The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: bluesman001 on February 01, 2012, 10:49:29 AM
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Ok,
I have $500 (soon to be $650). I am interested in either:
1) AR15
2) Mini-14
3) AK
I have a line on a Mini 14 tactical with one 20 rd mag for $500 even. Or I can wait and try to get an AR when I get more $$. I am not going to war, and I won't rule out Zombie hunting. This weapon will be a home defender/range shooter.
Thoughts?!
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DPMS makes the Sportical AR in your price range. Last I saw, they came w/3-30 rd. mags. Check out their web site. Might even be able to find a dealer listed near you.
FWIW
Richard
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For that price range, I like the S&W M&P15 Sport. Its similar to the sportical that Ellis recommended.
This is the CA compliant version but the regular version is same price.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_763_977/products_id/71971/SWL+MP15SPORT+811038+5.56+16+FXMAG+10
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I have many of all 3. All make difficult choices because they are all so desirable. I can honestly say when I go to the range I usually take 2 or all three of the ones you outlined. The only thing than governs my choice on any given day is my willingness to clean all of them after a day at the range. $650.00 puts you into the range of a very good AK-47, (Polish 1960 milled comes to mind, or else an Arsenal). Or else any of the newer Ruger Mini 14 Tactical Models. That same money will get you an entry level AR-15, which you can doll up later as funds become more prevalent. It all comes down to which one you happen to favor the most. For me it came AR-15 first, AK-47 second, and finally the Mini 14 third.
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Since it will be a range gun I would skip the Mini 14 due to lackluster accuracy.
If you want an "OK" shooter, the AK is less expensive with a bit more after market stuff available.
The AR is by far the most accurate , versatile, and adaptable of the 3.
Once you have the lower receiver it is a simple matter to reconfigure to any variation you want.
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Well, an AK (decent one) and you'll have money left over to buy a fair bunch of ammo. Mags are cheap(er).
Home defense/shooter? At those closer ranges; Get the AK...Take the larger rd./cheaper ammo & mags, and the accessories for the AK have really become very good.
Better for zombie hunting anyway. Not as finicky with ammo. easy to clean, maintain, and can be lubed with old lawnmower oil.
For corrosive ammo, pee down the barrel and reload... ::)
I own the Saiga AK and changed the stock and handguard,,,,, at 100yds. it thumps what I aim at. I paid less than $400 for it NIB.
Here's my son with the Saiga.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/rangejuly006.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/DSCF1552.jpg)
Zombie slaying approved...
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Nice AK TW.
You could build your own AR15 for $650.
Choice is yours bluesman. I always joke that with a Glock and an AK you cannot got wrong. I just happened to get an AR15 to partner with my Glocks.
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I agree get the AK. Ammo is plentiful and its brute simple.
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I appreciate the replies so far.
I am not disregarding, but find myself drawn to the AR (blame the USMC for giving me an M16 to carry). Anyways, I have a line on a couple rifles and want opinions on brand.
1) Should they restock in the near future - I would love a Spikes Tactical M4 style.
2) Model 1 XM177 A3 upper on a Spikes lower
3) Del Ton flat top upper on Plum Crazy lower
I have $600, but will soon have a bit more. Thanks!
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Spike's are great. Go with the flat top.
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Spike's are great. Go with the flat top.
+1
Lots more options available.
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This is a build that I am working on for my brother in law. He is currently deployed and when he gets back, I'm giving it to him.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/Capbyrd/My%20Guns/48a1e11c.jpg)
Ive got 530 bucks in this if you include shipping and transfer fees. All it needs is a rear sight or optic and its good to go.
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https://www.del-ton.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=EXTREME316
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an expert on one of the forums commented that my Rock River 16" intermediate gas upper is a piece of junk (on an ArmaLite lower with RRA Natiional Match trigger and 4x32 ACOG)... might be, but will shoot five shot 4" groups at 400m with S&B 55 grain ammo
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an expert on one of the forums commented that my Rock River 16" intermediate gas upper is a piece of junk (on an ArmaLite lower with RRA Natiional Match trigger and 4x32 ACOG)... might be, but will shoot five shot 4" groups at 400m with S&B 55 grain ammo
That kind of AR snobbery has been kicked around here many times, and its unfortunate. I have experienced it first hand as well. Like I posted before regarding my own AR build, I want a "work" truck, not a show car. I can even beat the BG up with it, without having to worry about breaking anything, like high dollar accessories and optics.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/FaceliftForFrank004.jpg)
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an expert on one of the forums commented that my Rock River 16" intermediate gas upper is a piece of junk (on an ArmaLite lower with RRA Natiional Match trigger and 4x32 ACOG)... might be, but will shoot five shot 4" groups at 400m with S&B 55 grain ammo
I guess a 1/2 MOA isn't good enough for some people!
;)
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Don't waste your money on Spikes. Nothing wrong with the stuff but your paying for a trendy name. Their stuff comes off the same forge as R Guns, Surplus Ammo & Arms and other brands. Look at Palmetto State Armory, you can't beat their quality for the money. Buy one of their lowers, $79.95 right now but they run $49.95 specials a lot so watch for them. You can get their classic lower build kit for $99.95 or the Magpul MOE kit for $139.95. Lowers are super easy to build. If you want a basic M4 configuration their complete upper is about $389.95 with BCG & CH. You can upgrade to an MOE handguard and MOE rear sight for around $65.
I'd personally run their flat top-Mid length light contour 14.7" upper that has the flash hider pinned and welded to 16.1" overall. I've got 3 of this configuration with all MOE furniture and if you shop their sales you can do it for right about you're $650 price point. You'll have a high quality optics ready rifle that comes in well under 7#. Don't waste your money on Model 1 or other garbage. PSA stuff is right on par with FNH manufacturing wise. I use them exclusively for budget builds and have never had a complaint. I've got a similarly configured Double Star factory rifle and the PSA rifle out shoots it at half the price. I'm a complete AR snob running almost all Noveske, LaRue, VLTOR uppers and POF stuff these days but I only use PSA for my budget, knock around and "Storage" rifles. Great customer service too. I live right down the street from Spikes and have many other options close by but PSA has done me right. For the record, I have no affiliation with them other than wanting to see a good business succeed.http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05.html)
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twyacht...I'm a 3 gun game player, and do have top of the line optics (Trijicon 4x32 TA01 ACOG on my primary, and 1.5x16 ACOG on my short game carbine)...at 64 with a 3.75 diopter astigmatism I need all the help I can get.. the horizontal stadia lines subtend 19" at their respective distances, so half a stadia line (upwind) is about 10"....it was windy at Ft Benning last year on the sniper range...don't remember if the RO called the hit at 1.5 or 2 upwind lines (15 or 20") on the 400m ten inch flash target ....just traded for a TA31F so will take a little time to sight it in
unless you really need a collapsible stock, look into a VietNam era A1 stock.... better length of pull for average sized person, and better cheek weld, unless you get a Crane stock with the cheek piece
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thanks les snyder, good info, glad to see your eyes can still get hits with great optics. bafsu92 is one of the go to "build/parts" guys here at DRTV, and I heeded his advice on my particular build. Now I'm hooked. (thanks bafsu)... ;)
Mine was built kinda "purpose" specific,...I already own a Sig556 with a large scope and bipod, and was never an AR fan per se,...but I chose the VLTOR SOPMOD collapsible stock for the AR build. It has adjustable cheek-weld positions and is the one I really felt comfortable with.
My intentions for my carbine was CQ/SD, easy to sweep, short and sweet, utilizing the K.I.S.S. approach. Although, the Colt HBAR barrel, and Miculek Comp. really make recoil more like a .22LR, and it is very accurate to 100 yds., I'm sure it would perform out farther. (but my local range only goes to 100yds.) :-\
I have always loved the traditional lines of the A1 stock and "M16" appeal, that Stoner designed. However, I will be stepping up to building a "copy" of the LWRC REPR in .308... 22-24" bull barrel, with some "custom" goodies, as the "reach out" rifle. Plus I can build one, for less than the price of the LWRC.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/rflr_repr-tfb.jpg)
I'll probably stick with the "evil" black,...but this one is close to the goal.... ;D
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the Crane (Vltor) SOPMOD cheekpiece collapsible stock prototype was built in a friends garage (he edited the SOPMOD manual)... I shoot a slightly modified Miculek comp...open up the threaded boss and rear wiper with the minor diameter hole needed to thread 1/2x28...finish threads in the boss, index with shim washers to get rid of the lock nut.... I shoot an Enidine hydraulic buffer in my game gun, and with the Miculek comp and 4x scope do not come off target at 400m
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I shoot an Enidine hydraulic buffer in my game gun, and with the Miculek comp and 4x scope do not come off target at 400m
I have an Enidine Hyd. Buffer, however, the bolt does not lock open on the last round, so I returned to a stock buffer. Any thoughts?
Does the buffer have to "break in"? All other functions are fine, just the last round holding the bolt open.
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mine is for a full sized rifle not the carbine, though I use a slightly shorter stock... I clipped a couple of coils off the recoil spring... forgot about that mod until you mentioned it.... since original installation I have about 4 years years troublefree with about 150 rounds a month thru it, including added practice for the last 4 years at Ft Benning
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OK. I've never been on a build and have 3 plain Jane Bushie M4's.
What's the hydraulic buffer do for me that I would want one?
Why the VLTOR over, say, the Magpul?
I'm wondering this because I have a FailZero upper waiting on a Colt lower...actually the funds for a Colt Lower.
I tried and love the Bill Wilson drop in trigger...that's where I'm going for that...it has a great reset and break.
Next, I need to upgrade a Rock River .308 stock. I'm leaning towards the Magpul PRS...any recommendations for me on a stock?
This one is for precision shooting/hunting at distance so I'm not using it for close in work.
Money matters, but not as much as good equipment.
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What's the hydraulic buffer do for me that I would want one?
For me, in addition/combination to the Comp., it softens what little recoil there is anyway, muzzle climb in rapid fire is non-existent, and it changes some of the famous "ping" noise from the buffer tube as it is fired. Other than that a good Comp. is all you need.
If your going with a carbine length tube/stock, I'll mail you mine to try if you want.
Why the VLTOR over, say, the Magpul?
No reason other than personal preference.
The PRS is a nice stock, lots of good ones out there...Perhaps les, bafsu, or another will chime in with specifics for a .308. Especially for stationary "longer" range work.
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Next, I need to upgrade a Rock River .308 stock. I'm leaning towards the Magpul PRS...any recommendations for me on a stock?
This one is for precision shooting/hunting at distance so I'm not using it for close in work.
I got an email about one of these the other day, looks like a nice stock. I may have to try one on my Rem (DPMS) R-25 308.
Don't know what Rock River model you are using, you might want to call them.
From Magpul's site: Stock is not compatible with Bushmaster BAR-10 and Rock River Arms LAR-8 due to additional charging handle to cheek riser interference issues.
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG308/181
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Thanks for the buffer information.
Also for the Magpul info. Unfortunately, I have an LAR-8...so I'll have to not go the PRS route for now.
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Thanks for the buffer information.
Also for the Magpul info. Unfortunately, I have an LAR-8...so I'll have to not go the PRS route for now.
I don't have a lot of experience with 7.62 platform AR's but I'd look at the Magpul CTR with a LaRue RISR. You get the benefit of the higher cheek weld for shooting a scoped rifle but the RISR moves out of the way of the charging handle. If you don't need the riser height I'd go with something like a VLTOR EMOD or a LMT SOPMOD that has a wider comb edge for a little more cheek purchase without added height. Also look at something like the Ergo E93, it can be setup for precision work as well.
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as twyacht commented... the Enidine (rifle length buffer) compliments my modified Miculek comp to the point that the 4x32 does not come off target with a good rest at 400m.....like I've commented on several occasions, I'm a game player but don't think I'd use one on a serious social rifle as it adds to the reliability concerns...definitely get one of the neoprine 1/8" "O" rings for the extractor spring (ACE hardware)...make sure that your bolt carrier has a shrouded firing pin...I really like the Rock River NM triggers, but I don't get the pull under about 3 1/2#....I fit ambi safeties as I engage the safety every time I transition the carbines... I don't like the feel of rails, and have only a bottom rail on both 5.56 guns for a vertical forward grip that I use as a monopod....you need a full float tube for long range consistency... I have a rather large roll over close range sight system the entire length of the fore end on the 4x32 that duplicates a BoMar sight picture, which is good out to 100m...I use an Ergo grip to lengthen the grip to trigger distance
I touch my cheek to the charging handle on the 5.56 guns and find that the older A1 stock fits me better, and the rounded butt plate is easier to shoulder....I move the scope a little forward on the 7.62 gun