citizen may own or posess a firearm. Legally, you can hire a guide and hunt whatever species allowed, but technically, you can't even touch a gun.. The way that works is that the guyde carries the rifle and hands it to you to take the shot, and you pass it back..
It's pretty complicated once you get into self defense. You can get a weapons charge from having a corkscrew if you use it to kill someone they think didn't have it coming.. It's based on "Reasonable Force", that is to say, was he trying to kill you or just hurt you.. It's not a violent culture but the Justice System is a European model..
I could own a crossbow with broadheads..
Tom, I'll get into yours later..
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Santa posted :
As far as killing me being less preferable to losing my freedom, I can't say that
1. That isn't what I said, what I said was that it was a more extreme action for the G to take, you can release a prisoner, you can't unexecute some one.
Santa Posted :
I question your idea of equivocating an Oath Keepers member here in the US with a member of Al Qaeda in a hot AO
2. They are both US citizens entitled to the same protections under the law. If it is OK to murder the AQ guy on sight then it is also OK to whack the Oath keeper if he breaks a law.
You can not have one set of laws for people you agree with and another set for people you don't agree with.
1. Lawyers and arrest warrants aren't the best use of infantry/combat arms, regardless of training. Do you want to be the guy who takes a round trying to bring this guy back to NY for a civilian trial? The guy isn't a victim of circumstance. He chose to go and do what he did. I'll at least take him at his word.. I'm not gonna flog this one anymore. We may have to agree to disagree..
As far as a personal preference, I'd rather die than go to prison. I say this as one who's had the benefit of going to prison, and the privilege of having the keys to let myself out at the end of my shift.. That's a choice that I'll only have to make if I'm left no other choice. Of the ways to die, prison isn't one I would choose. Without tools or advance warning, I no longer have the ablity to defend myself. I am helpless..
2. US soil does make a difference (in my troubled mind). That's why .mil and CIA aren't allowed to operate on US soil. When we decide to defend the borders, we can discuss that..
Oath Keepers aren't perverting the Constitution. They aren't taking up arms to overthrow the gov't. If any of us are forced to grab a gun, it will be to defend our personal freedom or safety, only. I suspect that most of us will go along quietly. I don't know, and none of us will till it's done.. Again, I'm done flogging this horse. The Admin thinks it can do what you say that it can't. Great.. We'll see.
It seems to me like the only ones who get a trial are the ones who fire the first shot.
The ones who just want to be left alone tend to not get a trial. They just get shot..
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The intellectual gymnastics involved in your post make my head hurt .
You are a hypocrite who wants to justify killing people you don't agree with with out due process but it violates the Constitution if some one wants to do it to you.
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The intellectual gymnastics involved in your post make my head hurt .
You are a hypocrite who wants to justify killing people you don't agree with with out due process but it violates the Constitution if some one wants to do it to you.
Tom, your rigidity is on full display again. There is a very clear difference between an American citizen in a hostile war zone giving aid and comfort to the enemy OTOH, and an American citizen on US home soil supporting the US Constitution and demanding that the .gov comply with the Constitution's restrictions and limits on .gov power and authority against the citizens.
I can't recall who said it, but the old saying - it is always right to support your country against your government, it is never right to support your government against your country - applies here. I think most of us here are troubled by the .gov actions over the past 20+ years, especially the recent actions of the current POS occupying the WH. Alawaki is dead, we can do nothing about that, even though some of us think he had it coming for the whole "aid and comfort" thing he was doing.
Instead, we should be seeking any leverage we can to ensure that the .gov respect and complies with the US Constitution. Attacking each other here does not exactly advance that cause.
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Tom, your rigidity is on full display again. There is a very clear difference between an American citizen in a hostile war zone giving aid and comfort to the enemy OTOH, and an American citizen on US home soil supporting the US Constitution and demanding that the .gov comply with the Constitution's restrictions and limits on .gov power and authority against the citizens.
I can't recall who said it, but the old saying - it is always right to support your country against your government, it is never right to support your government against your country - applies here. I think most of us here are troubled by the .gov actions over the past 20+ years, especially the recent actions of the current POS occupying the WH. Alawaki is dead, we can do nothing about that, even though some of us think he had it coming for the whole "aid and comfort" thing he was doing.
Instead, we should be seeking any leverage we can to ensure that the .gov respect and complies with the US Constitution. Attacking each other here does not exactly advance that cause.
If both are doing something that violates the law then there is no difference at all and both are entitled to the same protections.
Unless you want to argue that the Constitution is a "living document" that needs to be "interpreted" by your betters.
Or are you saying that if the G can get you to "step across this line", (cross the border out of the country) they can then do anything they want to you ?
Or are you saying that govt sponsored murder is OK as long as it just Targets "Ragheads" ?
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If you had a gang member that had been indicted for murder, assaulting police, etc....would the police not go after him? It is stupid bravado and arrogant self-importance combined with the intoxication of power to say go and kill him which is I think where BHO is. That having been said, the police would go after a gang member as directed and attempt an arrest with some certain knowledge the perp is armed and dangerous. Outright assasination (sniping without door knocking, for instance) would be a violation except in mitigating circumstances like holding a hostage, etc.
The issue here is a failing nation. The Constitution is not going to protect us from evil men because the Constitution is only a dead piece of paper, not something to be worshipped. Men and women in law enforcement and/or military who honestly adhere to the Constitution may protect us; citizens may protect us or we may protect ourselves. When the system begins to rot from inside, as now, this is where we are. The issue here is bigger than thumping our chests about the Constitution about a particular case and how a dead piece of paper protects us when we've lost the foundations and morality that produced the Constitution...it's more about where are we on a broad level and what do we do from here?
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If you had a gang member that had been indicted for murder, assaulting police, etc....would the police not go after him? It is stupid bravado and arrogant self-importance combined with the intoxication of power to say go and kill him which is I think where BHO is. That having been said, the police would go after a gang member as directed and attempt an arrest with some certain knowledge the perp is armed and dangerous. Outright assasination (sniping without door knocking, for instance) would be a violation except in mitigating circumstances like holding a hostage, etc.
The issue here is a failing nation. The Constitution is not going to protect us from evil men because the Constitution is only a dead piece of paper, not something to be worshipped. Men and women in law enforcement and/or military who honestly adhere to the Constitution may protect us; citizens may protect us or we may protect ourselves. When the system begins to rot from inside, as now, this is where we are. The issue here is bigger than thumping our chests about the Constitution about a particular case and how a dead piece of paper protects us when we've lost the foundations and morality that produced the Constitution...it's more about where are we on a broad level and what do we do from here?
Because most just watch American Idol and don't give a crap about it until it's their ox getting gored.
Listen to the wailing and gnashing teeth when some one proposes another anti gun law, (although they sat back and allowed that as well for 60 years with out even asking for Vaseline )
But no one said crap about the erosion of the 4th and 5th amendments over the years, or the steady govt. erosion of the 10th amendment because either "it was just aimed at drug dealers" or they were getting something for what seemed like nothing.
Most deserve to be screwed by the G since they allowed it to happen.
Why should I care about those cattle cars ? I'm not a Jew.
Remember, Adolph Hitler was elected in a general election and everything the Nazi's did was legal under German laws passed through their legislature.
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Not trying to rekindle an arguement but here's a news flash on individual States (Virginia) attempting to put a halt to it..
http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2012/01/nullify-the-ndaa-virginia-house-bill-1660/
Guess not everybody got the memo, huh..
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Politicians talking about something they haven't read ?
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you !
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::)
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Either they haven't read it, as Ron Paul so aptly showed earlier, or <gasp> it's a political ploy to appease the portions of thier populace that haven't.
"shhh, I know it's moot but people are complaining, so if we have a law that does nothing we look like we're doing SOMETHING."
Cause THAT never happens... :o
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Either they haven't read it, as Ron Paul so aptly showed earlier, or <gasp> it's a political ploy to appease the portions of thier populace that haven't.
"shhh, I know it's moot but people are complaining, so if we have a law that does nothing we look like we're doing SOMETHING."
Cause THAT never happens... :o
Reminds me of "fighting crime" with gun control. ::)